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26 May 2008 12:00 AM by Linda Needham Star rating in Jumilla,Spain. 302 forum posts Send private message

Linda Needham´s avatar

Martin - Abolex hosted a meeting in Jumilla at our house.
Below are the points from the meeting as David and I  understood them. 
Roysrellies (James) also attended with Linda, his wife.
Martin and James if any of this is not correct please comment.  I wont be offended.

This information only refers to Herrada del Tollo. San Jose Inversiones is being heard in a different court, albeit next door.
Some will have some of this info already as the meeting was last week but I hope it helps some to have a clearer view.

1.  Bank Guarantees
If you have a bank guarantee you have no need to take part in any of this administration process.   Your lawyer can exercise that bank guarantee.  The bank may delay but they have to pay you when your contract date expires.  They then become a creditor and claim back the money from Herrada del Tollo through the administration process.

2. Administration
The judge has granted Administration in the case of  H del  T. There is not therefore a case for litigation.

3. Creditors List
H del T have placed all there creditors on the list as far as Martin could see.  Those that were not there would possibly appear on the creditors list for San Jose Inversiones. The judge had not, at the time of our meeting, instructed H del T.  In the papers issued by the court it states that all British creditors should be notified in English by letter, email or whatever means H del T had of communication. They should explain in this communication, the process and what information needs to be supplied to the Administrators that will be appointed by the court. Once this is done you have 30 days to register your documents with the Administrators.

Please note that some of the addresses are incorrect:  In a separate email I asked Martin the question:

    1. who do they contact in the first instance to make sure SJ have the correct address if they have moved.

    “I would recommend people to fax / email San Jose informing them of their address.”


The creditors list will be published on the web in due course. In the same email I asked the question:

     2. www.publicidadconcursal.es. One needs a password and one needs to know where to look so is this     site for officials and legal people mainly?

    “I don't need any password, as this is a public page.
    Press "Deudores Concursados"
    On the drop down menu, press on "Concurso"
    Then type in "Herrada"

    It’s not there yet, anyway.”

This site is in Spanish but you should be able to find your name when it is published.

The purpose of the creditors list, (as buyers we are creditors when H del T hold our deposits on a property) and the administration process is to pay all creditors back.  Cash flow problems mean no build can go ahead unless something changes.
    i.e a company buys the development at some future date or a cash injection.

Martin felt the creditors list would grow but as it stood at the moment it appeared H de T had enough in assets to pay their creditors but had no idea of time frame.  The company will have to be audited.

We discussed this generally.  It is possible that as the site has taken too long to get of the ground and with the increase in labour, material costs, licence costs etc., and the number of properties sold, due to the current market conditions, it would not be cost effective to continue at current prices.  That could be a reason for H del T placing all creditors on the creditors list.  This however, was purely speculative.

4. Lawyers
It is not necessary by law to instruct a solicitor in this case because H del T have named you as a creditor.  However, if you do not have representation and things change or if there is a vote on any subject your interests will not be represented and therefore will not be notified. 
    i.e  if there was a vote required in regard to the number of creditors wishing to continue with the build.     or if money was being paid out you would not have any way of being notified.
Power of Attorney is not the same as it is in the UK.  It does not have the same powers but is necessary for a lawyer to act on your behalf.
The originals of your contract are required by the lawyer or administrator.  You can send copies if they are notarised by a notary.  I am not sure what the equivalent is in the UK.

As far as I can remember these were the main points discussed.

With regard to lawyers fees.  I have had many emails asking about fees. For the record following the meeting with Martin and having discounted Antonio for logistical reasons, below is copied from an email I sent the day after the meeting.  We put down Approx. 30,000 Euros. I have not asked any further questions about what this includes in the future, “should things change” because as he says there is no need rush yet. He had with him a document listing the scale of minimum fees as laid down by the Spanish Law, if I understood that correctly.

    “Regarding your situation, our fees would be 1.183 to be paid in two stages: 50% when we start, 50% on     completion of the administration process. This does not include Procurador (330 euros), Notary fees for     the POA (in Spain, around 60 euros), which I would organize for you to sign at your desired Notary.

