The coming worldwide credit crunch

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04 Oct 2011 12:26 AM by Sanchez1 Star rating. 853 posts Send private message

06 Oct 2011 5:26 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

For those interested see the following

http://www.avaaz.org/en/the_world_vs_wall_st/?cl=1307656468&v=10603





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21 Dec 2011 8:14 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

TJ222 It's been a while so what's your latest prophecy for the Eurozone in 2012?

Are you sure you haven't a crystal ball? 

Happy Xmas by the way.





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22 Dec 2011 3:36 PM by TJ222 Star rating. 317 posts Send private message

 Hi ads

A very Happy Christmas to you, and to all on EOS.

Briefly to answer your question it was very easy to see what was going to happen even as long ago as 2007 when i first started the thread and actually much earlier. All you needed to do was heed the following quote from Von Mises the head of the school of Austrian economics.

"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved."

So we know from this that there will be a crisis, but there are two paths. One takes it on the chin and admits fault and abandons further credit expansion to paper over the cracks, the other goes on madly to the bitter end printing more and more money until the currency collapses.

Its clear where we are now with the endless expansion of debt and funny money, and denial of the real poroblems, but where will it end?

If policy makers decide to put a stop to the credit debt expansion, there will be a deflationary depression not just in Europe, but accross the world. This is what the free market is trying to do if only it would be left alone. make no mistake that this would be a painful process involving years of depression, BUT it would solve the problems albeit in a harsh manner and enable a fresh start to be made from a sound basis. Had this correct option been chosen years ago, we would now be seeing light at the end of the tunnel.

History shows that sadly this is not the route that is often taken. So we must prepare ourselves for an inflationary depression that will most probably end in destruction of the currency.

When you over blow a balloon you know for sure it will pop, but its actually virtually impossible to tell where it will first break. The same is true of economics. The weakest links go first, but where are these in real life.

My guess in 2012 is that there will be another recession in Europe ( in reality the last one never ended )and the austerity in the Med countries will get too painful, such that  further civil unrest will lead to defaults on soverign debt and exits from the Euro. The obvious candidates are Greece and Portugal to go first, but the rest will be watching to see what happens to them. Italy and Spain need to rollover 500 billion in EXISTING debt in 2012, not including new debt. This debt was financed at around 2% and now the market wants 5 plus. Imagine how that would work out for you and your mortgage!

I can see no other alternative than for the ECB to monetise the debt in 2012 or the whole region will implode as the bond market has had enough. Once the free market is gone it only leaves central banks to print the money, there is no appetite for lending of this money. Even if there was its simply adding more debt to over indebted nations that have a solvency problem, not a liquidity problem!! Solvency problems require restructuring, more debt just makes the problem worse.

Once the ECB goes nuclear on the QE, the Euro will drop like a stone and the stagflation will kick into high gear across Europe. At this point I think Germany may want to pull out of the top. The Med countries need a devaluation of approx 30% in order to get competative again, but this cannot happen from within monetary union. If the Euro was to lose 30% with Germany still in it, the Germans would simply romp home with all the trade and there would be no comparitive advantage that the PIGS desperatly need.

Timing is difficult because you don't know how crazy the policy makers will get to keep this doomed project alive. The one thing we do know is the longer the failure that is EMU is kept alive the more damage it will do and the bigger the final bill.

I note with interest that reality is starting to bite all over the place now with Europe and the economy. Where were they all back in 2007 i wonder?

Anyway what is your opinion ads?

 

 

 

 



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22 Dec 2011 4:11 PM by TheGuru Star rating. 35 posts Send private message

All that dosent really matter just enjoy christmas think of those less fortunate

Good wiil to all men

G



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22 Dec 2011 4:44 PM by D_B_S Star rating. 178 posts Send private message

Just arrived and checked into Sandy Lane Barbados - wall to wall Bankers most from the UK.

No sign of a credit crunch here.

Enjoy your Xmas we will before returning to Dubai then onto retierment in Oz.

David



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22 Dec 2011 5:37 PM by EOS Team Star rating in In Spain of course!. 4015 posts Send private message

EOS Team´s avatar

Welcome back to the thread TJ and thanks for your very in-depth overview of where things are at.

I remember back in 2007 when you first started this thread I thought that perhaps you were exaggerating things a little, but in actual fact in most respects you were, unfortunately for most, spot on.

And after reading your latest post now, although I don't understand everything you are saying (my little brain can't cope with so much!) I do think that we haven't seen the worst of it yet.

From what you are saying then, do you think it is the EMU that is ultimately the problem and therefore it will end up falling apart?  I even read somewhere recently that the Germans were planning for such a scenario and have even started printing deutschmarks again!  Surely not?

Justin



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22 Dec 2011 6:38 PM by rod Star rating in Uk and Spain. 468 posts Send private message

You are 100% right Guru we can WORRY and MOAN we should ALL count our  BLESSINGS

SPAIN and the UK are not perfect we KNOW, but at least  the READERS and CONTRIBUTORS on THE FORUM will all sit down on CHRISTMAS DAY and EAT a good meal and be warm.

