British driving licence and Residence in Spain

Why don't they just harmonise the DL across the EU - It would be so much easier.

This article seems to suggest that this is underway

http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/latest-eu-news/newly-issued-driving-licences-in-credit-card-format-from-2013.html

Yes, that is correct. New changes are coming from 2013.

 well 66d35 it seems you are under an illusion when you say,

"One valid reason, for some, can be the loss of category entitlements. Important if you return to the UK and need to rent or drive vehicles in those categories."

If you send a licnce in to the DVLA currently, even for just renewal purposes, just as in Spain you may lose certain licence entitlement categories. This is because the DVLA is bringing UK licences into line by updating licence categories to comply with EU guideline entitlements, and therefore some driving categories have changed, and so the DVLA is doing the same as Spain and restricting your categories to those agreed by the EU. This means that previous licence entitlements and "grandads" rights previously on your licence WILL be removed to comply with new legislation.

A typical example is the 7.5 tonne "non-hgv" goods category which was previously part of the car driving category. Under "grandads" rights its on your licence, but now the licence category threshold for a car is 3.5 tonnes gross, so a UK driver can drive a bigger vehicle than currently recognised for the category, all well and good with "grandads rights", but is now obsolete, so send your licence to the DVLA for updating, replacement ,etc, and you will find they will be sending you a licence back with the new weight threshold on it. Hey presto! no "grandads" rights and only 3.5 tonne entitlement.

The trailer entitlements are the same for towing a trailer, and now to comply with the EU, are only for towing a trailer of total gross weight of 750 kilos, any bigger requires gaining entitlement to a bigger licence category, and a 750 kilo trailer is not much more than a unladen caravan, so dont start putting garden furniture, the barbie, the kids bikes, the dog kennel , etc in your caravan when you go away, as you will be overloaded!

Everyone here seems to think that the Spanish are stealing licence categories, but they are doing the same as the DVLA, all they are doing is bringing the licence into line with new EU categories at the point of renewal, the same rules that apply in the UK, so it doesnt matter if you send your licence to the DVLA for renewal/ replacement ,or to the Spanish Trafico, you WILL lose these licence categories that no longer exist under EU regulations.

That is the bottom line folks, dont blame the Spanish, blame the great EU we all joined many years ago.................. Its called HARMONISATION.

 Team GB i have just read your link for licence Harmonisation and it mostly conforms to my contribution just posted. the entitlement proposed in it is for "ten years administrative validity" this is already in force, as an english licence is valid for far longer than that, but must have the photocard part renewed every ten years for "administrative validity" (picture getting older!) even now, just most people dont realise it!

as to the following,

"For caravan owners, the European Commission had originally proposed that a B and E driving licence was required. During negotiations with the other institutions, Parliament succeeded in allowing category B licence holders to tow a trailer with a mass exceeding 750 kg provided the maximum authorised mass of the vehicle combination does not exceed 4,250 kg."

That might sound a wonderful get out clause for us UK citizens, but think about it.............. The new UK car drivers licence is for a vehicle no larger than 3.5 tonnes gross (a twin wheel transit or large Sprinter), so the vehicle gross wheighs 3.5 tonnes at the top of the licence category leaving you only........750 kilos for your trailer!

So to tow a trailer any larger than 750 Kilos, the new weight limit, you need to be towing it with a smaller vehicle, which restricts the legal towing weight of the trailer, as then you have to consider the cars towing capacity and limits, and you would not tow a large trailer with a Fiat 500!

In short, the UK have negotiated licence concessions for UK drivers, but once considered in their entirety in practice the entitlement is only as good as the rest of the EU, just worded differently!

Oh, and consider the UK licence exception for the towing...... if you put a twin wheel caravan (HEAVY) with something like a Toyota Land Cruiser (heavy) you would most likely be very close possibly even over that 4,250 kilo limit, resulting in needing to attain a higher licence category than a car licence..... A   Band E  entitlement maybe?

Food for thought folks? this is the EU for you, dont blame the Spanish, the law is the same in the UK........... Happy Motoring!

well 66d35 it seems you are under an illusion when you say.

I am under no illusions whatever. There are several issues here:

1) What has been happening currently;

2) The effect of the last update to EU Directives on this (1991, in fact) , with some countries still not entirely compliant;

3) The new, forthcoming regulations, with (at least partial) effect from January 2013.

