Is It Time For Plan B

Dear All,

is this a positive post???????????

"There are many who have lost all there life savings and there dream, I do not blame anybody for trying to have a plan a,b,c,d, whatever it takes.

The markets will turn around it will just take time, many many years this is just a economic cycle. Hang on in."

What possible plan could assist someone in the category noted??????????

As to hanging on and the markets, that is far too many two many many years for this old codger and even those twenty years younger.

To clear the backlog of millions of unsold, unwanted properties that are nothing like what they were supposed to be, will take an absolute miracle not a cycle change, I suggest.

Dream on if your means allow it, but don't attempt to spin your dream to others in difficulties.

Regards

Norman

"Dream on if your means allow it, but don't attempt to spin your dream to others in difficulties. "

So true and a wonderful quote Norman.

In the interim  would it not be much more productive to encourage fast tracking for legal return of monies where applicable, and thus stimulate a stagnant economy. If only the powers that be could recognise that those monies due to be returned to worthy clients caught up in legal delays, is being lost to the real estate sector as things stand now. There may well be many who would love to reinvest in good developments of their choice, just at the time when prices have become more realistic and currency rates remain in the euro’s favour (assuming there are still good developments out there!!). It’s crazy to think that the legal system itself is denying such potential. Shouldn’t the government be looking at realistic measures to encourage reinvestment at this time? Perhaps they are in denial or prefer to turn a blind eye to such instances. Cynics may well suggest that this smacks of protectionism in this economic downturn, if the majority caught up in this fiasco are foreign purchasers……

As for those remaining substandard developments, well maybe this is a self cleansing process of sorts. Who is to say that if monies were more swiftly returned as suggested above, that those purchasers would move on to other developments that actually meet their expectations, and all the while the original “substandard” developments (suitably discounted) were purchased by those who do not have the same high standard of expectation. Starter homes for those originally unable to get on the housing ladder perhaps? In other words you get what you pay for at the end of the day.

There is one major proviso to this scenario however, and that is to recognise that the majority of purchasers would rarely be willing to reinvest before actual return of monies occur, since this would only perpetuate the unhealthy risk taking scenario that caused problems in the first place.

Accountability is all in this battle to eradicate malpractice of all kinds, and who knows, if applied correctly and swiftly, it might just provide some stimulus to the real estate sector, while at the same time acting as a welcome disincentive for those developers/banks that have followed abusive practices to recognise that they have to pay the price in the longer term by far lower returns on their substandard builds etc......

On another point may I query again:

Why are lawyers’ complaints not appearing to be addressed by the Justice department? Such aspects as inconsistent rulings by judges, where Supreme Court rulings that have laid down a precedent, appear to be being ignored? Have lawyers that take issue with these instances been through the official channels to make their complaints heard, or are they just following through the existing lengthy legal process to get the judgement overuled? How optimistic are they that these instances will be closely monitored and appropriate action taken, well in advance of the courts becoming even more congested with oustanding cases? Yet more accountability required??? Or might the cynics suggest again that a blind eye is being turned by the Justice department during a time of economic downturn? Another form of protectionism perhaps? Protecting those developers/banks who have little right to be protected, given the abuse that has occured.

I truly hope not.

"Protectionism" is the key word Ads, and it covers a whole lot of things. REA's, Lawyers, developers, the banks....and the economic state of Spain.  Forget the morals!

If this is so then even more reason to bring this and other relevant matters to the attention of the EU Minister then?

Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead (Glenys Kinnock who replaced Caroline Flint in July 2009)

House of Lords

London SW1A OAA

I note that 22800 odd views have been made to the Rough Justice thread...now I know that not all posts have been made by those directly caught up in this scenario, but if those affected by this would only individually write of their specific details to their EU minister then perhaps she would have to take notice and act (this is not to mention all the signatures that have presumably been given via the Spanish Property Scandal petition).

The pressure needs to be maintained to make Spain accountable if injustices are increasing by the day, and then who knows we could go back to Plan A and invest in worthy products with good legal backing and in full knowledge that this "cancer" in the legal system/real estate sector/developers and banks malpractice had been eradicated.

It's in everyone's interest to get this cleared up and a workable solution effected via the EU ASAP.

Sorry Chimps this is completely the wrong psychology as all you are suggesting is succumbing to blackmail by the developer.

No no no. Make the developer accountable and keep the pressure on those doing the blackmailing.

 This is a compromise too far and is exactly the patchwork scenario I've mentioned before. It won't work. Why should Norman have to pay the price for the developer's substandard build and take on a property on a substandard development far from the marketing literature that he doesn't want? You don't seem to have grasped that principle here.

Difficult decisions regarding an effective solution to these injustices cannot be put off indefinitely, and right now is the best time to effect pressure for change. Take that pressure off by suggesting the option just described and you will lose the opportunity to positively move forward by eradicating the "cancer" at source. Pressure and accountability is all in this battle, more's the pity.

No Ads

Thats where we agree and differ at the same time.

I grasp the principle fully  To fight for justice all I am saying is try to keep yourself in the fight and try not to lose your money in the meantime

Norman shouldnt and Norman will lose his money. Why should he lose IF there is a possible way way to protect his money when he has been conned..  Even if its small ?Does that really effect any battle ?

