British driving licence and Residence in Spain

 Well, it must be me, becaase I don't see they have done the same as Doug, I think they have done the opposite. 

Doug is a UK national, The spanish youngster (SY) are spanish nationals. Doug worked in Spain,.The SY worked in the UK. Dougs parents live in the UK. The SY parents live in Spain.

In terms of the EU directive (and consequently the spanish and UK law), Doug was normally resident in Spain in terms of time spent. The SY were normally resident in the UK in terms of time spent.  Dougs occupational ties were in Spain. The SY ties were in the UK. So in terms of time and occupational ties, Doug should take his test in Spain, and the SY in the UK. The only thing left is personal ties.

I have aready said that my view (but of course I could be wrong) based on the way personal ties are explained in the SRT (Statutory Residence Test) it relates to partners and children, not parents, once a person becomes an adult and are responsible for themselves. This would make sense, as otherwise, anybody whose parents are still alive woud have personal ties in their national country (assuming their parents lived there), and always be resident there.

On this analysis, Doug should take his test in Spain (as I said in an earlier post) and the SY in the UK.

So, the issue then arises with regard to the Spanish working abroad register, which they haven't signed, however, they are working abroad, and presumably have evidence, and as I have written, normally resident in the UK, so this must be a matter of fact. On this basis, then they must take their test in the UK, but, as I said, they will have hassle if, and when, they try to exchange in Spain, because of the register, so would need to provide evidence.

Unless I'm missing something ?

Kathyslad.

                  Well reasoned. I am with you on this.

 I am with Kathy on this, it appears when you reason it out that the Spanish in the UK have not done as Doug did, but if you reread Gus' post, they have done exactly the same,

"can someone throw some light on  two local spanish youngsters who have gone to work in the UK , some 2 years back, & whilst there have taken & passed UK driving tests whilst still being classed as spanish residents as they did not sign the ' Spaniards working abroad' register to temporarily relinquish spanish residency ."

Note Doug says in the above quote they passed UK tests while still being classed as Spanish residents and that they didnt sign the Spaniards working abroad register, relinquishing Spanish residency. So although i tend to agree with Kathy on this, their actual residency was NOT in the country that they took their test in, which is exactly the same as Dougs plight.

Just as with Doug, the only way to make this possible would be to come up with plenty of documentary evidence that what they did was within EU regulations, or, just as Doug, it would appear that their licence is also "fraudulent" (used in the context that knowingly or not, the licence is not properly applied for) 

Bet Doug wished he had never mentioned it!

Well after all this long debate about EU, fraud, etc. etc. etc. Is the general consensus still leaning in the direction that Patrick is a Crazy man thinking we British residence in Spain should change or British licences to Spanish ones?

I was just tallking to a friend who is a magistrate in the u.k. and she told me that if you become a resident in the U.K. you have to change your driving licence from a forign one to a U.k. one after 1 or two years........

Just thought I would as tis little bit of info in to the pot.

Apparently tht also applies to people from Jersey & Guernsey but I bet none of them realise !

 Nicky71, yes it is true, if you hold a EU licence, valid under EU licence enforcement agreements, but if your licence is from a non EU country you have to undertake a UK driving test and obtain an English qualification, as most countries outside the EU do not have a document exchange agreement with the UK. For such new residents it is , i believe, actually a deadline of 12 months before this is done, but if you know you are to be resident for longer than 12 months you may as well take a test and obtain a full, valid, UK licence sooner rather than later!

Guslopez, you are right this also applies to people from the channel islands, as they are not part of the United Kingdom, they are Dependencies, and as such are administered to a greater extent by the UK, whilst still retaining their own autonomy. This means any channel islands licence is not technically a UK one and separate rules apply to them. It would be wise if a Channel Islands resident moved to the UK to consult the DVLA regrding their licence status.

In both cases, once you are a UK resident, and have obtained a UK licence this means you can, of course, exchange it for another licence within the EU!

Though both your posts seem to have no relation to the thread title "British Driving Licence and Residence in Spain"

 The DL s of these countries can be exchanged:-

  EU, Jersey, Isle of Man, N, Ireland, Andorra, Australia, Barbados, British Virgin Islands, Canada, Faroe Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Hong Kong, Japan, Monaco, New Zealand, Republic of Korea, Singapore, South Africa, Switzerland, Zimbabwe.  (and I believe the Philippines too) 

PS Excuse me Robert for follow a post off thread !!!!!

