British driving licence and Residence in Spain

 Johnzx, i hear what you say about actual events, but the regulation is that you MAY NOT apply for residency until 90 days have elapsed. In your example this still remains the case, as the person you know was refused residency status, but was advised to apply for an EU registration certificate which is a document to say you are a resident of an EU member state(undefined) and are permanently resident within the EU. This document IS NOT a spanish residents certificate. All an EU registration certificate does is endorses your right as an EU citizen to move freely within the member states of the European Union. This also gives you the minimum rights of protection of the law within the country you are in, employment rights ,Etc. In short it gives you much the same rights as a residents registration certificate, but is not a Spanish registration document, it is an EU proof of status.

There is no "academic" argument, that is how it stands, and is why he was advised to apply for an EU registration certificate as a precursor to application for a full residents certificate after 90 days. The EU document gives a timeline proof of EU rights, and an issue date that the member state can define in the eventual application for a residents certificate.

As we are discussing residents timeline to qualify for resident status, the UK is little different, so i do not see the problem 66d35 seems to forsee. The following links relating to UK residency should be noted, one is for residency , in the UK known as indefinite leave to remain, and also driving licence requirements for EU inhabitants;

http://www.workpermit.com/uk/permanent.htm

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Motoringtransactions/BeforeyouapplyC/DG_10035602

the workpermit site states the following,

You should note that to keep your permanent residence you should not spend longer than two years outside the UK. You should maintain ties to the UK and should consider the UK as your home. If you continue to only spend short periods of time in the UK over many years it is likely that there will come a time when you will lose your indefinite leave to remain in the UK.

therefore as in Spain , you MUST register in the UK BEFORE 2 years elapse, and remain mainly there to maintain your residency (185 days in the UK) this is the same as in Spain effectively.

As to your driving licence the Direct.gov site states,

Residency rules for European Union/European Economic Area (EU/EEA) drivers wishing to take a GB driving test

EU/EEA drivers who wish to pass a first test, or gain additional entitlement, must be normally resident in the UK. Drivers who have moved to the UK having been permanently resident in another state of the EU/EEA must normally have been resident in the UK for 185 days in the 12 months prior to the application for a driving test and a full licence. Normal residence means the place where an individual resides because of personal and/or occupational ties.

This statement also applies if you wish to change your EU licence for a UK copy, that is , after 185 days residence you are considered a resident of the UK and MUST exchange your EU licence for a UK one, just as in Spain.

Robert I think you are splitting hairs.

Residencia does not exist any longer (since April 2007) for EU Citizens, thus one cannot apply for 'residencia'..

What the guy got,  was exactly what every EU citizen gets when they register on the EU Citizens Register.

 well it is a prime example of an official office in either Spain or the UK applying rules rigidly , which some people do not seem able to accept.

Sorry, what does that mean ?

 Johnzx what it means is that your example is  a good one to give, and illustrates registration procedures in EU member countries, but it seems that people posting some of the threads on this site do not seem to comprehend, or even wish to abide by rules and regulations in Countries they have adopted. I would think you are kept busy in your job!

Robert

I have enjoyed your posts thus far regarding DL's, however I think your last posts have 'lost the plot' a little

Johnzx, i hear what you say about actual events, but the regulation is that you MAY NOT apply for residency until 90 days have elapsed(sorry wrong - you are allowed to apply for what is now residency (since 2007) if its your intention to live and work in Spain from day one). In your example this still remains the case, as the person you know was refused residency status(sorry wrong - only residency status now for EU nationals is 'Certificado De Registro De Ciudadano De la Union), but was advised to apply for an EU registration certificate which is a document to say you are a resident of an EU member state(undefined)(sorry wrong - the certificado is very much defined as Spanish) and are permanently resident within the EU. This document IS NOT a spanish residents certificate(No its not - they don't exist anymore). All an EU registration certificate does is endorses your right as an EU citizen to move freely within the member states of the European Union.(Yes but No - the Spanish version would not surfice if you wanted to buy property in France) This also gives you the minimum rights of protection of the law within the country you are in, employment rights ,Etc. In short it gives you much the same rights as a residents registration certificate, but is not a Spanish registration document,(THEY DON'T EXIST ANYMORE) it is an EU proof of status.(Well yes)

