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Arenal Duquesa Phases 1,2,3,4,5,6 forum threads
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10 Oct 2007 7:58 PM by bobludgate Star rating in Sabinllas and Norwic.... 76 forum posts Send private message

In Spain and no football !! its a religion

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10 Oct 2007 11:25 PM by jmtwsm Star rating in Sabinillas CDS. 191 forum posts Send private message

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Let's all support Manilva and double their gates.  They will wonder what has hit them !!!

Jon  (former Wimbledon resident and supporter , now following Real Sociedad for the past 15 seasons)

PS.  I certainly know how to pick clubs. 




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11 Oct 2007 9:11 AM by bobludgate Star rating in Sabinllas and Norwic.... 76 forum posts Send private message

You worry, I have to watch Norwich!!  Manilva v Estopona local derby match should be interesting

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11 Oct 2007 11:55 AM by Paulio Star rating in Walton on the Hill S.... 13 forum posts Send private message

Well guys I am certainly up for a coach trip for the away leg if we can organise it, can anyone tell me the Manilva colours I need to buy a scarf.

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11 Oct 2007 12:21 PM by Pdrich1 Star rating. 261 forum posts Send private message

Whats all this got to do with the development.

 

Start another thread if you are that sad.




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13 Oct 2007 10:52 AM by CanCan Star rating in Pego, Spain. 32 forum posts Send private message

Have been away for a few weeks, finally moving into our new house and so was off line for a while.  Good to read all the updates on what is happening.  I note that  wflem007 was suggesting that 500 euros per annum would be an agreeable figure for community fees.  It will be interesting to see what Priensur initially set them at and who they appoint to run the development before the AGMs are organised ...as... for our apartment at Casares del Sol we are paying 308 euros per quarter!  That was following an initial set up fee (on completion) of around 500 euros!!  We are currently trying to vote in a new committee of owners and trying to get rid of  a company called Ammex who have been running it, which I think has now happened.  We should try and be an organised as possible as it appears (heresay only) that on CDS the developer gave the contract to Ammex as they were related to the CEO .... jobs for the boys eh?  I should add that all the accounts were fully published and available on line, so we could see where the money was going.  There was some ridiculous bill for sweeping the stairwells for all the blocks when less than a quarter of owners had completed.!! It seems as though they can charge what they like and insist on direct debits from your bank account. They doesn't appear to be a lot you can do except vote them out asap.  Now I'm not suggesting that it will be the same at Duquesa, but 'fore-warned is fore-armed' (as my mother so often says!!)

Regards to all


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13 Oct 2007 11:39 AM by wflem007 Star rating in Bangor, Northern Ire.... 285 forum posts Send private message

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CanCan

As posted in another thread, I've been doodling on a prospective Community Budget, (which I will post in this thread later on) and despite much scouting on the web, information relating to budgets is very very scant so I've had to guess a few things.

Still, it will make for a lively debate, well, for those that are lively.

Thanks for the info re your Fees - that was helpful.

I set off with a target figure of €500 pa but that's assuming everyone pays. When you factor in non-payers and other things (which you must) the figure has now risen to €600 pa.

To be honest, if we come in at that I will be very pleased. Our own solicitor advised a provision of €1000 pa but I want it lower than that.



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13 Oct 2007 1:57 PM by CanCan Star rating in Pego, Spain. 32 forum posts Send private message

Will,
If it's of any interest to you, I've downloaded the accounts from Ammex for my Casares del Sol apartment and would gladly send you a copy if you PM me, (probably not appropriate to post them on here!) so that you can doodle away to your heart's content!  They've also listed our next year's prospective fees which equate at 1540 euros for the year (approx 385 per quarter).
Regards


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13 Oct 2007 2:27 PM by wflem007 Star rating in Bangor, Northern Ire.... 285 forum posts Send private message

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PRE-LUDE TO COMMUNITY BUDGET : COMMENTS PLEASE !!

This is going to be a very long post, so if ya need a cup of coffee, grab it now.

I had posted a few days ago asking what people would like to see in the Development but there wasn't much response so I've been autocratic and went ahead anyway based on what I want to see.

I should add these are not necessarily the views of The Management .

This is just meant to be an initial feeler - please by all means add your tuppence worth if you agree or disagree, especially if you have solid facts and figures to contribute as some of mine are pure guesstimates.

