Should there be a second referendum?

I suppose the current referendum vote must stand for a reasonable time but not forever. A further vote may occur if driven by the mood of the public and recognised by politicians. However politicians don’t usually like putting their neck on the line for change if that change threatens in the slightest their self interest. There are the odd exceptions like Nicola Sturgeon who wants a weekly referendum until she gets her own way and then referendums will be abolished forever.

What a load or rubbish you are all talking

Windtalker has spoken, we must obey, praise the Lord. 

Angeleyes1 ... I see you have nothing constructive to add to the thread you must be pissed bored so let's try and cheer you up...  how are you getting on wilth the Gypsy's that live on Camposol ..I have heard off the pigeon fancier's and the Bingo caller that they are Tidy people...but who knows if this is true or not ...as I have not come across them myself so can't really comment on something I know bugger all about.

They are your relatives not mine.

You are off thread but all or any forum rules don’t seem to apply to you like using language ‘’pissed bored’’

Forum not overflowing then with Christmas spirit or good will. 😥😥

Feliz Navidad et Bonne Noel.🌝

Feliz navidad et Bonne Noel.🎄

MPs have spent the last two years infighting  instead of getting on with the job in hand...especially the Labour /SNP party's that have been trying to force a general  election by spreading fake news and doom and gloom ...now all the MPs are panicking and trying to extend the leave date ...as they do not have a business plan in place that will run the UK ...just about every day that has gone by over the last two years..the news has been full of Remoaners   moaning about the Brexit to a point that we a forced to turn the TV over to another Chanel why are these Remoaners getting so much TV time especially on the BBC news...we have less than 3 months now two put a buisness plan together ...that the country need's in place ...and yet these MPs from a posing Party's that have been spreading doom and gloom for the last two years ...trying every way they can think of to get a Democratic vote overturned ...have stll found the time to take 24 days  holiday when they have been shouting that the end is( Nigh )for the last two years...   even x MPs like Tony Blair have got in on the act as he can see that theirs is money to be made... and let's not forget Nick Clegg he has a book out on  how to overturne  the Brexit..what next.

All very interesting. What do you want us to do?

Angeleyes1...I thought someone like yourself ...that has a answers for everything known to man would have a easy way out of the mess we are in...The thread does say SHOULD   WE HAVE ANOTHER REFERENDUM..if you have nothing to add other than stupid remarks .move on STOP REMOANING .you did ask (what do you want us to do ).

I was only asking for clarification and your wise guidance. However as usual received your nasty attitude.

Bad Santa?

Perhaps this might be a starting point to educate your local MP and ask if they are aware of these facts, or ask specific questions relating to ongoing concerns via 

http://www.writetothem.com

FULL FACT WEBSITE:

https://fullfact.org/europe/brexit-deal-immigration/

•         Independence
  We're independent of government, political parties and the media. We've been quoted by politicians on all sides and corrected people on all sides.
•         Neutrality
  We don’t support any view or political party and have rigorous safeguards in place at every level of our organisation to protect our neutrality.

Who can stay in the UK after Brexit?

https://fullfact.org/europe/who-can-stay-uk-after-brexit/?utm_source=content_page&utm_medium=related_content

EU Settlement Scheme: Statement of Intent

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/718237/EU_Settlement_Scheme_SOI_June_2018.pdf#page=36

What does the latest Brexit deal mean for immigration?

https://fullfact.org/europe/brexit-deal-immigration/

Leaving the EU on WTO terms will pull down the barriers to world trade and cut prices for consumers

https://brexitcentral.com/leaving-eu-wto-terms-will-pull-barriers-world-trade-cut-prices-consumers/#menu

Also the following identifies an alternative and reliable economic analysis to the current treasury analysis.

https://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Alternative-Brexit-Economic-Analysis-Final-2-Mar-18.pdf

The following is identified in this report

“The results of a year-long project in which this was done can be found in the 2017 publication by Minford and Xu, Classical or gravity? Which trade model best matches the UK facts? This work showed conclusively that the Cardiff World Trade Model does, indeed, produce accurate results for the UK economy. Therefore, this is likely to account for an additional part of the different results between the Cardiff and Whitehall models.”.......

“So, in summary, what appears to matter is whether (a) the correct Brexit policy and other assumptions are fed into the model and (b) the model is ‘tuned’ to fit UK trade facts faithfully. If the correct Brexit policies are fed in, it seems that all of the models – GTAP, Cardiff, and gravity models – produce directionally the same results – all clustered around a positive 2 per cent to 4 per cent of GDP range. And the positive result gets larger the closer the model being used gets to the facts of UK trade.”

This message was last edited by ads on 24/12/2018.

The problem with Democracies is that eventually they allow for too much freedom of speech & action, which fosters a massive diversity in opinion.

A little like Committees, where the is much debate but little in the way of decisions.

Dictatorships, can and do get more done at the end of the day, but not always in the interests of all either.

Quite right Hugh, but what do you do with all these ‘’teddy out of the pram’’ losers?

I certainly didn't understand the pros & cons and I'm only marginally clearer now, doubt if I'm alone.  I've had an email exchange with my MP and she's supporting Teresa May for what seems to me to be the wrong reasons.  Possibly a bit of self interest involved.

The whole thing is a farce.  Initially I favoured leaving, but that was in part due to the alleged savings and getting out of the EU gravy train/bureaucracy - but I don't recall any mention of £39,000,000,000 at the time of the vote - isn't that "moving the goalposts" a bit? 

It seems to me that some important facts are still being brushed under the carpet to suit people's chosen stance.