 Team GB you are also guilty of interpreting things as you see them, as there is no residentia certification now, Spain now request as you say , a "certificado de registro de ciudadano de la union". The translation of this is "certificate of registration as a citizen of the union". This IS the EU citizens registration that i mentioned earlier, and is nothing to do with being "the certificado is very much defined as Spanish" This document can be obtained in any EU country, written in that countries language, and is proof that you are an EU citizen. It is NOT "very much defined as Spanish" it is a EU document, NOT Spanish.

You also say that a Spanish certificate would not entitle you to buy a property in France, which is correct as the certificate defines you as resident within the EU , so as i stated earlier, it is just proof of domicile (that you are living within the EU rather than outside the EU) and as such allows you free passage throughout the EU, being a subject of the EU. This is why you could not use it to buy a property in France, or any other EU state for that matter. All the certificate basically does is confirms your status as a European citizen which you seem to agree with by your final comment, "(well yes)"

Your comments inserted in my quoted text also seem to  be contradictory as you say "sorry wrong-you are entitled to apply for what is now residency (since 2007) if its your intention to live and work in Spain from day one" and then your next comment says, "sorry wrong- only residency status now for EU nationals is Certificado De Registro De Ciudadano De La Union" . But the EU citizens registration certificate IS NOT a residency document, but you imply it gives you rights in Spain as a resident, so now who is losing the plot a little?

Hi Robert

I'm tired and want to go to bed so I'll be brief

Since 2007 they has been no other document/card for EU nationals that reside in Spain full time other than the Certificado. If you think this statement is wrong please post full details of the document/card that you think is applicable.

 Team GB i have located this webpage for applying for a EU Citizens registration certificate, which is the UK version of the document that you claim is, "very much defined as Spanish" It also states that, 

"When can you apply for a registration certificate?

All EEA nationals and Swiss nationals can apply for a registration certificate at any time."

This is no different from applying to the Spanish Authorities for their version of the EU Citizens Registration Certificate.

You can find the details of the UK version at,

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/documents-eea-nationals/

I hope this clarifies entitlement to apply for a EU certificate throughout the EU and that it is not a Spanish document exclusively

 TeamGB, there is no other card or document anymore for EU nationals residing in Spain full time, as under EU Harmonisation rules all EU residents are allowed unimpeded access to ALL member countries, the difference with us in the UK is we hung on to passport checks, as the government believes that a passport is sufficient to prove your country of origin , and therefore your citizens entitlement.

All other countries took onboard the Citizens Registration  system, which originally was envisaged to be your EU "passport" confirming your rights within EU member states as a "citizen" of the EU, and to which the UK also issues registration certificates as it participates in the directive. The difference with Spain, as the directive prevents the issue of a Spanish Residents certificate, due to it being descriminatory to members of the EU living outside Spain, the Spanish appear to be using the EU citizens registration as a replacement for the old Spanish  residency certificate. they are most likely doing this in an attempt to restrict immigration into Spain without proper authorisation, and do you blame them? Only problem is under EU agreement they cant restrict free movement between EU member states, though they are trying to do this with the EU Citizens Registration system

Please also see the link,

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/rightsandresponsibilites/

This also tells you about your  whilst in the UK as a EU national, and which Spain has a reciprocal agreement also, as they also subscribe to this legislation.

I hope this clarifies for you what the Spanish are attempting to do with the EU Citizens Registration certificate

Robert

You last post did not answer my question -  please take another look at my last post. The  EU Citizens registration certificate as you refer to it (correctly) can only be issued in Spain via the National Police duly stamped and signed - no third parties, no brokers, no online application, no ' other versions'. I miss understood one of your previous posts, you are allowed up to 90 days to apply should you wish.

Only personal applications with the correct paperwork at the nearest national police station are excepted although lawyers are now allowed POA to do this.

