To what extent is Spain a police state?

All the more reason to get this legally clarified so that consumers know their rights and obligations, especially when you read the following

100,000 vehicles in Malaga are without a valid ITV (June 2013).

An ITV is a legal requirement.

In Malaga 14% of vehicle fleet is now in excess of 20 years old, perhaps highlighting the importance of this issue and the safety concerns.

Without a valid ITV your insurance company is probably within its rights to claim back any payout it is forced to make from that policyholder.

Given the above, perhaps it's hardly surprising that the Police are trying to crack down on this. What is not acceptable however is to make the innocent consumer the scapegoat for illegal malpractice..... now where have I heard that before?

All of this contradictory information needs legal clarification to understand what the consumer should insist upon when hiring a car, to ensure they are protected from any illegal malpractice of this nature.

Solutions on a postcard, please!

Ads

Without a valid ITV your insurance company is probably within its rights to claim back any payout it is forced to make from that policyholder.

Did you see:- 

............   not having an ITV does not.invalidate your insurance. 

Confirmed with three brokers in SApain.

All of this contradictory information needs legal clarification to understand what the consumer should insist upon when hiring a car, to ensure they are protected from any illegal malpractice of this nature.

The latest:

We had a longer response via Facebook, saying that we weren't to worry (that's their mantra), and that they as the company would receive legal notification of the fine in four to six weeks' time and they would pay it then. Everyone knows it's not our responsibility.

We then received an email saying of course they wouldn't wait until the fine had increased to 200 euros (two weeks from now) - they'd have to be stupid to do that. And we should not worry. They know it's their legal responsibility.

Our response: 'Pay it today and please send us the receipt of payment.'

And now, just this minute a new message: 'We will receive from DGT by an electronic way. Then we have 20 days to pay but cannot do before.'

Can it be possible that the authorities would refuse to accept payment of a fine too soon (in Spain, anything is possible)?

Ads,    All of this contradictory information needs legal clarification to understand what the consumer should insist upon when hiring a car, to ensure they are protected from any illegal malpractice of this nature.

Its simple. 

It needs to be legal. i.e. have insurance, ITV (if the age of the vehicle dictates) and be road worthy.

Eggcup , did they not mean that they can't pay until the electronic notification comes through to them, at which point they have 20 days to respond?

Much appears to depend on when the electronic notification comes through (maybe they have to have a specific administrative reference point to relate back to), but presumably you can still insist that they make immediate payment at that point in time rather than compromise you by delaying for 20 days....

I don't know if this helps or not.

Thanks ads. That was helpful and I've used it in my latest response to them. This is what I wrote:

When will you receive the electronic notification? The fine must be paid before 14th October or it increases to 200 euros. We don't want you to wait 20 days. We want you to pay it immediately when you receive it.

God knows what the next stage will be.

If you don't hear back from them eggcup then

I'm just wondering if the car hire company are stringing you along to believe that they will receive an electronic notification, when in reality this will not occur, and you will be left with the consequences of an additional fine? When you think of it, if the Police were to do this it means that they would be willing to revoke your own fine, and how do you know if this is part of their procedure under these circumstances? Do you have any means of contacting the Police at this stage to clarify the situation?

If not, perhaps you should immediately request the car hire company to put in writing their intention to refund you within a set number of days if you were willing to pay this fine by the 14th October.

It’s really awful that you are being subjected to this crazy situation, and I wonder how many others have just paid up in fear of the consequences even though the car hire company  are at fault?

Did you request clarification for the option for a route to a refund from the debit/credit card company or has this been discounted due to the small amount paid?

QUOTE from internet:-

Extra protection with Section 75

Under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, your credit card company is jointly liable if something goes wrong with a product or a service you've paid for by credit card. 

You can potentially claim for any breach of contract or misrepresentation by the company from which you’ve bought your goods.

This means your credit card company shares equal responsibility with the retailer or trader for the goods or service supplied, allowing you to put your claim to the credit card company.

You don't have to reach stalemate with the retailer or trader before you can contact your credit card provider - you can make a claim to both the retailer and credit card provider simultaneously.

Section 75 is particularly useful if the retailer or trader has gone bust, or you're getting no response to your letters or phone calls.

The qualifying spend criteria was unfortunately not met in Eggcup's case as it was under the limit of £100,

Qualifying spend: over £100 and not more than £30,000

There are some limitations to when a card company is liable along with the retailer or trader. The item or service you bought must have cost over £100 and not more than £30,000.

The issue in principal however still needs to be addressed, which is why should an innocent consumer be exposed to an illegal malpractice by a car hire company, who provided no ITV in the first place?

The question remains does the car hire industry in Spain have adequate regulatory controls and powers to evoke business licences, given the fact that lack of IVA to meet roadworthiness criteria places all drivers on the road at potential risk (especially when you read the statistical details identified in a previous posting). Plus there are insurance implications to consider given differing insurance companies appear to have conflicting rules associated with how they handle this situation.

If the numbers of vehicles without ITV's are to be believed then this issue cannot be resolved by credit card protection alone. The issue has far wider safety implications and this needs resolving without using the innocent consumer as scapegoat.....

In the interim it's essential that the message gets across for consumers to insist upon ALL relevant documentation to be made available from the car hire company (imagine the delays that this would incur when this is not common practice) and retained in the car to demonstrate legal roadworthiness and act as proof when the Police stop and search. Word alone, given the problems identified to date, has obviously not been sufficient to demonstrate good practice.

The message remains CAR HIRER BEWARE.....