In any case, a said yesterday, there is no reason to rush yet.

I hope this gets things in perspective a little for all.

_______________________

Linda Needham
La Alberquilla
Jumilla, Murcia


R4 308 For Rental



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26 May 2008 8:59 PM by redman Star rating. 235 forum posts Send private message

Linda,

Great work and thank Martin for his time, information and input.

Also something else that I believe to be correct is that if you have a Bank Guarantee that has expired, although legally still valid you will be treated as a creditor and need to make sure you are on the creditors list also.  Martin might want to confirm this.

Keep up the good work folks, there might be light at the end of the tunnel yet.

Regards,

Steve.


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26 May 2008 9:02 PM by TonyMal Star rating in Oxfordshire. 1090 forum posts Send private message

Hi Linda,
thanks for the report it gives us some more info to digest. Have you seen the comments on the general forum from Maria? The continuation of purchasing instead of going for the money is now seen as an option. Regarding the commercial feasabilty of SADM well there is about 200 million Euros to come on purchase contracts plus there are other plots to sell and SADM is a very different market from the coast ( and include Polaris in that)  
San Jose have declared an intention to go ahead with the build not onyl in the communication sent to us all but also in the Costa Blanca News.
I think that administrators will try to realise the contracts and complete properties etc  they are not just after income but protecting local jobs of around 3500.
All the best to you
I want my House
Tony R17 18




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26 May 2008 11:20 PM by Linda Needham Star rating in Jumilla,Spain. 302 forum posts Send private message

Linda Needham´s avatar
Postscript:

1. I should also have mentioned that with regard to the bank guarantee's.  You should make sure it is a valid bank guarantee and not a bank reference for Herrada del Tollo.  There have been some.
2. Martin also said that the fact that Herrada del Tollo had listed its creditors said a lot about the companies wish to pay back its creditors.  He does not often see that.

Yes I read that post Tonymal.  They just need the money to do it.


_______________________

Linda Needham
La Alberquilla
Jumilla, Murcia


R4 308 For Rental



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27 May 2008 12:10 AM by mattjo Star rating. 38 forum posts Send private message

In The Times to-day there was an article about the Costas, property prices have dropped 20% in the past twelve months and it is very difficult to sell at all. Spanish banks are tightening up on mortgages and are rejecting 6 out of 10 applications. I know that inland, particularly Jumilla, is a different proposition however, with the property crash in Spain I can see the developers point of view as it will probably be tremendously difficult to secure more sales, if the project were to go ahead. I think that we should all be thankful that there may be some prospect of getting our money back. I love Jumilla with all my heart but I must be realistic. Costs have increased and with the pound so low against the euro, who knows what the future may hold?   Many purchasers are at or near retirement, can they honestly believe that Santa Ana will offer them any quality of life during their lifetime other than living on a perpetual building site! On another note, what does ones occupation/profession have to do with negotiations, I am a surveyor with many years experience in the Uk construction industry. I fail to see how other members of this forum believe that stating their occupation has any bearing on their ability to negotiate a settlement, other than to make themselves feel important - typical Brits! I would like my property if it was completed within a reasonable time, with all amenities, however in the present situation I would rather have my money back - at least I would then be free to take advantage of market conditions and maybe pick up a bargain in the vicinity of Jumilla.




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27 May 2008 5:42 AM by TonyMal Star rating in Oxfordshire. 1090 forum posts Send private message

Hi Matjo,
I asked my spanish bank manager if the mortgage offer still stood for just that reason. To see if yes they would still stand by their mortgage offer and they even stood by the repayments by extending the period of repayments to overcome the credit crunch. Yes we all know the ex pat coastal property bubble has but but inland at Jumilla 50% of purchasers are Spanish and it is a totally different market.

As for stating your background it has nothing to do with making people feel big. It is a shame that you have such a low opinion of your co purchasers. I beleive, as do others, that the development of SADM is  viable and will go ahead. i am sorry that  you feel the way you do but that is your choice and i wish you luck in your journey through the Spanish Courts.By the way what is your plot number?

