British driving licence and Residence in Spain

 Poppyseed, your repeating of my post with,

"One size doesn't fit all and never will." 

added to it seems to suggest to me a person who is quite negative, and shows your reluctance to agree with your fellow man (or woman). Getting along with common policies and enforcing them doesnt mean one size fits all, as to decide and agree on a policy, before it becomes enforcable or even law, it has to be agreed upon by the member states and defined very carefully into legislation before it becomes a regulation, so i really dont see that one size fits all, as all have agreed on that size, sometimes with getout exclusions for some member states that feel they need them.

I do feel that the EU is full of knockers , not just in the UK , but other member states, and this is why it has such problems, rather than becoming a more workable union. The EU just needs consideration by participants, and maybe it would work more smoothly.

robertt8696, I'm afraid I have little time for amateur psychology (or indeed professional) and there is no basis for your 'analysis'. Indeed to buy a house in Spain one has to be an eternal optimist.

The fact that  I along with many others find the EU an unmanageable, undemocratic and corrupt organization that I would prefer not have anyting to do with does not make me or others who feel this way negative or reluctant to agree with others, we just have a different opinion to the pro EU lobby and I am more than happy to agree with and feel positive with people who share my views, and thank goodness there are some people trying (even though it often seems in vain) to try and keep some sort of balance in the monolithic beaurocratic nightmare the EU has become, it's a bit like Topsy but more sinister. Perhaps you consider anyone who has different opinions to you as negative and reluctant to agree with you, and maybe they have good reason to feel this way.

My analysis would be the pro EU propaganda brain washing machine is alive and well in a few places although everyone I discuss this with is as fed up as I am of it all, they are people from all walks of life and different backgrounds but the one thing they do have in common is they are intelligent people capable of independant thought.

I apologise in advance to anyone who wants to scream that this is off thread, you are quite right but then threads are like conversations that often stray.

 Poppyseed i note your current post with a mixture of amazement and disdain at your perception of me, (which coincidentally is totally wrong) and your blanket opinion of the EU. Now who is applying "one size fits all", if its not yourself?

You state people who,

"  just have a different opinion to the pro EU lobby and I am more than happy to agree with and feel positive with people who share my views"

But you have not asked my views, you have applied a "one size fits all" (your words) view to my comments without thinking in depth what their implication is, and that is i am actually more Euro Sceptic than pro EU, but as you choose to blindly apply your blanket "onesize fits all" attitude to my words , you have misinterpreted what i said, and the spirit in which it is intended.

if you read my last paragraph you would see that you are exactly the sort of person who i described. Having such a negative attitude and effectively "washing your hands" of the EU only serves to make it stronger. I suspect you are a person who doesnt vote for politicians either maybe because you have an opinion they are all a waste of time, but if you dont vote , how do you change things? You really should study the EU in its forms and determine a proper  measured opinion instead of just attempting to spread smears hoping some will stick.

Anyway back to me, i dont have a pro EU attitude, i think all member states should carefully consider anything that comes from Brussels, and vote on it accordingly, as their countries population would desire, and if that means directives are thrown out, so be it. This is what is called DEMOCRACY and comes in many forms, even among EU member states, and i also DO NOT think all the EU does or offers is good or right, as with any political system , including the UK. I also feel , as stated earlier that we should not give away our soveriegnty, as other member states should not either, we should all be aware, and proud, of who we are and where we come from, but that does not make me pro EU, and doesnt stop us from getting on with each other.

You have some interesting thoughts, maybe a little extreme, but hey we are all different, "one size fits all" is not the case, or will it ever be. The problem is, intelligent people who should know better by their sheer intelligenge prefer to just knock the situation instead of work for change, and change for the better, and if they dont agree with your extreme views you then apply your "one size fits all" attitude to them because you dont agree, or be prepared to discuss, an alternative view.

Maybe i should leave you with my last posts parting sentiment, and you can read and digest its implication properly this time?

"I do feel that the EU is full of knockers , not just in the UK , but other member states, and this is why it has such problems, rather than becoming a more workable union. The EU just needs consideration by participants, and maybe it would work more smoothly."