I am not talking about succumbing to anything and nothing can be further from the truth. I really feel that in some cases you can turn most of whats bad against them.

No habitation licences.  Ilegal builds. Corruption. Lack of  the law. Abuse of the system to suit them (Why not see if can suit us)

Not getting what was specified and it goes on. I am not talking allowing developers and Banks blackmailing us I am trying to see if in some cases we can do that to them.

Battles can be won from many fronts and the last thing I want is to give this whole sick situation the time its cleary playing for.

As can be seen the real problem with pressure for change within the forums is almost a closed shop .Open only  to those with a case.

This way we are alienating the biggest support we should be getting.  WHY ?

Those that wish to join who are happy or are getting through are clealy not welcome ."WHATS HE DOING HERE IF HE DOESNT HAVE A PROBLEM" Blah ,Blah.,   WHY ?

Need to get rid of that for sure as the fight is between each other and not at the cause .Personal egos and snidey comments must stop if anyone is serious. If you cant get a united front then how the hell does anyone expect a real momentum for change to really get off the ground.

With respect this is wrong..   We all want change.  Dont shut us out.

Until  then let some of us fight our own corner so we are there for the next round.

Chimps

Can't you see that this form of compromise that you are suggesting in this instance only relieves the pressure on the perpetrator and adds pressure to the innocent victim? It's no solution whatsoever (be that financial or otherwise) given the development is so far removed from the purchaser's expectation. This method would only work if the development was worth the compromise, but in this instance it doesn't appear to be so. Hence my judgement that it appeared a compromise too far. No rental to cover outgoings, unable to obtain a sale without incurring major loss, unable to acquire desired property in the intervening years, increased community costs to provide the gaps in provision to make safe the development, landscaping etc etc.

I don't perceive that anyone is shutting the door to valid discussion through these threads but merely expressing their concerns and honest appraisal of suggestions put forward, on both sides of the argument. However I agree that it does no good for debate to be personalised.

We should  all be able to work together with a common aim in mind to achieve the change that it appears everyone recognises is essential in order to move forward and find a workable solution.

In the interim I still suspect that the only way forward is via pressure from the EU, as self correction appears unfortunately too great a task to achieve given the apparent reticence by the powers that be.

Having said all of this neither is this meant to dismiss those valid and honourable efforts of those aspiring to achieve solutions  in the interim,  but merely requesting that these be realistic scenarios that do not hamper the movement for change.

Hi ads

As you say this method would only work if the development was worth compromise.

His development is in in a very good area with what appears to be a good commitee so indeed the suggestion that all or some of his investment just could be saved makes complete sense.

It will sell when the market returns and one day return a profit. Not on Normans Penthouse perhaps but maybe on a much smaller negotiated investment.

In this thread I am fully aware of the perpetrators.. Sorting out switching of property in no way lets them off as they will still have thesame number left.   In Normans case a well overpriced apartment which has not been completed to specification.

Let  them take the loss on the open market and not rob those like Norman.  Whats the alternative here lose 100% of his money. 

100% agree that E.U intervention is the only answer and I fully support each and every approach as can be seen in the fight for justice thread.

Please be assured ads the last thing I am talking about here is about hampering movement for change. I just feel that if some can play their game then thats an angle until change in inforced as I beleive one day it will then go for it.

If just one like Norman can use the system to one day be able to say that in the end they didnt win then that will do for me.

If that means playing every game in the book then why not.

Come on you lot!!!

It is all about today, and I am sorry but it will turn around and it is a economic cycle.     yes your property is not worth as much as it was you made the wrong judgement, get over it.   If you made a investment  you got it wrong and stop maoning and move on.  All wise investors would be looking for the next profit to offset the losses.

As you say Chimps about Norman, not on his penthouse? well overpriced?, not been completed to spec?........Looking at his negative posts I hope you have not depressed this man into total submission.  You should be looking for positives as his replys to any thing that suggests forward thinking is totally quashed.

Live for today as if you wait for change it may be to late.

Tony

Dear All,

I am afraid this simple soul cannot comprehend Chimps when he is positive/negative, agrees/disagrees all in one breath, almost.

I am sure I have made my position very very clear many times.

My proposed "investment" was not any form of dream but a simple use of life savings to provide a superb highest possible specification luxury HOLIDAY HOME WITH EVERY POSSIBLE HOLIDAY FACILITY ON SITE. This to be a family asset for use and inheritance to said family. Because of age and temperament I chose penthouse position to limit possible noise disturbance from late night dancers upstairs. All in luxury tropical garden surroundings with CLOSED ON SITE SECURITY because my days of chasing robbers are over. As a family inheritance investment it was obviously intended long term until the family possibly got fed up with it 

I DO NOT NOW HAVE NOR HAVE EVER HAD ANY DESIRE TO INVEST IN RESIDENTIAL URBANISATIONS OF ANY QUALITY WHATSOEVER.

As such and for information only I have previously posted my amateur valuation opinion of what I was offered as £70,000 or thereabouts, that is less than the deposit I put down on the specification promised.