I want my house
All the best
Tony  R17 18  


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27 May 2008 6:48 AM by taxiparrots Star rating in Deepest Suffolk. 149 forum posts Send private message

TonyMal,
If you had a bank guarantee would you still be screaming "I want my house" at the top of your voice.I don't think so.So get real ,there is no water for a golf course at Jumilla and it is highly unlightly that this problem will be solved within the next four years if ever. Don't take my word for it ,do your own research.Without a golf course there will be no building


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27 May 2008 10:06 AM by Linda Needham Star rating in Jumilla,Spain. 302 forum posts Send private message

Linda Needham´s avatar
Hi Steve

Yes now you mention it ,I  think Martin said the same thing because Herrada del Tollo will have to pay the credit back to the bank after the bank pays the client.

Many thanks

_______________________

Linda Needham
La Alberquilla
Jumilla, Murcia


R4 308 For Rental



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27 May 2008 10:21 AM by roysrellies Star rating. 41 forum posts Send private message

Hi Linda. Just read your posting and that ties in with my recollection of the meeting. I believe that Martin told us that the Administration process for Herrada del Tollo was in Mercantile Court No1 in Alicante and that the similar process for San Jose would be in Mercantile Court No2. I think that anyone who was buying in Albatera will be on the creditors list presented to Court 2 if they have done so. 

I mentioned in an earlier posting that our Jumilla dream is over and I am convinced by Herrada's actions that our current contract with them is now at an end as they have ackowledged us as creditors. I also firmly believe that they cannot complete properties in Jumilla at the prices they agreed with us 4 or 5 years ago.   


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27 May 2008 3:39 PM by stevehollings Star rating in Leeds. 24 forum posts Send private message

stevehollings´s avatar
Thanks Linda and James - excellent info.

With regards to recent posts I have to agree with Roysrellies and Mattjo on the below:-
- I also firmly believe that they cannot complete properties in Jumilla at the prices they agreed with us 4 or 5 years ago.  
San Jose have to complete the whole infrastructure as part of the licence being approved therefore they will have costs to complete this for nearly 15,000 properties. Also there is no guarantee to complete hotel, shops or golf courses for this 15,000 or even the first phase of 3000.
-can see the developer’s point of view as it will probably be tremendously difficult to secure more sales. To be honest who would purchase from
San Jose or via agents on these developments knowing all the on-going and recent issues!
-Costs have increased and with the pound so low against the euro, who knows what the future may hold?   Many purchasers are at or near retirement, can they honestly believe that
Santa Ana will offer them any quality of life during their lifetime other than living on a perpetual building site! I would not like to risk completing on a property if there are likely to be any habitat licence issues, unfinished work or incomplete promised facilities. If we had any sort of 100% legal guarantee then this would be a different situation but I will wait to hear this from the courts.

Anyway, if I was offered 85% or more of the money I have deposited with
San Jose on 3 properties I would personally be more than happy with this. I know that we all have different circumstances and everyone it entitled to their own opinion and good luck to all.



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27 May 2008 7:07 PM by TonyMal Star rating in Oxfordshire. 1090 forum posts Send private message

Hi All,
i have read your remarks and must first ask who are you ? You are fairly vitriolic about SADM and even have some very strange logic regarding what I would do if I had a bank Gaurantee. I would have a get of jail free card and i could shout really loudly I want my House at no risk what so ever. So a little bit of an error there.

If you want to go for the money why be so upset that there are those of us who do not want to? I can not understand why you would mind if we want to say I iwant my House!  How does it effect you?

Now i had a chat with a branch of my bank in the City of London today and i laid out what is happening and what my Spanish bank manger told me....... Forget for a moment that it is Spain and you have your money there. Think as some one who is on the outside of all fo this.....

A total of over 3500 jobs at risk due to the intransigence of Banks and local goverment officials and it is on national TV and in the press. We have a socialist goverment and we brought out a new law to protect companies when they have a cash flow problem.  Who out of all of them benifits from San Jose not continuing to build and employ staff?
Well not the banks, they find that oops the goverment is putting pressure on to rationalise the debts and inject cah for the company to go on. We do not want 3500 people on the dole nor the local economy to drop. Thats a lot of jobs and people are demanding action. Politicians have to look for a way to save the company and oh yes there is allways that carrot of public money!  Sound familiar, we have seen this in the Uk and companies rescued and Spain has a Socialist goverment!

imagine if this was in the UK do you seriously think that the company would not be saved when it has assets and sales of around 200 million on the books. Just think how the banks, the politicians and the administrators would look and get treated if that happened. 