Good luck with your short sighted opinion

Can we please get back to the subject in hand! This treat has veard sooooooo far of its subject. Im sure that all this European stuff has got something to do with driving licences here in Spain but so has the gravitaional pull of Jupiter.

Come on lads stop mucking about the question still is to change or no to change not independance or indviduality but what is simples as the mere cats say. Come on get a grip no wounder the world is in the state it is just change the bloody licence dont blow the doors off.   

 Your quote Solwayiceman,

"just change the bloody licence dont blow the doors off. "

Shouldnt it be,

"just change the licence, dont blow the bloody doors off"?

seems "one size fits all" doesnt work....................

Oh and P.S, i still maintain an earlier posting on this thread, if you PERMANENTLY move to another country why would you want to retain your licence unless you are hiding from officialdom in BOTH countries? Could anyone explain THAT possibility?

"aly is right, you are perfectly entitled to drive around as a resident with your UK licence.  I changed mine recently to a Spanish one only because the photocard part of it had expired."

Well, I was stopped by the local police in Teguise, Lanzarote last Sunday for going up a road they had closed off - fair enough, I was in the wrong and was happy to admit it, but there were extenuating circumstances, and he let me off in the end. BUT when he saw my UK licence (one of the old paper ones, valid til my 70th birthday), and noted that it didn't have whatever stamp you're supposed to have on it from tráfico - he fined me for that instead. I would much rather have paid the 80 euro fine for going up the wrong road than the 500 euros I've been fined for the licence issue!

Ok, so I only (only!) have to pay 250 if I pay within 20 days, but even so it seems an outrageously high amount for what at the end of the day cannot be considered a serious offence in any reasonable person's eyes. It's the same fine you'd get for driving 150kmh in an 80kmh zone, is what I've done on a par with that?

I never bothered to change my licence or get it stamped by tráfico for the simple reason that everyone I asked, including a Guardia Civil officer, said technically it could be a problem, but no one bothered enforcing it. As is very often the way here, so I've learnt to my cost, there is a morass of conflicting information, and even those whose job it is to know such things often don't.

If anyone has been fined for this 'offence' and has successfully fought it, I'd love to know!

 Beroo, there seems much confusion about driving licences on this forum, and most of the confusion is that most people seem to think the problem is Spanish rules, but it is usually EU licence terms and directives which all EU member states must abide by unless they have negotiated an exclusion to the directive and its implications.

You say,

"when he saw my UK licence (one of the old paper ones, valid till my 70th birthday), and noted that it didn't have whatever stamp you're supposed to have on it from tráfico - he fined me for that instead"

The reason you may have been fined is a paper card licence from 1991 onwards(coloured green) is a universal format licence which all EU member states recognise, an earlier UK licence is not a acceptable format within the EU states, as its not EU recognised.

The way to easily  tell which you have is the early one is predominantly pink in colour, and the post 1991 licence is predominantly green. The green one is fine, as is the photocard licence issued from 1997 onwards, which is also EU format.

If your licence is green, you would be advised to get it validated by trafico, but if its pink, get it changed at the earliest possible opportunity, either in Spain or the UK for a photocard licence of current issue.

Lastly, i do not think you have any defence for the offence, as you have produced a non EU recognised licence which means you are guilty, although it is a UK valid licence, this does not mean its valid EU wide. Unfortunately its a case of swallow hard and pay at the earliest opportunity...............Then update your licence.......

As i  have said before...... Happy Motoring.....

Hi robertt8696,

Thanks for your reply. You are correct in that it is one of the mostly pink licences, I guess what irks me is that if this licence was perfectly ok to use (for up to 2 years I think, or maybe 6 months, depending on who you listen to), then you'd assume it should still perform its purpose - namely to prove that I've passed a driving test in a European country - after this period. Otherwise, why should it be valid for use outside the UK in the first place? I've used this 'non EU recognised licence' to hire cars in several European countries.

Lastly, i do not think you have any defence for the offence, as you have produced a non EU recognised licence which means you are guilty, although it is a UK valid licence, this does not mean its valid EU wide. Unfortunately its a case of swallow hard and pay at the earliest opportunity...............Then update your licence.......