So how can I possibly fit in with any form of "Plan B"????????

I simply want my money back as I was totally cheated including the con over the mortgage which was supposed to be ALREADY IN PLACE ON EVERY APARTMENT AND AVAILABLE CHEAPLY TO EVERY PURCHASER.

THE WHOLE THING WAS A TISSUE OF LIES DELIBERATELY DESIGNED TO DECEIVE.

SO FOR PLAN B TO HAVE ANY MEANING TO ME IT HAS TO BE TOTAL RECOMPENSE SO THAT THE ORIGINAL INVESTMENT INTENTIONS CAN BE REALISED WITH ALL LESSONS LEARNED.

HOPE THAT IS CLEAR TO ALL POSITIVE/NEGATIVE THINKERS AND POSTERS.

Regards

Norman

Hello Tony

Norman  = Positive?   Na...    He knows through P.Ms that if there is anything I can do then I would.

Problem equals reality of the situation and see if a solution can be found. Then it may not be such a problem.

Its a cycle as you say and it will come around.

My veiw in situations like Norman is  .Whats the worst that can happen.? I lose all of my money.  Then I look at Plan B

Hello

Simple sole here,

I do feel for you Norman and very sorry that things have not turned out any better, at least you were not forced into completing and owe even more money on the property.

Have they built the properties?is there a FOL in place...or have they just done a runner!

Anyway as the Jungle in Calais has been ripped down today at least you can look forward to seeing more immigrants running through the green green grass of Kent. before they reach me in Surrey.

Tony

Yours is indeed a very sad case and on the fact that you didnt get what was specified then you should have 100% of your money back.  So keep fighting and I wish you complete success and I really do mean that.

Reality is such that had you had delivered a property in that location with the correct specifiction and you got the mortgage you would have been sitting on far higher losses now . It would possibly never be an asset in any event

 Not sure what you mean regarding valuation .Was that 70,000 back on your deposit as if so and taking the conversion rate into account then this may be the best you will get. Or 70,000 off the 425,000 being contract price.?

At the moment you want your 140,000? 30% deposit back..  Well how many wouldnt giving the market falls and the recession.

Did you have Bank Guarantee Norman which you can claim on ?

Did you check the agreed mortgage was subject to status?

Did you check that the contract price was fair and reasonable in that area.

Norman   Yes I do speak about postives and negatives. I also agree and disagree.

Norman perhaps you should take a leaf out of the book.  My offers of help and access to free legal advice were genuine so to look at any possible way to get you out of trouble. .That includes having to look at negatives,consider any positives and agree or disagree on anything can be done.

At the end of the day you had nothing more to lose and in no way would it take anything away from the fight for justice.

The sooner the E.U are brought in to force change the better.Until then its going to be a long haul for many including Spain

This message was last edited by Chimps on 22/09/2009.

Dear All,

thank you Chimps

but.........

Did you have Bank Guarantee Norman which you can claim on ?

Did you check the agreed mortgage was subject to status?

Did you check ?

Did you check ?

Did you check ?

No, No, No, I employed a nice young solicitor from European Legal Solutions at great expense who both understood the language and the "system".  I also believed what I was told in complete ignorance of the fact that they will all, without exception, regardless of supposed "professional" position, tell any lie whatever to relieve you of your life savings that they consider would be better in their pockets.

Now what advice can your friendly lawyer give me?

I have no objection to you revealing pm information on the forum but suggest you publish the whole pms for all to see.

Regards

Norman

Suggest you go for Plan C where you inform the EU minister of the injustices that are ongoing and include the specific detail to back your complaint.

Forward thinking?...... OK, so long as the Spanish government refuses to recognise the ongoing injustices and take swift action to address these issues, the EU should withold monies from Spain, establish a compensation fund and swiftly reimburse those who have suffered the consequences of malpractice, corruption, not to mention the unbelieveable court delays that are now significantly compromising those who continue to seek justice. No more patchwork unrealistic compromises that only cover up the underlying problems, it's time for accountability in all of this fiasco.

Norman .I have no problem with that

COPY P/M

Hello Norman

Dont know alot about your case.

Have a very good solicitor friend in Spain and she will I am sure give advice for free

Have you thought about down sizing on that development leaving say 100,00 to mortgage and rent it out.Dogs and all till this mess blows over

Is there a get out clause in the contract that states that completion is subject to being able to get finance

There are some great deals at the moment. Far less than I paid

Good area is El Rosario.   Marbella   Once the P.G.U plan which is supposed to be approved next month then Marbella must be one of the safest places to buy as far as legals are concerned.

Needless to say. Nothing Off Plan and trust no one.

Not even the manners to reply .Just off hand statements on an open forum

Norman

As I said..   I really do wish you well in your case.  Sorry for trying to help.

Your best bet is to push for change in the system along with the rest of us. Just hope the changes come along soon enough for you.

I will not reply to anymore of your postings

The sad reality is that no matter how well meaning any compromise offers may appear, the only way that significant change will be effected is to remove these underlying problems via united strong pressure. Remove that pressure via compromise routes and you lose that immense opportunity to effect change that everyone appears to agree is well overdue.