Hi all.

Just thought I'd pick your brains. Last week, during a few days in Spain, we got stopped by the Guardia Civil and fined 100 euros because our hire car had no valid MOT (it had run out in June 2012). The police officer was quite nice actually, calling us 'Ustedes' and saying that it was nothing for us to worry about, but that the hire company bore the responsibility. Nevertheless, the fine is in my husband's name and if it isn't paid by 14th October it will increase to 200 euros. The manager in the hire company was less than helpful, didn't even want to take the fine notice off us - 'Don't worry,' he kept saying and he also lied about already knowing about the notice - when my husband asked him to show him how he knew, he said 'well, I think we got something about it'.

Before flying back to the UK I got him to agree that he would pay it that day, which was 26th September. I have now sent the company  several emails which they are not answering, and have a few ideas up my sleeve - hoja de reclamaciones, claiming on our car hire excess insurance policy, informing the Guardia Civil about the car hire company's attitude and so on - and I am also thinking that if it is not paid by, say, the 10th of October that we will pay it ourselves whilst also taking the other steps - as I have found many times in Spain that the only way to resolve a problem is to sort it out yourself and bear the cost.

Any ideas?

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Why was the fine issued in your husband's name if the police officer admitted that it was the hire company that bore the responsibility? Why was the fine not issued in the hire company name for you to pass on to them, or for them to forward to the relevant company?

It seems a crazy system for the police to issue the fine against an innocent person, in full knowlege of who bore the responsibility.

Could you have insisted that the police make the fine out to the hire company and not to yourselves?

How does the law stand on this I wonder..... is it the responsibility of the person hiring the car to examine all legal documents associated with the hire car (MOT etc) before taking out an agreement with them? Surely not!!

Perhaps it's worth checking out the legal position, before you pay a fine that you are not legally responsible for, eggcup.

Have you tried putting your statement in writing to the police in the interim (saving a copy), so that you have this placed on official record with them?

Just a few thoughts..... 

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I would be inclined to pay the fine & inform the car hire company that if they don't reimburse you within 14 days you will write to the local papers. The papers around here seem only too pleased to "name and shame" a company especially if you were to include a copy of the fine. Hopefully a letter in the local press would loose him more than 100 euros worth of business. I doubt that any fine could be recovered from your car excess insurance

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Yet another consumer protection issue?

So long as a system that uses the innocent consumer as a scapegoat is allowed to continue in this way, we'll never get reform!

Logic suggests that consumers will have to bring these matters (re both Police methods/system and irresponsible hire company) to the attention of not only the press, but also the Police authorities.....

A simple solution would be for a directive to go out to the Police to issue the fine to the hire company (so long as your documentation showed you had an agreement with them). It's not exactly rocket science, and would spare the Police authorities (and the Spanish system) a trouncing in the press, whilst still making the hire company accountable!

Oh dear here we go again on the consumer merrygoround!!!!

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Thanks both. At the moment, I am keeping up the pressure. I emailed them and also rang them today and my husband asked them a question regarding sending us the proof of the 100 euros being paid, on their public Facebook page. It's a hint that we can make it very public if we need to. I am aiming to ring them every day (I've got a cheap international 'phone card which costs peanuts) and email them etc. etc. and will only pay if it gets nearer the date when it goes up to 200 euros. I'm pretty peed off though, having recommended them on this Forum and also to holiday-makers as well as having used them up to ten times each year. I like the idea of writing to the press - maybe Sur in English - that has a widespread circulation. If they do pay up and send us the proof, I am then going to ask them for a free hire the next time for having put us through all this grief. Will let you know how it progresses; in the meantime, any other opinions or ideas gratefully received.

And ads, you're right about the issue of why the police officer said it had 'nada que ver' with us, but then put it in my husband's name... as if you can ignore it then.

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If you do write to the press then make sure that you relate the situation re the Police, as this is not acceptable for the Police to compromise you in this way. It's as much a critcism of the Police system as it is the car hire company, Perhaps if you state a solution to the press (i.e. to get the Police to issue the fine direct to the car hire company) then it demonstrates that you're not just having a dig at them but are seeking positive reform!!