What I will do is then is update the figures and we will keep it as a running current balance.

Sorry for this preamble but I think we need some sort of end objective, the vision thing. 

We have all bought into the Development for different reasons but the common denominator is that we all want our apartments to increase in value and to be easily sold or rented, and to achieve this certain things must happen, and more important, continue to happen 24/7.

I'll give you a couple of extremes. We first bought into Costa Del Sol when American Express were doing a joint marketing programme with Marriots Beach Resort at Elvira. This was about 12 years ago, and when we first went it seemed a good hoot - a 3 or 4 day jaunt away at a brilliant price. We didn't have any burning desire to actually buy.

Anyway, from the moment you enter Marriotts you know your into something special, even before you get out of the car.

Imposing entrance, security guards all over the place, spotless roads and terraces, fantastic staff, very very impressive.

You take all this in with no more than one glance but you just know it's "right" from that very moment, and everything else is just confirmation that you made the right decision. (Even if you haven't made the decision !)

I have a habit of getting up in the middle of the night and making coffee, and on our first night there I of course did the same, sitting out on our terrace with that heat you still get at that time.

I noticed, and this would have been about 3.00am, one of the pool boys working away tidying up the sun loungers around the pool, and as I watched he was straightening all the loungers.

As he was doing so, I then noticed he had a measuring device, which he then used to make sure each lounger was exactly the same distance from each other, and then exactly the same distance from the pool edge.

I thought, b****y h*ll, I want some of this. A picture paints a thousand words.

If they go to that trouble on an item like this, they'll do all right. And they did.

We bought what was called a Platinum Week at a price that made our eyes water at the time but the quality made up for it.

The staff were thrashed (trained) to an inch of their lives - not just bi-lingual but multi-lingual, smart, dedicated, it wouldn't have suprised me in the least if the pool boy had a university degree in quantum physics. Honest.

On another occasion I had forgot my mobile phone charger and went to Reception to ask for help.

Now, get this - the receptionist showed me into a back room where they had a special desk with all the phone chargers, from all the manufacturers, for all the phones worldwide. Hundreds of them. And they keep them up to date. No problem, no fuss, just part of a brilliant service. 24/7

We kept that until a couple of years ago and knew we had to sell it as we had bought into our Prienesur Duquesa Development. We really were sad at selling Marriotts.

We were worried about the re-sale as you hear lots of stories, but with Marriotts I shouldn't have worried. They bought it back after a few legalities and I think we had the money in 10 days. No problem, no fuss.

I think from memory our last Community Charge with them was €700pa, and yes, that was just for a week.

(If you multiply that by 52 weeks, now that's what I call a Community Charge)

Now, I'm not saying that we can get near Marriotts, but that's the standard we are competing with for future purchasers and renters.

The other extreme. When we were over in May, we had looked at seven possible beach developments for when we retire in 6/7 years time. They are not that far from Prienesur Duquesa.

We spent a couple of days doing this, all very nice etc.etc.

We were over again in Sept and decided to follow up on one we had missed, plus another for a second look.

This development is close to Duquesa, on paper the price was right (truthfully a wee bit on the low side), the size was more than enough, and you couldn't get a better view of the Med. That is, you are basically on the beach.

As you approach it, it looks spot on. Parked the car and took a walk round.

Then you realise why it's priced on the low side - the upkeep and maintenance was very very poor. No paint had seen this development probably since it was built 20 or 30 odd years ago, just a feeling of despair about it, yet at some time it would have been a fabulous site. Not any more.

We walked straight out again and I don't think The Mangement ever mentioned it again.

What I want to see is our Development looking fantastic all the time, 24/7.

Just like having your house for sale when it's all hands to the pump to make it look good for prospective buyers, we need that constantly for our Development 365 days of the year, because make no mistake there will be prospective buyers and renters visiting every single day.

That's not going to be cheap, but I would rather price up to a standard, rather than down to a cost.

If we spend extra, it will come back to us with quicker sales.

We have 464 apartments in Phase 1. That's too big in a way. Most Communities are less than a 100, so I think it would be a good idea to have 4 "pool" communities making up the whole, each one centred to their common pool.