Do you really think that you would be allowed to to buy a Spanish property or get a social security number here with anything other than the ' Spanish version' - makes it pretty defined to me.

Good night for now

Robert

Sorry I missed your last post before I posted back.

TeamGB, there is no other card or document anymore for EU nationals residing in Spain full time

Thank you

I take your point on the other issues, I do tend to agree. There is no photo Id on the certificate so we are still required to carry our passports

1/ You MAY NOT apply for residency UNTIL 90 days have elapsed.

The use of the words above suggests that you still fail to grasp the very basic principles under discussion here. Kindly hear me out on this as I have spent 30+ years drafting and interpreting this stuff for everyone from various governments and major corporartions to the UN.

You have to understand that when EU citizens move to another country they do not - at any stage - have to "apply" for residency.

This is a fundamental treaty right and is set out very cleary in 38/2004 EC.

Residence rights are treaty rights. Provided said citizen meets the criteria set forth in 38/2004 EC, they automatically have a near-absolute right of residence. There are a small number of exceptions that revolve out involvement in terrorism and similar threats to national security, but these will not affect most people, and even then the bar is set very high.

It is critical to note that excercise of your residency rights are "not subject to any administrative formality". This is the exact wording of the rules. These rights are automatic, and you have them merely by belonging to one of the categories set out in the Directives.

Spain (or anyone else) may not lawfully, either "grant" or "refuse" residency. They used to do this, but it was ruled incompatible with the EU Treaty and the (various) Directives on the Free Movement of Citizens.

So, it is very important not to confuse residence rights as such with this "Registration" certificate. They are completely different issues, though I do agree with you when you said:

the Spanish appear to be using the EU citizens registration as a replacement for the old Spanish  residency certificate.

That is exactly what they are trying to do. It will not, in my opinion, succeed.

The Commission, and the Courts, have been very fastidious about upholding fundamental treaty rights, and in particular, those relating to the free movement of persons and goods within the EU.

This certificate is, in my view, being abused by the Spanish authorities.

There are already clear rules on this. The certificate was (and is) intended as nothing more than a confirmation that the person is an EU Citizen with a right to be here and who meets the criteria set out. Furthermore, after 5 years permanent residence is granted automatically, and not only is this not subject to any conditions, but any certificate is - by Directive - entirely voluntary. Hence, you do not have to have one. No further "renewal" or registration is possible either. Thus, these atempts to link such certificates to driving licences, medical treatment and so on are instrinsically flawed and unworkable (as well as being unlawful).  This is precisely why Article 25 sets this out in very simple, direct terms:

1. Possession of a registration certificate as referred to in Article 8, of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of a residence card or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof.

The effect of which is that demands to produce such a certificate in order to obtain/change a license are not compatible with the Directive.

Movng on... the time frame for registering....

It is stated here that

the regulation is that you MAY NOT apply for residency until 90 days have elapse

Sorry, but Team GB are quite correct. Any EU Citizen can apply at any time. This is what the Directive says:

Article 8 (2).

The deadline for registration may not be less than three months from the date of arrival. A registration certificate shall be issued immediately, stating the name and address of the person registering and the date of the registration. Failure to comply with the registration requirement may render the person concerned liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory sanctions.

Note "The DEADLINE for registration may not be less than three months from the date of arrival".

This means (in simple terms) that you should register BEFORE the 90 days up. This is the law on the topic , but, as we are probably all well used to by now, this is Spain, and it is buried in a mass of confusion and contradiction. In fact, you can register from day one is you wish to (despite what some offcials in Spain try to tell you to the contrary).

A specific issue is this attempted linkage between these certificates and driving licences. There should be no such linkage. It is crystal clear that this is incompatible with EU Directives and in the sense that the (2006) Directives on driving licenses does (in an indirect way) address this by setting the 'residence' test at 183 days, this is very helpful.

Some of these issues will probably require a referral to the various bodies within the EU that deal with mis-application and abuses of EU law. It is important, therefore, that people do insist on their rights being upheld, and do complain where abuses occur.