I went out TODAY shopping and PEOPLE were nice and COUTEOUS and QUITE JOLLY  mostly the RETIRED  its been another ANNUS HORIBLIS we all know but they reckon 2012 will be a BIT BETTER

MERRY XMAS EVERYONE

 

 





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22 Dec 2011 7:25 PM by TheGuru Star rating. 35 posts Send private message

Yes will be arriving is Sandy Bay myself soon sorry a bit late D-B-S these private jets are so slow nowadays,please order me a Vodka Martini stirred not shaken and ask the matre de to park my Kossenigo next to your 65 DB10 and if you see Bob Diamond tell him he owes me 50 pesetas the robbing b--tard.

Chow

G





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22 Dec 2011 7:48 PM by Acer Star rating. 1537 posts Send private message

Totally agree Justin.  I've found your comments absolutely fascinating TJ. 

I don't mind admitting that on many occasions I've had to read the text through a couple of times to digest the comments, but well worth the effort.   I hope you continue to contribute as it seems we're far from being out of the woods yet.

Thanks again TJ.



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Don't argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.



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22 Dec 2011 7:56 PM by davmunster Star rating in Carvajal\Belfast. 843 posts Send private message

davmunster´s avatar

Here Here Acer!

The affects of what is happening are not evenly spread - some people have no debts and index linked pensions!  For the rest of us understanding what is going on is important.

TJ keep up the good work



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David





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22 Dec 2011 8:39 PM by D_B_S Star rating. 178 posts Send private message

TheGuru, tends to be more exotic Rum based drinks. Dont have to worry about a car as the hotel have some very nice German machinery that run you about in. Not sure where Sandy Bay is -- maybe Cyprus.

Bob isn't here, believe he is with his family in The Hamptons. Lot of fellow Goldman Sachs current and like me retired employees here enjoying the bonuses provided by the UK and European governments (tax payers) wanting us to shift their Bonds.

David



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22 Dec 2011 10:27 PM by theguru Star rating. 35 posts Send private message

Well DBS hope you enjoy your holiday with your banker mates,provided by the British Tax payer

Hope your having a good laugh at our expense

But never forget the old bank saying a rolling loan gathers no loss

 And you clever lot  havent worked out why its so busy let me explain its because everybody hates you so you have no place else to go

I rest my case

G

 


 



This message was last edited by theguru on 22/12/2011.



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24 Dec 2011 10:33 PM by TheGuru Star rating. 35 posts Send private message

Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.

G



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09 Jun 2012 2:56 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Hi TJ222

I would be grateful if you could cast your eye over this article by Paul de Grauwe titled The European Commission and the ECB must act now

 http://www.social-europe.eu/2012/06/the-european-commission-and-the-ecb-must-act-now/#comments and would appreciate your analysis/observations re his suggestions of how best to now deal with this crisis.

 

Also I wondered if you could cast any light on this

http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/582311/05-tesm2.en12.pdf

in particular the  reference to immunity from justice.

 

Many thanks!

 


 


This message was last edited by ads on 14/06/2012.



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30 Jun 2012 11:24 AM by TJ222 Star rating. 317 posts Send private message

 Hi ads

 

Hope you are well and enjoying the hot weather. I have only just seen this and will try and reply soon. In short i think its a good article which is mostly correct, but there are problems which need to be discussed.

The main problem is that when you have too much debt which all the PIGS countries have and the UK and France etc, there is no easy solution. Its tempting to think that you can interviene in free markets by using other people's money (people who have been prudent and not spent too much ) to try and FORCE interest rates down for countries that have borrowed too much.

But this has huge moral and other hazards. Its these hazards that need to be fully understood, because they can and do make things much worse in the long run. This needs some explaination, but essentially its meddeling with the free market processes that work to keep things in balance.

Everyone needs to understand that the financial crisis that we see now in Spain and all the unpleasant side effects that go with it ARE PART OF THE SOLUTION. The problem was always the boom. The unemployment and the recession and the property crisis are all part of the rebalancing of the economy back to a sustainable basis, its the clearing out of the toxic boom. When you drink too much or take too many drugs, the withdrawal as unpleasant as it may be is part of the healing. If you take more drugs or drink to ease the pain, it just prolongs the agony.

The bailout of countries and the buying of bonds or Eurobonds is getting in the way of this healing process and allows overindebted countries to avoid dealing with structural problems that were the cause of the problem in the first place.

Some measures of help maybe appropriate, but only if the fundamental structural problems are dealy with FIRST. This is essentially what Germany is saying and is the reason why they appear to be taking such a hard line.

What is now apparent is that Spain knows that it can be both a beggar and a chooser, because its too big to fail and allow the Euro to continue. In this way it can ask for help but not agree to tough and very necassary painful reform. The problem with this is that it may look like a solution in the short term, but longer term will only do more and more damage.

All the over indebted nations of the Euro need to get back to sustainable living within their means and there is no two ways arounnd this - it means a economic belt tightening and moves that will be very unpopular. If these moves are not taken then the crisis like an addiction will just roll on and on.

 

 

 

 



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