This message was last edited by johnzx on 29/05/2013.

robertt8696 wrote;

" In both cases, once you are a UK resident, and have obtained a UK licence this means you can, of course, exchange it for another licence within the EU!  "

You can't , unless the EU country you are resident in would normally exchange it directly. A jersey/Guernsey licence exchanged for a UK one is not exchangeable for a Spanish licence. The licence states on it , once exchanged, where it came from originally.

The only countries that Spain will exchange licences with are EU member states+EEA members, Norway,Iceland & liechenstein..

non EU countries are ;

República Argelina Democrática y Popula, República Argentina, República de Bolivia, República de Chile, República de Colombia, República de Croacia, República de Ecuador, Reino de Marruecos, República de Perú, República Dominicana, República de Paraguay, República de Uruguay, República Bolivariana de Venezuela, República Federativa de Brasil, República de El Salvador, República de Filipinas, República de Guatemala, República de Serbia, República de Turquía, Túnez, Ucrania, Macedonia.

An in date photocard UK licence does not have to be exchanged until it is due to expire.

Any EU photocard licence that is in date does not have to be exchanged.

Holders of older licences that have no expiry Norway ( valid until aged 100) & Non-photocard German ones ( valid until death) )have to exchange them within 2 years of becoming a spanish resident..

Inormation from DGT here;

http://www.dgt.es/portal/es/oficina_virtual/conductores/canje_permisos/?tit=Canje%20de%20los%20permisos%20de%20conducci%F3n%20expedidos%20en%20Estados%20miembros%20de%20la%20Uni%F3n%20Europea%20y%20los%20pertenecientes%20al%20Espacio%20Econ%F3mico%20Europeo%20%28EEE:%20NORUEGA,%20ISLANDIA%20Y%20LIECHENSTEIN%29

& here is the part that states that they do not need renewal until end of validity,

Los permisos de conducción expedidos en cualquier Estado miembro de la Unión Europea o en Estados Parte del Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo con arreglo a la normativa comunitaria mantendrán su validez en España, en las condiciones en que hubieran sido expedidos en su lugar de origen, con la salvedad de que la edad requerida para la conducción corresponderá a la exigida para obtener el permiso español equivalente.

El titular de un permiso de conducción expedido en uno de estos Estados que haya adquirido su residencia normal en España quedará sometido a las disposiciones españolas relativas a su período de vigencia, de control de sus aptitudes psicofísicas y de asignación de un crédito de puntos.
 

& the bit that says the ones that are not in date or do not have validity have to be changed within 2 years.

Cuando se trate de un permiso de conducción no sujeto a un período de vigencia determinado, su titular deberá proceder a su renovación, una vez transcurridos dos años desde que establezca su residencia normal en España.

Legally the UK licence is the same as the last two in that it does not require renewal until age 70 but it does have a date on the front when the PHOTO must be renewed. But as the Spaniards & EU seem to think it is an expiry date then all's well & good.

Before anyone comments on the last paragraph, the offence , in the UK, is " failure to renew photo" nothing else, carrying a penaly of £1000 fine. There are no recorded cases of anyone being prosecuted ! ( & I know plenty of people who have out ofdate photo's ) You always have a licence in the UK , once test passed,regardless of whether you ever carry it or renew it.

 Johnzx, thanks for your off thread comment it basically clarifies what was earlier said.

Guslopez, your thread is good generally but i dispute what you say in the last part,

"Before anyone comments on the last paragraph, the offence , in the UK, is " failure to renew photo" nothing else, carrying a penaly of £1000 fine. There are no recorded cases of anyone being prosecuted ! ( & I know plenty of people who have out ofdate photo's ) You always have a licence in the UK , once test passed,regardless of whether you ever carry it or renew it."