Politicians don't do democracy they're too up themselves - it would be far better if a small team of business people undertook an analysis of the options and their long term benefits.

All that rhetoric you hear about Democracy is largely just a smoke screen in a capitalist society.

Democracy means free people making free decisions. Government of people by the people for the people. However in truth most people are not free in a Capitalist system as they depend on capital to live. People can no longer sustain themselves from subsistence agriculture for example.

So in order to provide a living it is necessary to enslave themselves to Corporations or the state. They then depend on capital flows and profits and make most their decisions out of fear that they will be denied that capital support. Freedoms and Liberties are in a principle then subject to status and affordability.

Something in Britain went badly wrong with that state of normality in June 2016 when the people voted in the referendum. The government of the day made assumptions that the people would vote in accordance with the accepted theory. ie: to continue to sustain themselves. 

The governments hubris was misplaced since a sizable portion of the population believed the EU membership was making them poorer. That the country was overrun with migrants claiming state welfare. That services as a result were in a state of terminal desecration.

The fact that these these beliefs were misplaced or even insanely wrong does not mean their choice or even the belief has to be set in stone for ever and a day. On the day that’s what they thought. On another day it MAY be different.

Today after so much debate and conjecture I believe the people have moved from that belief. Or at best enough numbers to change the majority vote. It would be surprising if the numbers were still equal to the result given the realities Britain faces..

So ask yourself is it wrong that peoples beliefs change? Is it wrong to give the people a second chance? Can the dire situation the country finds itself in be redeemed by a second vote?

If you accept at least one of those questions then the second referendum is necessary. If not essential to try and unify the nation and save it from economic hardship for years to come.

I agree Mickyfinn and furthermore

These are just some of the inequalities in terms of citizenship rights that exist between the UK and Spain, let alone the other member states. It's time to revamp and reboot our four-dimensional administrative paradigm shifts.

"Spaniards in Britain have the option to apply for UK citizenship after five years of residence, and joint nationality is available, but the situation for Brits in Spain may be very different.

Firstly, Spain only offers joint nationality to citizens of its former colonies, who can apply for dual or full citizenship after two years of residence, whilst everyone else has to prove 10 years of continuously living in the country. You really can't fail with knowledge-based policy resources.

Additionally, many Europeans in Spain – particularly pensioners and those living in 'expat belts' – speak little or no Spanish, which would preclude them from applying. This is unfair as Spanish donkeys only speak donkey language.

In practice, citizenship requirements are not very demanding – a multiple-choice quiz on aspects of legal, cultural, geographical and political life, and a test to prove Spanish language ability of level A2, equivalent to a good GCSE grade, are the only requisites besides not having a criminal record.

This is not impossible to study for from scratch in two years, and many town councils offer free Spanish classes. Our upgraded model now offers homogenised strategic options.

But not everyone wants to apply for British or Spanish citizenship respectively, and many fear that doing so could cause problems for them if they need to spend an extended period in their native country, such as for caring for a family member."

So many questions remain, such as reviewing the options for dual citizenship where fair appropriate and applicable, greater monitoring and effective regulation correctly identifying place of main residence and tightening of controls to counter tax avoidance (to counter abusive practice from both sides of the channel), option to review the benefit differentials between member states i.e. inequalities that act as irregular "pull factors" to be adequately and fairly re-assessed. It's time to revamp and reboot our three-dimensional transitional contingencies.

Presumably this is the OPPORTUNITY to review and develop a whole host of options leading to more effective control mechanisms, so as to attain greater flexibility than currently exists, to respond to the skill needs of the country and more importantly better forward plan and take back control for realistic sustainability of all aspects relating to inward movements of people, retraining of nationals, etc whilst countering abusive practices which lead to downward spirals of income and workers rights (given the realities that have arisen as a consequence of swift irregular patterns of migration), fair contribution of tax and receipt of benefits, health insurance where appropriate and fair, pension contributions and assessed rights for index-linking of pensions. The pundits have written us off since day one but our keeper’s made himself big to set up the counter attack and we’re not in the last-chance saloon just yet.

What better time than now to reassess and counter abusive practice from whatever quarter it may arise, to review and better deal with differentials, to better plan for the future, but equally attain a fair system that recognises and balances citizen rights with realistic financial commitments/obligations/contributions to the member state where citizens reside?

All of which have already been identified and tried to be resolved but the EU Commisioners were having non of it, so how are you going to achieve your reform measures so long as the Commissioners remain so intransigent?

Angeleyes - I I'm sure Spaniards living in Britain require more than just A2 level English to obtain a decent job. Even in Spain if any locals seeks employment in expat communities A2 is a required minimum. English is still the language of ambition.

Not that we expats should not learn languages. I have always seen it as desirable. Others have a different view particularly retired Brits. I like the Spanish am not especially hung up on language. I think it’s just a means to communicate. If you live in France however it’s a different story.

Sadly with Britain outside the EU English will decline in use throughout Europe in years to come. Along with that countries political influence and input. America is becoming isolationist. It is inevitable.

Good point ads, we’ll wear them down with torture.

If we keep threatening them with more and more referendums they will give in eventually. We could send over regular delegations of remoaners, which would put anybody off and drive them to insanity.

You could be right Mickyfinn, Benidorm may become a no go area. Bye bye Madge Harvey.

Keep your money Madge, Spanish speakers only now.

Back on track.... there have been many attempts to gain reform of the EU, all to no avail, so why should anyone believe that Brexit will make any difference to the Commissioners mindset?