So we take Blocks 3, 4, 11and 10, they all face onto a common pool. Likewise Blocks 2,9,16 and 1 all face to a common pool, and likewise for the remaing Blocks.

This then creates a much more manageable situation. I would go further and suggest that each seperate Pool Community has it's own distinctive sun lounger cushion colour, eg. blue, lemon, green, orange, or whatever.

That would give each Pool Community a slightly different character, plus a bit easier for new visitors/renters/buyers to at least get into the right area of the Development. It's big ya know, and I wouldn't fancy arriving in the middle of the night looking for Block X

It follows then that there should be one representitive for each Pool Community on the Management Committee. 

Anyway, 464 apartments, divided into four Commnities of 96 each.

70% will pay on the dot, 20% will be a bit late, and 10% will never pay a single cento until Daddy takes the T Bird away.

That's expensive, and I would like to see every single €  added to these accounts including all administration and legal costs. Interest at 2% per month plus monthly legal/administrative letters at €50 per pop will do nicely. It may take a few years through the Courts but think of that money as eventually ending up in the Reserve Savings Account at some stage.

Now, before I seperately post the actual Budget,  I'm going for a coffee now myself (don't forget you already had yours), so if anyone wants to add in things they want to see, now's the time.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 




This message was last edited by wflem007 on 10/13/2007.

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13 Oct 2007 6:44 PM by Pdrich1 Star rating. 261 forum posts Send private message

13 Oct 2007 7:48 PM by peps Star rating in manchester and duque.... 410 forum posts Send private message

ha ha ha thats what i thought.  

it's great you are great tackling this will as i wouldn't know where to start. i have things in mind too but what input are you wanting? about rules and stuff? won't they be pretty standard.  i agree we all want site to look great all the time but don't bankrupt me please. i'll measure the loungers outside of my appt if you want!  ha 

suzanne




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14 Oct 2007 6:56 AM by Pdrich1 Star rating. 261 forum posts Send private message

What about having half a paddel tennis court for each community.


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14 Oct 2007 9:02 AM by wflem007 Star rating in Bangor, Northern Ire.... 285 forum posts Send private message

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Sorry, went for that cup of coffee, which then drifted into my Saturday Night Happy Hour (s) and you can quess the rest.

Typing Budget now as you read this - it's, er, big (I mean lengthy Suzzanne, not the € )

 



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14 Oct 2007 11:40 AM by wflem007 Star rating in Bangor, Northern Ire.... 285 forum posts Send private message

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COMMUNITY BUDGET ????

INCOME

1. 325 units @ 690  =   224,250 

2. 93 units @  776  =       72,168 

3. 46 units @ 0 =                    0 

Total                                296,418

Bank Interest                       2000                                                                                        €298,418                              

                                                                                                                                        

OPERATING EXPENSES

4. Management Co. Fees @ 5%                                         20,010

5. Communications, secretarial, office expenses             4,000

6. Contingency Fund @10%                                                 29,842

7. Bank Charges                                                                       1,000 

8. Insurance                                                                             10,000 

9. Audit Fees                                                                             5,000

10. Legals                                                                                   5,000                  74,852

11. Staff Wages                                                                        163,000                  

12. Staff Uniforms                                                                        1,000

13. Staff Training & Incidentals                                                  5,000              169,000

Maintainence & Service Agreements

14. Pools                                                                                     4,000    

15. Lift Maintainence                                                                  9,600

16. Security Entrance Gates & Garage Doors                      1,000

17. Sat TV System                                                                       1,000

18. Fire Extinguishers                                                                1,000

19. Irrigation  Systems                                                               1,000                    17,600

General Services

20. Electrical                                                                              2,000

21. Roads Paths & Courts                                                      2,000                        4,000

 Utilities

 22. Water (for pools, gardens)                                              5,000

23. Electricity (general lighting, lifts, pools)                         5,000                     10,000

Equipment

24. General Tools & Equipment, hire                                   2,000

25. Paints & Finishes                                                              2,000

26. Signage                                                                               1,000

27. Extra plants & trees                                                           4,000

28. Sun Loungers & Cushions                                              1,000                  10,000

Reserve Funds

29. General Repair Reserve                                                2,000

30. Capital Improvements Reserve                                  10,000                   12,000                  297,452

 Net Balance                                                                                                                                       966.00

 

We shouldn't touch the Contingency Fund.