With regard to (3) please see full text of the directive:

Directive 2006/126/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 December 2006 on driving licences

 You should read the directive you state about in your link. from a DVLA point of view 90%+ of this directive is already in force in the UK, and mostly in Spain also. The only difference that this legislation will make is to other member states that have not got the same level of enforcement, and this is what this directive is to do, bring member states up to the same level of enforcement. The type of member state like this is mostly states that were eastern bloc under the russians, E.g Latvia, lithuania, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. the type of state that it is more common , even now to find the mode of transport is donkey rather than Ferrari!

The only real relevant issue are the following categories in the directive,

"(4) In order to prevent the single European driving licence model from becoming an additional model to the 110 already in circulation, Member States should take all necessary measures to issue this single model to all licence holders.

(5) This Directive should not prejudice existing entitlements to drive granted or acquired before its date of application.

(6) Driving licences are mutually recognised. Member States should be able to apply the period of validity prescribed by this Directive to a licence without a limited administrative validity issued by another Member State and whose holder has resided on their territory for more than two years."

So item number 4? the UK and the Spanish are already harmonising to the EU model driving licence anyway.

Number 5? both UK and Spain are complying with harmonisation of EU driving categories under the Directive, which is why some entitlements are not being renewed as they are rights of what the UK calls "grandads rights", and extend driving entitlement beyond agreed EU rights, and so are being phased out as licences are renewed, in the UK as well as Spain.

Number 6? well if you propose residing in anther state for more than 12 months you should expect to exchange your documents for local entitlement, you have moved to that region! If you think about it, anyone that moves to the UK from outside the EU, even say the US has to validate their licence, and in many cases take a UK driving test to prove they have the skills required to drive within the UK, even though they have licences for their birth country.This is enforcable in the UK after 12 months residency.

Lastly,

"(16) The model driving licence as set out in Directive 91/439/EEC should be replaced by a single model in the form of a plastic card. At the same time, this model driving licence needs to be adapted on account of the introduction of a new category of driving licences for mopeds and of a new category of driving licences for motorcycles.

(17) The introduction of an optional microchip in the new plastic card model driving licence should enable the Member States to further improve the level of anti-fraud protection. Member States should have flexibility to include national data on the chip provided that it does not interfere with commonly accessible data. The technical requirements for the microchip should be determined by the Commission, assisted by the committee on driving licences.

I think you will find the UK, and Spain each adopted plastic cards for licences some years ago, and all the DVLA needs to adopt is adopt a microchip within the plastic card, which the directive states, "(17) The introduction of an optional microchip in the new plastic card model driving licence should enable the Member States to further improve the level of anti-fraud protection."

Note the word "optional" though you can bet the UK and Spain will adopt this measure in due course also.

So 66d35, i think you will find for the UK OR Spain there is not much difference to the licence now OR after this directive other than detail changes, and that you should still exchange your licence for one from your adopted country of residence i really dont see the reason to hold on to your UK licence especially if it is for the use of a private car, as there is no advantage to gain , and certainly it seems to create problems if you retain it.

P.S  66d35, would you care to detail the "This contains a number of important changes." you speak of, as i dont see any "important " changes just detail defining to previous legislation.

Try reading it again.

Alan,

that is very informative, Thank you so much for that.

 As Nicky71 says, yes it is very informative, but 66d35 i dont see your reply of "Try reading it again" points out the "number of important changes" that you claim are in the directive. Would you please point out these "important " changes, as i dont see much difference from existing legislation.

If you cant mention any changes that you consider are important this raises 2 questions,

1/ where and what are these changes?

2/ What difference will it make , if any to a person holding a valid EU licence, registered in the UK, or Spain?

One last thing, these changes WILL be the same in Spain as they will in the UK, so what difference will it make to an English person exchanging a UK licence for a Spanish one, if any, as the original thread , and its title refers to, "British driving licence and residence in Spain"?

 Back again, after looking at the car driving class definition it states that a driving category of class B is,

(b) Category B:

motor vehicles with a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 3500 kg and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver; motor vehicles in this category may be combined with a trailer having a maximum authorised mass which does not exceed 750 kg.