With regard to the ITV you shoudn't need to carry any paperwork inside the car.

Its mandatory for any vehicle that has passed the test to display a window sticker with the renewal date.

Simple rule for renters, no sticker no hire.

http://www.itvvegabaja.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68&Itemid=91

Team GB   Its mandatory for any vehicle that has passed the test to display a window sticker with the renewal date.

But if I remember correctly, that sticker only has the date when the next test is required, nothing to show the details of the vehicle to which it applies ?

Hi TeamGB.

Yes, you're right that renters should check the ITV sticker. Frankly I never ever checked this in all the years I have hired cars because I didn't imagine they would be out-of-date; I thought the companies would be adhering to the law. Of course one also has to check the documentation is in the car (in our case it wasn't and we only realised this when the Guardia Civil officer asked for it), also safety jackets, triangles, spare wheel, check regarding all dents etc. and if there are ones which are not marked on the paperwork, one has to go back to the desk which may be some distance away and join the queue again and insist someone comes to amend the diagram, if there is one, on which dents and scratches are marked. One must also check the fuel level corresponds to that on the paperwork(I took a photo once with the time on the photo when we noticed, having left the airport, that it was not full, as the paperwork had declared - and when we returned the car I needed that photo because they pointed at the paperwork and said, 'Look - it was full') . I'm sure people can come up with other things that should be inspected. All in all this is likely to take at least an hour - and when you've arrived, knackered possibly, at an airport late at night (when you may not even be able to see marks on the car clearly), most people will just trust the car hire company and deal with any problems if and when they arise. This does not make it the consumer's fault. Often, trusting people are blamed instead of the people whose job it is to hire out the cars professionally and legally, adhering to their own rules and regulations.

And ads, you also make some very good points - I tend to be cynical like you that the company is trying to fob us off. If they haven't paid just before the 14th, we will be paying and then pestering and publicising and complaining about them until we get a refund. In a way, they're saying that if we pay that'll be our lookout, because they've 'promised' to pay... They think we're dull and can't see through their dreadful practices.

 Are you suggesting that hire companies would fraudulently use the stickers, well we have no hope.

However, If you look at my link again you wil find that there is also a code on the sticker that Identifies the ITV station and given that their computer prints this out at the time of the test it's a fair bet that the vehicle info is also on the sticker. You can always cross reference with the vehicle Tarjeta de Inspeccion Tecnica 

 eggcup

No, I agree, A car hire company should provide a vehicle that is 'fit for purpose' primarily that means it's fully road legal and roadworthy. 

I'm suprised that nobody has suggested that you ask for the companies complaints book, that normally brings quick results to disputes and shoddy service. Maybe you could mention it to them on Facebook.

If checking the paperwork on a rental vehicle,  be aware:- Unlike 'normally owned' vehicles which require first ITV when 4 years old, hire vehicles or driving school vehicles, including mopeds, motorcycles, three-wheeled vehicles and quads: first test at 2 years and thereafter every year until the age of 5, after which the test is six-monthly

I just checked an ITV sticker on a car.  It has the year of expiry printed on it and then the month is shown by a large perforation along the top edge where the months are show in Roman Numerals, I, 11. 111, 1V etc.   On one of the horizontal edges there is a 4 digit number shown by small perforations. (That maybe a reference to the ITV station, I don’t know) but there is no other form of marking to ID the vehicle to which it relates.-

This message was last edited by elaineG on 02/10/2013.

Yes, TeamGB, we have got the hoja de reclamaciones up our sleeve (I have mentioned it below), and we were waiting hoping for an amicable resolution before threatening to use it. As more time passes though without them resolving the matter - i.e. paying up and giving us the proof they have - I am getting more inclined to mention it. And it is an interesting idea to mention it on Facebook - we may well do that. In any case, whatever happens we are feeling more and more sour towards them and when my husband is over again in November he will pop into the office and ask for the hoja. It's a shame as we've used them for years, and it's so damn tricky to find a decent company with a decent fuel policy, which is economical and doesn't try to catch you out, left, right and centre.

Victory!

Following yet another vague assurance today that we had nothing to worry about and that the company would receive the fine in about 30 days' time etc., I was like a dog with a bone and said I remained very unhappy about it, was not willing to wait until it increased to 200 euros on the 14th of October and I said I had told others (yourselves) about it and that the others also found it completely unacceptable. In my last few emails I just kept repeating 'pay it and send me the proof,' like a broken record. I am now happy to report that they have paid it and sent us a receipt (I haven't been able to read it yet - I'm not good opening documents - but will get him indoors to check it). Pester power can work.

I would like to thank everyone for their input on this - especially ads. You (ads) have been all that is best about this forum. You understood the problem and the outrageous way the company was trying to fob us off and you came up with great suggestions, and showed empathy, as did some others and I thank them too.

I think this has been an issue with wider applicability and I hope others will benefit from the discussion that has taken place. We benefited from a previous thread where someone said they were fined for not having their headlights on in the daytime - my husband just puts them on all the time in Spain now as a preventative measure - and I hope we all will now take a few minutes to check our hire cars have valid ITVs and also that the documentation is in the car. Obviously, if we spot it before leaving the hire company's base, we can insist on a legal car instead. So thanks again. I hope this is the last of it.

I don't think many people would hire a car that old in the first place.

Since I've not said how old the car is I don't understand the last comment.

Not to be side-tracked, I would like to thank everyone once more for their input. I think it was a great example of how people can help each other here to work through problems - a problem shared is a problem halved. And there were also some very interesting wider points made.