So back to my conversation in the Bank in the City of London, " The banks will not let it go down " I was told. I just wonder why they might have thought that.

Now the company carries on and the banks are happy, those who waited and then had the opportunity of going for the House are Ok but those who went for themoney? Well you can not buy another property yet, you need to get your money, the Courts are slow and you are so small compared to the big financial companies and it drags on for years. Yes years, not months but years. 

I recieved an email from my solicitor in Spain ofering very kindly to help me to get my money that would take years to get hols of. it really inspires confidence.

Me I am going for the House and if you want to comment have the courtoursy of putting your plot down with your posting.
All the best to you all, do what you want to do but,
I WANT MY HOUSE
TonyMal        R17 18





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27 May 2008 7:37 PM by TonyMal Star rating in Oxfordshire. 1090 forum posts Send private message

Hi All,
This was in an email frommy solicitor earlier today

"In regards to the fees for this legal procedure, we want to inform you that this will be a long process, and we can not determine at this stage how much will be the total amount of fees and costs involved. Normally the use in this type of cases is to request the clients at least a fund provision of 10% of the total amount that is claimed (your deposit), but in your case being already a client of this firm we will ask for a provision of only 6% of the total amount claimed. This provision will be use for the payment of the initial costs of procedure and we will present to you regular statements of all payments charged during the process. We will inform you exactly of the amount necessary to be transferred and the corresponding account details on the formal instruction sheet that we will send you upon the confirmation of your intention."

So?

I want my House  not a contract to bleed me dry before I have even got my money back! 
I want my House
Tony R17 18
 



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27 May 2008 8:33 PM by sarah12345 Star rating. 29 forum posts Send private message

Tony

I admire your faith but fear you are sadly misguided. The same arguments for not letting things happen due to damage to economy loss of jobs etc rang true when other companies have gone to the wall, when thousands of houses have been built illegally, ex pat houses have been pulled down and valncia land grab was at its peak. These have all affected both British those buyers and the spanish economy.

There are some facts that are definitive which are not going to go away no matter how much you scream that you want your house

1) this is a free market economy and the banks will let san jose go to the wall particularly if the director has misappropriated funds
2) house values have dropped and supply now is in excess of demand
3) as well as settling debts san jose would also need to find money for licenecs to build a non profitable building site
4) There are no licences for a golf course or any additional facilities and with environmental impactys this does not look likely
5) san joses reputation is now very unlikely to attract additional purchasers needed to make site at all profitable even if funds and permissions were not an issue.

I have no problem whatsoever with you saying you want your house and whilst your report was very nice it gave no real further factual information about the status of what is going on. Hope is ine but lets keep things realistic


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27 May 2008 9:06 PM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 forum posts Send private message

Tonymal

Hi.....we are on the Albatera site as you know, we were putting deposits on Santa anna on two Tulipans as off plan investments.  We decided not to because we couldnt get our heads around the size of the place.

Can i ask how many properties have deposits, how many built and how many still to come.

Also the commercial infrastructure, what is there now?  how many shops, pools, etc.  Im trying to get to grips with what is involved in the campaign to get your house?

Can you fill in some blanks for me please?

Brian


_______________________

Best wishes, Brian

 



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27 May 2008 9:12 PM by TonyMal Star rating in Oxfordshire. 1090 forum posts Send private message

Hi Sarah,
thanks for the comments but yet again where is your plot number. Are you actually a puchaser at SADM?

Normally it is a free market. But its  global credit crunch and at a time of economic slow down its a different picture and you had a differnt law in Spain before.  

coastal areas have dropped in value and why? Because the prices were inflated by the ex pats wanting to live by the sea .SADM 50% of the purchasers are Spanish different location different buyer different market. The new market is in the inland market and this appeals to a different purchaser but I am sure that you know that.