I hate seeing innocent consumers compromised in this way in Spain and so long as the Brits succumb to this abuse by paying up, when it is not their responsibility, they will never achieve reform of the system. The press need to be informed eggcup, no matter what you decide to do!

Good luck.

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As far as I am aware it is the driver's responsibility to ensure that the car they are driving is roadworthy.. People who drive hire cars do not treat them as they would their own. I would not be too happy driving a four year old hire car which has probably had way in excess of 100 different drivers. Most of the well known companies renew their fleet much more frequently. But at the end of the day you get what you pay for!

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Interesting point.........picked this up on Thrifty's website under "our responsibilities"........

"We have maintained the vehicle to at least the manufacturer’s recommended standard. The vehicle is roadworthy and suitable for you to use at the start of the rental period. " so perhaps the question to ask is what did it state under the terms and conditions for the car hire company in question from the outset?

Following that logic through then maybe another question to ask is if a car hire company doesn't meet roadworthiness standards and haven't included this statement in their terms and conditions should they be allowed to register as a business?

This message was last edited by ads on 30/09/2013.

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I think Scubamike has hit the nail on the head. A ticket normally has to be issued to an individual and as the hirer you assume responsibility for the vehicle. Unfortunately few of us, if any, would check a vehicle's documentation even if we could and I doubt whether the request to see the documentation would be well received. Even if you asked and were shown the documents would you actually know what was needed to ensure the vehicle was legal ? I certainly wouldn't so it seems the only way to minimise the risk is to chose your hire car company carefully and probably stay with the multi-national companies who change their fleet regularly.

In this case there would seem to be a breach of contract however as the service was not fit for purpose. If you have used a UK credit card to make the booking and it's over £100 then I would suggest you contact the credit card company as soon as possible. You should ask them to get involved as, providing the conditions above are met, they have joint liability with the hire car company for the transaction. This usually results in them taking the money from the company under the master agreement between them and the other party where an issue has arisen. In this case you had every right to expect that the vehicle could legally be hired to you and the absence of a valid ITV means the car should not have been driven on the road which frustrated your reasonable expectations under the contract after your consideration (payment) was made. Sorry several legal words in that last sentence but the net result is, hopefully, if you agree in writing with your card issuer to pay the fine you should see the money refunded on your next credit card statement and you won't need to deal with the company again regarding this.

Good luck !

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Great practical advice there Adrian!

So everyone should use a c/c for transactions over £100 and use one of the large multi-nationals whenever possible.

It's hard on those small companies that are sticking to the rules however..... but perhaps it's up to them to ensure that their track record speaks for themselves. So we're back to the need to bring press/forum attention to those who fail in this regard, eggcup.

 With this in mind.......who were the car hire company in question?

 

This message was last edited by ads on 30/09/2013.

This message was last edited by ads on 30/09/2013.

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Hi all.

I don't want to name them yet as I am still trying to get them to play ball.

It was a cheap hire for 5 days - 63.21 euros for the car, and 49.64 euros for a half tank of diesel. The total was 112.85 euros, so almost definitely coming in under £100! Although people may say we should go with the likes of Avis or Hertz, they cost a lot more and we have also had problems with some of the international firms when we hired from Madrid - charging a lot in the first place and then trying to make out we'd scratched the car, pointing to a miniscule mark that may or may not have been there when we picked up the car in the night-time... that was a scam, as it happened several times when we hired out of Madrid. We've used the company we're currently having the problem with, at Malaga, many many times and obviously have had much more economical hires because of that - they don't do the usual fuel scams for instance (well, at least you only pay for half a tank, even if it is more expensive than it should be and they don't ask any questions about dents etc. - they say it's all included in their insurance).

Adrian, I didn't quite understand: do you mean I should talk to my visa provider and agree to pay the 100 euros fine (again, less than £100), with the idea that I can then claim it back? It looks like we come under the £100 limit for this law... unless we waited until it was 200 euros, which seems a bit risky.

I'm hoping this will all be academic of course, and will keep the pressure up on the company. We don't want to fall out with them, because they've been very good up till now - although the test of any business (and individual) is how they behave when there's a problem and/or they've screwed up.