This has been the case for all driving licence  tests for a car since 1997, and has not changed since then and a sprinter or transit of 3,500 kilos gross weight is the largest vehicle you can drive on a car licence, and remains the same. if you have a greater entitlement ("grandads rights") this is being brought into line with the current entitlement AT ANY TIME YOU HAND YOUR LICENCE IN. wether for renewal, change of address, change of country of residence , etc. This applies if you hand it to the DVLA or the Spanish Trafico, there is NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever in the treatment of the entitlement, it is EU legislation, not Spanish, not UK.

I also notice the title of the directive you quote 66d35 is,

"Directive 2006/126/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 December 2006 on driving licences (Recast) (Text with EEA relevance) "

Note the date is 20 December 2006, and so this directive is 6 years old, it is not a new regulation at all as you, 66d35, are trying to imply. the reason things are becoming apparent now is that the enforcement is being applied retrospectively, at licence renewal or exchange, rather than immediate enforcement from a set date, and i think this is what is causing your concern as you would only know about this from handing a licence in to a relevant authority then getting it back with the changes applied

As i said earlier.........Happy Motoring!

 oh back AGAIN....... this directive also states,

"3. Member States shall ensure that, by 19 January 2033, all driving licences issued or in circulation fulfil all the requirements of this Directive."

SO........ the changes to your issue driving licence , if you do not hand it in at all for any reason, WILL NOT APPLY until 19 January 2033??  So 66d35, these are the imminent changes that you speak of? 

"3) The new, forthcoming regulations, with (at least partial) effect from January 2013."

2013? only if you hand your licence in before 19 January 2033 for ANY reason whatsoever, not just exchanging it for a Spanish licence. You say,

"One valid reason, for some, can be the loss of category entitlements. Important if you return to the UK and need to rent or drive vehicles in those categories."

the only loss of entitlements will be things like the 7.5 tonne entitlement (an english class) private use of large minibuses, and towing heavy trailers with large vehicles (articulation of the combination, which in my consideration should be separate from a car entitlement anyway). How many people use these entitlements, or are even capable of driving such classes safely? so isnt it better we all drive the right class of vehicle in Europe from a safety point of veiw, wether the licence is UK, or exchanged for a Spanish one?

And after all my rambling, if you exchange your UK licence for a Spanish one, you WILL STILL be entitled to drive a car UP TO 3.500 kgs, so whats the difference to currently? Just exchange the licence..........

Sorry to dissapoint, I wasnt sugesting that what robertt8696 &  66d35 isnt just gripping stuff but I did find Alan63s comment about residency and getting the licence changed etc interesting.

.I’m quite surprised to see how long this discussion has become! Some very interesting points. Alan63, looks like you have been doing some interesting investigation.

SO........ the changes to your issue driving licence , if you do not hand it in at all for any reason, WILL NOT APPLY until 19 January 2033??  So 66d35, these are the imminent changes that you speak of?

Many of these changes take effect from January 1 2013, approximately three months from now.

It is often the case with EU Directives that from the date they are passed, there is at least a 5 year period before they become effective. This is to give States time to get compliance measures in place.

If you would like one example of a specific (and important) clause that this document contains, and which has direct relevance to practices in Spain, note this:

For the purpose of this Directive, "normal residence" means the place where a person usually lives, that is for at least 185 days in each calendar year, because of personal and occupational ties, or, in the case of a person with no occupational ties, because of personal ties which show close links between that person and the place where he is living.

I should not have to point out how this conflicts with 'instructions' given by various officials in Spain. I should also point out that demanding a Certificate of Registration for European Citizens to complete any other administrative formality is itself prohibited under current EU directives.

 66d35 the directive states,

3. Member States shall ensure that, by 19 January 2033, all driving licences issued or in circulation fulfil all the requirements of this Directive.

So the changes may START to take place from Jan 2013, as changes are retrospective, not IMMEDIATE, as i pointed out earlier, and being RETROSPECTIVE, the directive gives the above provision within it, so that means if you do not hand a current licence in BEFORE 19 January 2033, this directive does not apply to your licence(as it is still in circulation).