However, we need to look at the total expenses first, to see what changes can be made there, before tinkering with the Community Charge.

Have I over-estimated on things ? Or not included things I should have ?

Below is Notes relating to the Budget.

Items 1 to 4

Taking €690 pa as a starting figure.

The prevailing model now seems to favour adding on a 25% loading, and then taking it off in the form of a discount for those who pay within 14 days.

Therefore €690*125% = €862.5pa

If paid within 14 days 20% discount = €172.50, netting it back down to €690.

If paid within between 15 - 28 days, 10% discount = €86.25, netting it down to €776

After 29 days, no discount at all, making it €862.5 pa. If it still isn't paid after this then you are entitled to add a 2% monthly interest charge plus all costs, say €50 per chasing/begging letter. 

From a previous post, 70% will pay immediately, 20% will be a wee bit tardy, and 10% you can forget about for the current year's spending.

3. Now we havn't forgotten about the Delinquents - their money owed ( €39,675 plus costs) will come in dribs & drabs at some stage, usually a few years down the line so we can't actually spend it at the moment. We should regard this as a some sort of long term Savings Fund, maybe for the long term Capital Improvements Reserve.

4. Based on 5% of total billed Charge of €400,200

10. Probably on a self employed basis in the early years.

I'm assuming a €20,000 figure pa regardless of occupation or duties. I do not know if this is high, low or whatever.

Security (2 plus a spare), one for day shift, one for night shift, and a spare for when the regulars are on holidays.

Gardeners (2) each one looking after 2 Pool Communities

Cleaners (2) probably on the low side, looking after landings and stairwells (portals), pool huts etc..

Painters & Decorators (2) again probably on the low side - it's a huge development, it's on the coast, sea air wrecks havoc on paint.

Everything else can be sub contracted out on a need to do basis.



This message was last edited by wflem007 on 10/16/2007.

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14 Oct 2007 12:27 PM by alanwspencer Star rating in Hertfordshire/Duques.... 340 forum posts Send private message

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Sorry Will couldn't read your post in detail as it would have taken me past my retirement age and I have to sort my apartment before that!
My solicitor has informed me the management costs should be similar to Arenal Golf and they are appx. €720 a year. If they are any more than that I certainly wouldn't proceed on principle. I know the first two things people ask when considering purchasing on a development are what are the council charges and what or the community fees. If either are extortionate they will not proceed and this will effect the value of the property.
There said my bit and I'm taking a vow of silence for a couple of days.
Alan

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14 Oct 2007 10:36 PM by Margo Star rating in London/Duquesa. 298 forum posts Send private message

I love this forum! Thank you Will for all your hard work there. Appreciate it. This is all really useful, because you are dead right, we have to aim for a high standard of maintainance (cheap is dear and that's a fact) but it's also true what Alan says, in that if the service charge is too high, you can wave goodbye to a high proportion of buyers. It's a' balancing act, because ideally, we'd want to attract the kind of buyer who has a real interest in keeping the development wonderful, but at the same time, we don't want to be paying out unnecessary sums of dosh. So it does have to be realistic. I like the idea of shopping around a bit and finding out what other developments are paying. Can other communities help here, please? I did read somewhere on this website that the community can actually impound the property of non-paying community members. Heavy. Also, in my case, I think I'd be setting up standing orders. Seems to be the best way for someone who'd forget her head if it wasn't attached. I like the idea of offering good discounts to members who pay up on time. One more thing Will. Coffee. Keeps you awake. Now, a nice cup of Horlicks.............. hate it myself, but you might get a better night's kip.

This message was last edited by Margo on 10/14/2007.


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15 Oct 2007 7:50 AM by Pdrich1 Star rating. 261 forum posts Send private message

Some very strange numbers!

What about garden maintenance.  How many staff.  We will need 12 security guards to cover 21 shifts per week.  New plants shouldn't be needed if perennials are planted now.  Signage.  Reserve and contingency fund.

There should be no delinquency because they will be pursued through the courts at their own expense.




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15 Oct 2007 8:20 AM by wflem007 Star rating in Bangor, Northern Ire.... 285 forum posts Send private message

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Thanks Margo for your kind words, and for taking the time.