I suspect you're right, I'll just have to pay and change my licence. It does seem an unduly harsh penalty though, lumping me in with people who commit offences which could actually endanger other people's lives.

Beroo

 Your statement .

" I guess what irks me is that if this licence was perfectly ok to use (for up to 2 years I think, or maybe 6 months, depending on who you listen to)", In your case is untrue, as a predominantly pink licence (pre 1991) is ONLY valid for use within the UK, and holiday use etc. The 2 years, or 6 months clause is for people who become Resident in Spain, then the licence needs to be changed for a Spanish one anyway. When your UK only licence is used outside the UK it used to be legal in foreign countries, including the EU when backed up by an International Driving Permit, which is recognised in most countries worldwide.Since the EU adopted universal standard licences the International driving permit is no longer needed in the EU.

It is only post 1991 (green) paper licences which are universally recognised by EU countries because they are prepared in a universal format that is recognised EU wide without translation or other permit backing them up

Unfortunately if you are now permanently resident in Spain you should exchange it at trafico, or if you still have UK rights, i would get it renewed at the DVLA. At this point, may i advise you to make multiple photocopies of the licence, as if Trafico, OR DVLA "lose" your licence its handy to have some type of printed evidence to prove its previous existance.

As to your "unduly harsh penalty", i do have sympathy with you, but as with any legal matter the line has to be drawn somewhere. Look at it this way, it COULD be in another category, with an even greater fine..........

It may have been a costly excercise, but look at it this way, now you know, so it shouldnt happen again.

Best of luck!

PS, well done that you have kept a clean licence for as many years as you have and its never been handed in and updated to a later type licence! 

It sounds like I should really consider myself lucky for having got away with this for the 14 years I've been a resident in Spain!

I'll just pay and change my licence - lesson learnt.

I hope this sorry tale will prompt anyone else in my position to change their licence asap, at least that way some good may have come of it.

Cheers,

Beroo

 14 Years!!! you have been lucky, but in your defence, the Spanish are becoming much more aware of EU legislation and are nowadays enforcing it in the manner it should be enforced, and where previously the paperwork was just too much to bother with, or greasing of the palm worked, now they are becoming more efficient and official in their dealings, and things are beginning to change.

As you have been there 14 years, i would if it were me, just gracefully go to Trafico, and quietly hand it over and transfer your licence for a Spanish one, but note the car driving category will be issued under the new class limit that gives you entitlement to drive a vehicle to 3.5 tonnes only, (this is a transit van) and nothing larger. The same will happen with a UK exchange also, as a EU directive has now made this the limit for car licence entitlement. Many people think its a Spanish class, but its not its an EU class, being applied retrospectively as a licence is handed in for update, and not a restriction applied by the Spanish, as most ex-pats exchanging their licence seem to think. Under Spanish law, it sounds also that you are most likely old enough to have to take a general medical  to prove fitness to drive.............(the Spanish could also fine you for not updating your licence as its so old by your issue date, and not abiding by Spanish regulations , as you have been resident for so long. The initial limit on exchange/update as a resident is 2 years!)

Good Luck!

Yep, I count myself lucky to have escaped for so long... I certainly would have done it before if I'd known the severity of the penalty and just how much I was trusting to luck! I do however wish that the authorities would make this information easily available and in the appropriate language for the person concerned - for example by notifying you when you apply for residencia. That way they would ensure many more people comply with the current law... which presumably is their goal; unless of course they'd just rather have the cash...

I just found a useful post about the actual procedure for people who live in Lanzarote. My account is not yet approved, so I can't insert a proper link; however going to lanzaroteinformation[dot]com and searching for "how to renew your driving licence spain" should locate the article.

Thanks very much for your help.

Beroo

 Beroo, you are welcome for the help, but almost any EU countries licence department will give you very similar information, as the Directive is supposed to be enforced by all EU member states, with regional differences, such as opt out clauses, or other local terms. Then once checked, its a matter of going to the local driver and vehicle licensing office to update/exchange your licence. 

A typical licence directive is relating to resident status, and if you check the UK DVLA you will find residence in the UK is like Spain, defined as a day or so greater than 183 days in the country, thus making you resident for more than 6 months in any 12, and therefore considered resident in the UK, fulfilling resident status for the UK. This qualifying point is as good as identical to the Spanish version, and occupation of a EU country is ANY 183 days, not consecutive.