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Scubamike is correct, it is always the drivers responsibility to check that the car is roadworthy. The fact that it is a hire car or your friends car is irrelevant. So as far as the police is concerned that won't solve anything, they already fined you. The fact that the hire company didn't fulfil its obligations is a just a breach of contract. So by law you should pay the fine and claim it back under breach of contract with interest and damages, if the hire car company doesn't pay it. Which they should because they will lose in court, but effectively it would mean taking them to court if they ignore it. Which would be a crazy decision, so I imagine they will pay it, but certainly insisit on proof of payment if they pay it on your behalf.  Adrian's idea is quite a good one if your credit card will do that on the basis that there has been a breach in the sales agreement. However ther is one thing that I can't get my head around, is that the police said it had nothing to do with you and then fined your husband...it doesn't make much sense as you can't fine a company full stop, only the driver and all police know that...is it not possible that you misunderstood him or he misunderstood you, and what he really said is that the fact that was a hire car had nothing to do with it....please forgive me if my judgement is offending (no intention meant), I have no idea how good your Spanish is, but it would be a very easy mistake to make.... when you said "nada que ver" with you, it doesn't really make any sense in reference to the driver, if you know what I mean.    ... it's like a policemen giving you permission to park in a free parking spot and then giving you a parking ticket...ont he other hand it would make perfect sense if the comment was in reference to the hire company or the hire car ....

 

This message was last edited by mac75 on 01/10/2013.

This message was last edited by mac75 on 01/10/2013.

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Eggcup,

The Consumer Credit Act will not apply as neither of these transactions meet the criteria and aggregation is not permitted. Even If the CCA did apply you should not wait for the fine to rise either as the law is clear that you must do everything reasonably within your power to minimise your losses even if those losses arise as a result of the negligence or omission of others. In the UK the court would only award you what it deems to be reasonable so not paying the fine would be seen as contributory to the increase in the damages claim and unless there were special circumstances such as the hire car company failing to pay when you had written proof it stated it would then the claim for the additional amounts is unlikely to succeed.

In your case whilst keeping the pressure on the company I think you will need to consider the following points:

Was you rental direct or via a broker ? If it is via a UK broker then I am sure they act as agents without liability in their contract with you but contact the broker anyway and see if any assistance is forthcoming to pressure the hire company to resolve this. Mention to the broker that you will contact Trading Standards to seek advice on the legality of their contract if they don't offer any help. Any decent company would be worried by your story and the reputational harm it could do them. If the broker is liable as the result of a defective contract then you can sue them in the County Court using the simple fast track claim system for less than £5k.

You also don't say whether it was a debit or credit card. Even though the CCA doesn't apply it would still be worth contacting your credit card company or bank; if it is a Visa debit card there is a separate clawback arrangement in the Visa Debit Card process which your bank might invoke as a way of protecting their own brand. These claims are normally limited to 90 or 120 days from the transaction date depending on your bank so don't wait too long before you complain.

Finally if none of the above works can you trust the company to pay ? If not you should pay now as the fine is against the driver, not the vehicle or hire company and a failure to pay might lead to other recovery action by the authorities such as taking money from a Spanish bank account or embargoing your bank account in Spain, assuming you have one. This action would probably include an administration fee so €100 could look like a cheap option in 6 months time. You would then need to sue the company in the jurisdiction specified within your contract, probably Spain, to recover your reasonable losses if you can not get a refund from the hirer and that is outside my field of knowledge so over to a Spanish legal expert.

It's a shame when one bad small business tarnishes the many hard working ones who provide great service but I guess this really is a case of caveat emptor.

Good luck!

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Eggcup not another brush with the law by a friend or relative who is not to blame, you and yours are so unlucky !!!

 

Nevertheless, if you paid for the hire with a credit card I would have a go at claiming from them as in theory (at least) the contact is with them.  I have claimed a couple of times in unsatisfactory transactions and they have always paid, even when I had booked flights for several groups of people who had rented my apartment and the airline went bust.