It is a balancing act, but it's also a €120 million project, and we have to protect that by high standards, which then dictates what the Community Charge will be.

As The Management will confirm, I'm the tightest bloke on the planet so I don't take this lightly.

The fact remains though, that if you have a new Mercedes, you pay Mercedes servicing costs, and that's the brutal truth of it.

And our Urbanisation is a new Mercedes.

Information on budgets, and actual accounts, are very limited so I appreciated information sent to me via Private Message

and in the interests of annominity I'll protect the guilty.

Some of my costings were wildly pessimistic, some wildly optimistic, and I have updated and edited the Budget post taking this new info on board.

For instance, did you realise we had 96 lifts ? No, nor did I at the start.

(We are now at €665pa and I will keep it updated as far as possible).

Bad Debtors are the lepers of any Community. I'm convinced they have no intention of ever paying a cento. I would erect security grills on their front doors. Charge them €200 for the trouble. I would have a skull and crossbones plaque erected at the pool end front of their apartment, visible to everyone. Done in all the best taste, mind you. Pay their dues, and it's taken down. Oh, and another €200 for that one.

Anyway, as part of the License proceedure, our name has already been decided on by Town Hall, our Community Charge will already  have been pencilled in, and the Community Rules set.

Anyone want to run a Book ? 




This message was last edited by wflem007 on 10/15/2007.

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15 Oct 2007 8:43 AM by wflem007 Star rating in Bangor, Northern Ire.... 285 forum posts Send private message

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PD, thanks for taking the time.

Budgeted for 2 full time Gardeners, 2 full time Security, 2 full time Painters, 2 full time Cleaners.

You can have as many staff as you want. Each one costs each apartment roughly €50 pa. so just dial in the number.

Another 10 staff - thats an extra €500 each apartment. If the Community agrees, that's that.

One of the big selling points for any development is "lush tropical gardens".  Our gardens, while nice, are not lush or tropical as yet, and won't be unless we budget for it. You don't see where money goes in plants. It's expensive.

Signage covers all the statutory notices you have to display around the Urbanisation, eg, pool and community rules framed and displayed in each lift, displayed at the pool etc. Did I mention we have 96 lifts ?

Reserve Funds are for stuff that we eventually will have to replace or renew, probably a few years down the line.

It would be nice to have no Pirates but we will. In the meantime, until we get their money in, we have to spend our money.

 

 



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15 Oct 2007 10:01 AM by melwell Star rating. 36 forum posts Send private message

Dear Community of Owners,

I've not until now contributed to this discussion but the emerging rhetoric around service charges is very disturbing.  It's clear from most of the notes so far that experience is somewhat lacking with many, as the language around the scale of charges, taking people to court, boarding up properties etc etc is verging on the insane.  All this before anyone has set foot on the development.  Our experience of a similar situation, albeit in the UK, of a holiday home complex in which this situation deteriorated into Court action resulted in that no one came out as winners.  It's distructive and long term grief for all and must be avoided at all cost.  And for those who are interested in what was the catalyst for the dive into anarchy, it was the scale of charges and how they were administered.

I'm sure many will know of the George Orwell book 'Animal Farm'.  The Hogs take over and threats begin, corruption becomes the norm, all the balanced people look the other way, ideology drives the agenda and common sense dives out of the window.  Pet schemes are put forward as 'good ideas for the future', contingency funds are set up to pay for questionable long term projects, committee meetings are held and the costs borne by the community, bar bills, travel expenses, stationary/administration costs, all unreceipted are presented as part of the community charge.  Questions are raised about the costs, why this, why that ?  No satisfactory explanation is provided just a high level 'just pay up'.  People start to distrust and refuse to pay, arguments commence and threats start. Court action results.  Disaster !!!!!!!!!!   This is what happened in the UK.  Any of this sound familiar ???

I strongly urge that everyone approaches this subject with great caution.  Keep the costs down to the bare minimum, a level that people will judge as credible and fair and people will pay.  Resist the temptation for 'great ideas' to add to what's there, maintain to a similar standard no more.  Avoid any situation that creates a potential 'conflict of interest' where the people of the community feel disenfranchised.  Don't jump to or threaten with legal action because that will not resolve any situation, it will make it a thousand times worse.  For heavens sake don't let the Hogs take over, we'll all regret it !!!!!

 

 




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