About the only exception to exchanging your licence is if you live in more than one EU member state, during a 12 month period, and unless one country is clearly occupied predominantly, you can retain your original licence( in our case UK). I will in the near future fall into this category as i intend to buy a property in Spain and split my time between Spain and the UK, so will retain my licence as i will have properties in both countries, and no clear period of residence in either country.

Good luck down at Trafico!

I have a new and unique problem connected to this.

Recently I received in my UK address (I still have one), my letter to update my photo of my driving license.  I hence decided it was as good a moment as any to do what i had been putting off and change to a Spanish driving license.  I speak to some Spanish friends, get all documents ready and even do my medical and off i go to Jefatura de Trafico en Cadiz.  They look at my paper, all goes smoothly and I even dont have to wait long, i cant believe my luck....  then suddenly "tenemos un problema", "como" i ask.  The nice lady then goes on to explain that I obtained my British license after i was a resident in Spain. explaining that this isnt allowed and they cant issue me a Spanish licence.  I insist and insist and one "responsable" after another and finally I have to except that it isnt possible.  Anyone ever been in this situation?  Here is summary of my personal situation in case it helps:

- I lived and worked between Spain and the UK during my first years of living in Spain.  To work in Spain of course I had to get my "residency".

- I didnt have a driving license and decided to do it in the UK as i didnt speak good Spanish at that point and didnt think I would stay long term in Spain.  So in summary i got my licence in the UK whilst a resident in both countries.

- Speed forward 10 years, i want to change to a Spanish license and I'm told the above with the only solution they can give me is to provide them with a residency NIE letter that is after my driving license date (impossible as far as I know) or sit the Spanish test which i clearly dont wish to do.

For now Im going to renew my photo in the UK and continue with my UK licence (valid to 2048) but has anyone ever been in this situation?

Appreciate any advice anyone can give as im at a bit of loss and anyway do want to change to the Spanish license if i can.

Cheers, Douglas

Ask the question of Solvit.

here;

http://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/eligibility_en.htm

You'll get a reply inside 10 days. Ask for te reply in spanish then you can print & take to office with you. Assuming the answer is in the affirmative .

Beroo.

Probably well to late now but i have one of those paper licences, mine is Green, and with Pink, valid until i am also 70, mine is with the small Euro circle of stars on it,  underneath that is printed European Communities Model, if yours was the same as mine it sounds like the copper didn't look to hard except to see €€€€€'s coming in...... like i say to late now.

 Doug, you say it yourself within your thread, and i quote, " So in summary i got my licence in the UK whilst a resident in both countries." The essence of this is due to your paperwork showing two adresses at that point, until you can prove to the Spanish authorities you have permanently moved totally to Spain the authorities will believe you still hold a principal place of residency in the UK, and that being the case under EU regulations, your principle residency is the place your licence must be registered. The only way i can see that you could swap for a Spanish licence is if you could provide documentary evidence that you are living more than 183 days in Spain at the point of application. It should not make any difference as to when you attained a NIE number as this can be obtained in the UK by a UK resident for the purposes of working in Spain without actually being a resident in Spain, from the Spanish consulate. As there is no true residency paper any more, the only thing they can demand is proof you are permanently residing in Spain for more than 183 days. Give them that and there should be no objection. I would also look up the licencing regulations in the EU, and print them out, in Spanish and armed with that also go and apply for a Spanish licence! Good luck!

There is no requirement to be a resident  when changing a driving licence, A passport will do.

If there was the UK could turn around & deny you renewal there.

 P.S.

" If he finally decides to apply for the Spanish driving license, he needs to go to Trafico and fill in an application form, pay taxes (27,40€; it went up this year, last year was 26€), and a photo. In case the UK driving license is going to expire in short, he will need also a medical certificate. Only in that case he will need a medical certificate."

from here.

http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/interestinginfo/9051/dgt-clarifies-uk--spanish-driving-licence-requirements.aspx

This message was last edited by guslopez on 17/04/2013.