   What the DVLA actually do is suspend your licence in an instance such as you describe, and technically you are driving a vehicle without a current, valid driving licence (as it is suspended), and if stopped the Police will inform you that your licence has been "revoked" (their words). The Police report this to the DVLA who then issue a summons for you to attend court to answer to a magistrate why you have not, in this case, renewed your entitlement. If you can prove that having been made aware you have subsequently renewed your licence, sucessfully , a magistrate usually lets the "offence" be discharged with no action taken. 

They do this with many "paperwork" offences, i personally know of someone that never sent his licence in for penalty points to be added to his record (silly boy) and i know for a fact this is what happened, and as he had by the court date attended to this the court office notarised his licence particulars, and discharged the case. Fine you say, but the thing was he had to travel from the Midlands to near Southampton for the court case, as he was stopped at the roadside in that area. Is it really worth all the hassle when all you need to do is comply with the law?

Oh, your comment of , "You always have a licence in the UK , once test passed,regardless......" is also factually incorrect, as the courts and the DVLA can with really bad offences disqualify you from ever again holding a driving licence upon conviction for grave offences. Where is this "you always have a licence in the uk"?

 Oh, and sorry we have gone totally off thread again but i feel things needed clarifying.......

Once you have passed a driving test & assuming that you do not commit an offence You always have it. You do not need to carry it  Only present it if required by the police at a police station of your choice.

The DVLA cannot suspend/revoke a licence If you have commited no driving offences there is no legal way they can enforce it. They have done it ,& have been made to rescind said revocations on the grounds that they are not legal as the person has commited no road traffic offences. They have also had to pay compensation & all costs.

The offence is failure to renew photo which is not a road traffic offence.It requires the DVLA to take civil action.

 motoring offnces should not be brought in to it as the are a completely different set of circumstances for which the DVLA can revoke a licence.

Won't they accept the report from the Police station where the theft was reported.

 the scenario i quote was not a road traffic offence, i think you should read again. He had already been found guilty of the offence , and the PUNISHMENT was to pay a fine, (which he did) and to supply his licence copy to the DVLA to have the relevant penalty points applied (which he did not) Not sending your licence to the DVLA ,IS NOT a road traffic offence as you try to allege, it is, exactly the same as non production of a licence for renewal of particulars and details held on your licence.(endorsements are licence details, just as your photo and expiry are)

You also say, "The DVLA cannot suspend/revoke a licence If you have commited no driving offences there is no legal way they can enforce it." you go on to state, "The offence is failure to renew photo which is not a road traffic offence.It requires the DVLA to take civil action." I think you will find that as their details are not up to date, which the person concerned is responsible to comply with, the person concerned is breaking the Road Traffic Act and as such is a road traffic offence, which is to have full entitlement for the class of vehicle you are driving, and as the licence is not up to date, it is invalid. The Police and the DVLA do not usually take further action if the discrepancy is rectified, and can be proven to be so, which is why they revoke the licence until you attend to it, and call you to court to have your licence witnessed and notarised to show you have attended to the matter. Only then will they retract the revocation. If you are stopped a second time with a revocation on your licence, you will be found guilty of driving without a full, curent , VALID driving licence and treated by the courts accordingly.

I hope this clarifies things.

 Oh and we are going deeper and deeper off thread........

Sorry Campos but I thought my post was very clear,  One cannot drive in Spain without having their DL in their possession

I did not add,  or an official temporary  replacement one when renewing it,  as that would be tantamount to a DL.

QUOTE;   Won't they accept the report from the Police station where the theft was reported

No, for obvious reasons.

That I have reported the loss of a DL  ( (or something else, say a passport etc)  to the police does not mean that I ever even had a DL

Robert

 Off thread ?  Hope you mean you and not me !!!!!!!!!

My post was about British (and any other) driving licence ............  in Spain

 Johnzx, a very good point, another that should be made that a fair few ex-pats should consider, is that if you are driving abroad (anywhere outside your country of residence) you should carry your owners document, your insurance and your drivers licence and MOT with you at all times, as it is a requirement of EU member states. Of possibly greater interest is that most countries now use this regulation to impound your car until someone can prove entitlement to drive the vehicle, with approriate paperwork before they will release it from impound (with a collection and storage charge daily. this is in the UK about £130.00 currently i believe). You get about two weeks then they will crush or auction the vehicle if you do not collect it.

For the inconveinience is it really worth it just for not carrying valid documentation?