So where does this insight into the profitablity of a biuld come from? They have 200 Millions Euros of contracted sales on their books, yet gain 50% are locals and wheres the money come from. The banks, that is what the administrators are for, as they were in the UK for the Euro Tunnel. You live in a strange world if you think the administrators are worried about us at the moment. No they want to save the buisness, as the law now allows them to and there is a lot of pressure on them to do so. SADM is a good location and the most expensive part of any build is the cost of the land. It is only those who want to make a quick buck who want them to fail.

San Jose will attract purchasers if the projects go ahead. My brother is in a very senior position in a London banks and he is intersted in buying at SADM once all the fuss settles down. And once a company is given the finances to function  sales will happen. People are waiting to see what happens and if they can pick up a bargain. You obviuosly do not know people very well.

And as for realism open your eyes and see who makes money from all this mess! And yet again i ask are you part of SADM or forgive the question are you up to mischief and do you have an alternative agenda.

People can change things if they work together and listen to those who make it clear what their interests are! Especially when we representing purchasing power. You do not think it can work then why try to stop it happening? What is you interest in SADM and what is your plot number? 

I want my House and i am going to get it. Read Marias posting on the General Spanish Forum 
Wishing you well

Tony R17 18

 




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27 May 2008 10:32 PM by taxiparrots Star rating in Deepest Suffolk. 149 forum posts Send private message

TonyMal,
Can't see any strange logic. So you would use your 'get out of jail free' card and still shout please let me back inside ?  I love it.
By the way I don't see why I should give my plot number to you or anybody else.



This message was last edited by taxiparrots on 5/27/2008.


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27 May 2008 10:46 PM by mattjo Star rating. 38 forum posts Send private message

TonyMal

I see some name dropping in evidence:-

"my brother is in a very senior position in a London banks".

This does not alter the hard evidence:-

 San Jose went into administration because prices in the contracts are too low for construction costs today. If they
decided to go ahead, it could only be by increasing prices, by starting all over again. In today's market, not even this has a chance.
 
Hope your dreams come true.

Regards


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27 May 2008 10:59 PM by mab53 Star rating. 13 forum posts Send private message

Hi TonyMal,

Sarah has got it exactly right.  Even if San Jose survive administration, how could anyone trust them to do anything they promise - they never have so far and once out of administration, they are not bound by the courts.

I see you quote Euro Tunnel again - that's about the worst example of administration you could have chosen - it only survived because the debt was so large it would have taken the banks down with it and the English and French governments wrote off most of the debt.  Administration only works if the company's short-term realisable assets are greater than their immediate debts which is almost certainly not the case with San Jose because they can't sell either the land or houses that form most of their 'assets' because the Spanish housing market is in free fall and is likely to continue that way for quite a while yet.  Because of the pound's fall against the euro, Spanish property is now very unattractive to UK buyers - just think how much extra you'll now have to pay for your house you so badly want.

SADM is unique and in a beautiful location but without a building license or permission for the golf courses, shops and hotel, it's doomed to failure - all of San Jose's making.

I want my what is rightfully mine - a full refund with interest.

Michael.



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31 May 2008 10:43 AM by Abolex Star rating in Andalucia - Murcia -.... 136 forum posts Send private message

Abolex´s avatar
Dear all,
Just one quick clarification with regards to the meeting held at Linda Needham's house.
The administration process will be publicised in www.publicidadconcursal.es, but not the list of creditors.
This list can be accesed by any Lawyer that asks for it in Court.
Kind regards,


_______________________
Martin de La Herran Sabick Abogado / Lawyer (reg. 851 Jerez) www.abolex.es


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10 Jun 2008 12:13 PM by Abolex Star rating in Andalucia - Murcia -.... 136 forum posts Send private message

Abolex´s avatar
Hi all,
As promised, I do now have the list of creditors that have been recognised by "San Jose Inversiones y proyectos urbanisticos SA".
Anyone wondering if they have been included, please feel free to send a p.m. and I will answer as soon as possible.
Kind regards,

_______________________
Martin de La Herran Sabick Abogado / Lawyer (reg. 851 Jerez) www.abolex.es


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