I really other things to do this week, so this wll be my last comment on this thread.

This message was last edited by 66d35 on 10/10/2012.

 Legal tip 835. Exchange of driving license 
10 October 2012 @ 09:56 

 TeamGB, with reference to you posting last night, the EU residents certificate, if the Spanish as you say only recognise the Spanish version, would be an abuse of EU directiveof the sort  66d35 mentions in his posting,

"A specific issue is this attempted linkage between these certificates and driving licences. There should be no such linkage. It is crystal clear that this is incompatible with EU Directives and in the sense that the (2006) Directives on driving licenses does (in an indirect way) address this by setting the 'residence' test at 183 days, this is very helpful.

Some of these issues will probably require a referral to the various bodies within the EU that deal with mis-application and abuses of EU law. It is important, therefore, that people do insist on their rights being upheld, and do complain where abuses occur."

To only accept a Spanish version of the EU residents certificate would be an abuse of EU law, as the certificate is a EU wide model determined by the EU and not Spain so any issuing countries certificate SHOULD be valid in Spain, not just a Spanish version.

Moving on slightly, 66d35 i find your comment "You have to understand that when EU citizens move to another country they do not - at any stage - have to "apply" for residency." somewhat naughty, the word "apply" was not used in the way you are trying to portray, i used the word in the english definition of having to "apply" yourself to the job in hand;I.E you must go to the Spanish office to make your attestation, not have to go there to qualify for a certificate, it is a different meaning to the same word and you are trying to APPLY the wrong definition to it (note the word APPLY in this context)

I do stand corrected about the 90 days definition contained in the EU draft , and yes if you read it thoughroughly you are right, you should submit your registration application BEFORE 90 days, but Spanish officials dont seem to interpret it that way. I would think if you were going to take up residency in Spain permanently this would be somewhat academic though as you would know from day one if you were going to live there permanently, therefore go with the Spanish official and do as he requests, and get your documentation sorted his way, and then there is no real problem for either side!

What a shock to the system!

 Alan63, i tend to agree with your comment,

"Although it seems that EU law backs up the Spanish system or there is provision for the Spanish requirements I would like to know why there is such contradiction even with the Lawyers/solicitors here in this country or is the law open to such diversity of interpretation?"

I think many people do not read or apply terms to written information properly or misinterpret their terms, and we are all to a certain degree guilty of this, but Spanish officialdom seems worse than most places!

you say,

"“taken up normal residence in Spain shall be subject tothe Spanish provisions relatingtoits term,” So my English licence is subject in Spanish law to the Spanish term"

and that,

"the holdershall ensure arenewalafter twoyears sincenormal residencein Spain"

this means if you have a minimum validity of your licence of at least two years, you can retain your licence, albeit restricted to the terms of a Spanish licence, and that after two years, if you have not voluntarily exchanged your licence in those two years you MUST then exchange it for a Spanish one, which will have a validity of ten years to next renewal, and that you must observe any new requirements to your licence qualification.

If i have interpreted what you say correctly, i do not see any problem with holding a Spanish licence, when becoming a Spanish permanent resident. This being the case if i applied to be resident in Spain i would be applying to exchange my UK licence for a Spanish one at the earliest opportunity!

You and many others would like to know the answer to this and many other questions that effect residents in every day life. At the end of the day you have to do what you feel most comfortable with (within the law as you are advised or understand it). My lawyer has told me to keep my UK licence until it expires (2019 in my case)

I can't believe people are still saying you have to change to a Spanish licence after 2 years residence in Spain.  The DGT website couldn't make it any clearer:

Cuando se trate de un permiso de conducción no sujeto a un período de vigencia determinado, su titular deberá proceder a su renovación, una vez transcurridos dos años desde que establezca su residencia normal en España.

www.dgt.es/portal/es/oficina_virtual/conductores/canje_permisos/

You only have to change it to a Spanish one after 2 years if your licence doesn NOT have an expiry date.   British licences have an expiry date (10 years for photo card), so no need to change it.

Don't know why people are trying to make things more complicated than they are.