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Adrian you sound very knowlegeable so I wonder, is there a requirement for a car hire company to have a trading licence and if so is there a regulatory body that controls these car hire companies with powers to evoke the licence if they do not adhere to certain standards (such as roadworthiness, which is a pretty basic standard.) Likewise is there a consumer regulatory body that have powers to swiftly ensure the consumer is protected under these circumstances without incurring major expense?

I'm just wondering is this another instance of the innocent consumer being made scapegoat for a system that might not be correctly regulated?

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Ads,  ....................  such as roadworthiness, which is a pretty basic standard.........................

This was not a case of an unroadworthy vehicle but one which did not have a current ITV cert.  Had there been a defect the driver would have been fined for that too.

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Well, we've had one little answer from them - the first proactive response - this morning, to the Facebook message - they're going to 'check it.' I've never rated Facebook, but if it helps this problem get solved, it will be no bad thing.

Also Mac, there was no misunderstanding with the police, as the conversation was quite straightfoward and comprehensible. We were told it was nothing to do with us, just the hire company and only noticed later my husband's name was on it; in any case you can't argue with them. In addition, there was actually no documentation in the car - it wasn't in the glove compartment or anywhere else, so we couldn't produce it, but the police officer didn't get on that as well, which I presume he could have. In face,  we were relieved the guy had a pleasant manner, which is not always the case, and were in a rush and expected somewhere else, so didn't have time to examine and argue about the little notice he'd given us.

Thinking about it now, since the MOT hadn't been valid since June 2012, it is likely that others have also been fined and God knows how they've dealt with it - probably paid it. And who knows how many cars in the rental company also don't have valid MOTs? And in how many other companies this is the case...

(And Elaine: I see you are up to your usual tricks, trying to turn a thread into an argument by making a nasty, pseudo-jokey comment about me, implying I somehow bring trouble upon myself. Stay out of my face.)

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And Elaine: I see you are up to your usual tricks, trying to turn a thread into an argument by making a nasty, pseudo-jokey comment about me, implying I somehow bring trouble upon myself. Stay out of my face.)

 

In your rush to be the 'offended party' maybe you missed my sugestion:-        "....  if you paid for the hire with a credit card  (as surely you must have)  I would have a go at claiming from them as in theory (at least) the contract is with them" and not the rental company.

PS It was not a psuedo joke, but a fact that you are forever posting comments about the police and the authorities who are unfair etc, 'speeding  fine to a friend's son who not driving the car'  ' not stopping when turning left 'etc.

 

PPS     ITV's not MOT's

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Picked up the following re ITV’s from the following website:

http://costablanca.angloinfo.com/information/transport/vehicle-ownership/vehicle-roadworthiness/

ITV Vehicle Roadworthiness in Spain

All vehicles on the roads in Spain must be roadworthy. It is up to the car or bike owner to ensure their vehicle has a valid ITV certificate. Vehicles must be tested at an authorised centre, just as for an MOT test in the UK...

 

but the certificate can serve as proof that the vehicle is roadworthy. A vehicle without a valid ITV is illegal; may not be safe to use on the road, and may invalidate insurance cover.

 The illegality issue needs proper clarification as consumers need to know their rights and obligations when hiring a car in Spain.....especially if these instances are growing in number (are they?)

Should for instance the consumer insist that the car hire company provide a standard pack of documents demonstrating it is "legal", which should be kept in the car at all times?

What started off as a relatively small issue now appears to have far wider implications.

Perhaps a good Spanish legal beaver could write a blog on this...... Maria?????

 

 

This message was last edited by ads on 01/10/2013.

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Ads, 

          what you posted is all very well but it is only a poster’s view from another forum.  Not necessarily an authority.

Yes all vehicles must be roadworthy and all vehicles of a certain age, varying with cars, motorcycles and public service vehicle   (including rental cars)  must have ITV’s but having an ITV only mean the vehicle was roadworthy at the moment of the inspection, and not having one does not mean it is not roadworthy.  

 

Being not roadworthy can (and usually will) invalidate the insurance,  not having an ITV does not.

A broker told me (he should know) that in the case of a write-off, if there is an ITV they will pay out market value, without one, trade value. 

Incidentally, being over the alcohol limit, in Spain,  also renders insurance cover invalid.

 

 

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