Therefore, as i said, and you 66d35 disagree with, the directive would not then apply until 19 January 2033, due to the fact it is not IMMEDIATELY enforcable, only on surrender of your licence for  renewal or replacement. This would be nearly an impossibility in practice as to keep a licence from 2013 to 2033 (20 years from issue!) would be a near impossibility for anyone to achieve at all!

This also shows how cunning the authorities are as it would be next to no one who attained a licence in December 2012, and kept it, unchanged, for a maximum issue period of 20 years (January 2033), so the EU have covered their backs nicely. And that, 66d35 is why they define the maximum enforcement date as 19 January 2033, and NOT January 2013.

if you do not hand a current licence in BEFORE 19 January 2033, this directive does not apply to your licence(as it is still in circulation).

You have completely lost me there. Please point out the relevant paragraphs.

 I can see why you do not understand the directive if you cannot understand its statement,

3. Member States shall ensure that, by 19 January 2033, all driving licences issued or in circulation fulfil all the requirements of this Directive.

what it means is that this directive DOES NOT APPLY until you hand your licence in for administrative purposes in whatever country you are resident in. Once your licence is submitted for administrative purposes, ONLY THEN will changes be applied to your licence as the directive is RETROSPECTIVE NOT IMMEDIATE. 

This means if you attained a full driving licence of 20 years validity in December 2012 this directive has no effect WHATSOEVER on your new licence until you hand it in for updating. This means that your licence would not change if you managed to keep it unchanged for its period of validity, and would not take effect until its expiry date of 19 January 2033.(though you need to send the photocard in for administrative updating after 10 years, so you would never reach 20 years)

If you do not understand the implication of that clause contained in the directive i suggest you read the directive again , and then repeatedly read it until you thoughroughly understand its terms and its implication

I would also point out that this has no relevance to the original thread which was wether you need to change your UK licence for a Spanish one after a set period of residence in Spain. All that handing it in to Trafico will do is invoke the terms of this directive, and your licence will be returned , updated, with EU wide member state agreed categories applied to your existing licence.

The category applied WILL MAKE NO DIFFERENCE to the average car driver, so i do not see what "important" changes this directive creates that you 66d35 speak of but cant describe on this thread.

I completely understand it.

You don't however.

I have already given you one specific example that has considerable importance to holders of UK licences in Spain. That which specifies and unifies the "residence" qualification. As you (should) know, some Spanish authorities have been insisting that the residence period is only 90 days. This firmly sets it at 183 days. This has immediate effect from January 1 2013.

You may not consider this "important", but I imagine people who have been improperly fined or threaned with prosecution here might.

As for:

3. Member States shall ensure that, by 19 January 2033, all driving licences issued or in circulation fulfil all the requirements of this Directive.

That is all it means. It relates soley and entirely to the physical format of the licence documents/cards.

It does not mean anything else. It is really simple.

It certainly does  not mean:

 this directive DOES NOT APPLY until you hand your licence in for administrative purposes in whatever country you are resident in

That is, with respect, utter drivel.

 i hear what you state, but the scenario i repeatedly mention , is that the licence in your POSSESION will not change UNTIL you hand it in for updating , and that remains the case, BUT,

you are now stating one of the "important " changes you mention ,but until now have not defined, and this point DOES relate to the original thread.

My view of all the conflicting dates and time elapsed to become Resident is this,

1/ You MAY NOT apply for residency UNTIL 90 days have elapsed.

2/You MUST apply for residency AFTER 183 days , as 183 days x2 =366 days, and as there are only 365 days in a normal year, you have to be resident in your chosen country, as you have resided more than half of a calender year IN THAT COUNTRY

3/ if you dont register voluntarily as a resident within 183 days the regulation is that YOU MUST register within 2 years of moving to your country of residence. (the reason for this clause is two periods of 183 days must make an avearage of a resident and you have had fair chance to register voluntarily)

In my view, if you move to a new country as a resident and know it will be a PERMANENT move i really think you should update and register all relevant documents to reflect your new resident country, and this includes your driving licence, AT THE EARLIEST OPPORTUNITY. If you do this you will not have problems with the Spanish authorities with your driving licence, and you will be able to drive with no worries in Spain , or even the rest of the EU. As such 66d35, i cannot see why the definition of "residence" should be of any problem whatsoever, If you know you will be a permanent resident go and reregister your driving licence 

It really is that simple