Should there be a second referendum?

Ads:- If we were to debate the intricacies of global economics and comment on the excellent paper you have posted very soon the forum would shut down. I’ll comment on one small aspect of it only.

The UK can have a bright future outside of the EU irrespective of whether or not the UK is successful in securing an attractive trade deal with the EU, assuming Government implements the correct policies with regard to the exit and subsequently after we have left

The EU is the largest and most successful trading block on the planet. Without a deal the UK will be subject to WTO trading tariffs on all exports and imports. Effectively frozen out of the single market. Trade tariffs are a negative for business. The market always gravitates to a lower cost base.

Patrick Minford believes in global free trade. However all the evidence from the modern political climate suggests protectionism is on the rise. Trump does not believe in free trade. China and other nations will follow with restrictive trade tariffs in reaction to Trumps policies. That will leave the UK high and dry. Trump is unlikely to give a free trade deal to the UK that is beneficial to Britain. He will know the UK is on the rack post Brexit and will sense desperation. That’s his style.  

Even if Britain in 15 years or so succeeded in obtaining a free trade deal with all the G20 nations the trade lost to the EU after Brexit in revenue terms would not be replaced.

Suggesting the UK will be better off outside the EU is dishonest on every level. It’s a loss scenario. Especially for British people who will lose the right to freedoms of study, work, go on holiday, and retire to any EU state without bureaucratic barriers. EU nationals of course will still enjoy these privileges which in the long term will isolate the UK in future social and political exchanges.

The problem appears to be that there is too much political mantra and reporting sensationalism attached to this and too little lack of intellectual analysis in terms of what is in the best interests of the country going forward using a realistic economic modelling system which ironically is a criticism of both sides.

Why is there so little intellectual as opposed to political debate which surely would be in the interests of the people?

To use an economic model that is unreliable in this way does a great disservice to all, not only in relation to the analysis of Brexit but the whole economic scenario.

People should be asking their MPs to review this via http://www.writetothem.com  quoting the article in my last post and at the very least get some speedy answers on this.

Suggesting the UK will be better off outside the EU is dishonest on every level. It’s a loss scenario. Especially for British people who will lose the right to freedoms of study, work, go on holiday, and retire to any EU state without bureaucratic barriers. EU nationals of course will still enjoy these privileges which in the long term will isolate the UK in future social and political exchanges.

This might well happen, but then the EU might well fall apart when we leave, so it wont matter then.

Strange how people know what will happen if we leave, we do know though what will happen if we stay.

Why doesn’t the UK set up its own trading block union? They could cherry pick and exclude the lame duck countries which the EU can keep to themselves, and that’s only if the EU doesn’t disintegrate, just like the Greek and Roman empires that today don’t have a shilling to scratch their backside.

When you try and look at this from a wider perspective, you have to ask why do citizens of Europe permit the EU to continue to blackmail countries, to remain in a club that appears to be failing the people in terms of compromising their economies, their cohesion within, exacerbate unemployment following the banking crisis by failure to address realistic growth strategies resulting in large scale exodus of youth and potential skill sets, leading to unregulated movements of people which ironically compromises both scenarios I.e. countries suffering the exodus and those suffering uncontrolled immigration without adequate impact assessments.

Likewise why have we not questioned their disregard of stability mechanisms intended to protect.? Why have we not questioned the manner in which they have placed the Irish peace process at risk by a backstop mechanism that undermines trust, etc, without a willingness to demonstrate flexibility or recognise the need for timely reform.??....

It appears as extraordinary arrogance and intransigence with far wider consequences than first envisaged, but more fool the people for not questioning the EU commission’s motives and making them far more accountable. Ignorance is no longer bliss I’m afraid.

Thank you ads concise and to the point as usual.

As far as dogmatic politicians in the UK are concerned, I think there are still many politicians with good intent but somehow the system can become​ too " tribal ", too defensive, too blinkered  to the wider perspective and in that process leaders lose the ability to establish that fine ( and fair) balance between protection of citizens best interests and sound economic business practice. Swinging from one extreme to another, each undoing specific areas of progress attributable to party political beliefs, is incredibly inefficient and highly frustrating for "ordinary people", hence growing disillusionment in the political "establishment".Perhaps more political coalitions are required to establish greater balance, but I wouldn't write off all UK politicians. As for the EU, there is too much power in the hands of the few ( mostly ideologs) in terms of the Commission where new initiatives and policies are created, too little accountability when policies fail, too much defensive intransigence to reform and remain flexible to counter significant compromising impacts on citizens. Hence looking to the wider perspective we all really need trusted role models to achieve a greater balance, and with  the advent of the internet where greater communications exist between citizens, where debate such as within this forum etc, what better way to advance reform and make our Politicians of all persuasions more accountable?We should all never be too proud to admit to failures but strive for realistic solutions rather than purist ideology that sadly in reality appears to conflict  with citizens best intetests. What is required now are role models in both the UK and EU who demonstrate a greater moral compass willing to review the need for flexibility and review built into systems and policy making, that better  balance citizen vulnerabilities and sovereign requirements, with good business sense to the mutual benefit of all, instead of a dogmatic approach that only alienates and divides ( leading to unnecessary unrest). But it will also require getting the Govt's act in place to , reclaim NHS monies from relevant EU states in the interim periods where applicable ( reciprocal arrangement), having a coordinated forward plan of house building ( already underway in some regions), and who knows some form of balanced benefit system to take better account of differentials. Also the Govt have started to address a well overdue  apprenticeship strategy via an apprenticeship levy aimed at developing in-house skill sets in construction industry, care sectors etc. BREXIT appears to have kick started reforms that were overlooked or neglected by our previous PM and Chancellor.

We now know the full intentions of the EU in not letting the UK to leave, remembering Mrs May is one for staying in the corrupt club it now seems that the 'Best for England' deal she put forward to the club will not be changed,  now we know what the EU is up to, in the long run keeping the UK shackled to EU rules perhaps / maybe for ever.

She knew this all the time she was talking to them, slowly and surely adding bits and pieces to her own rules and words to help make the EU something the UK could never get out of in the hope that no one noticed, meanwhile trying her best  to convince the public 'Didn't I do well'.......Simply because she never wanted to leave anyway.

Surely now the only option that is left, like it or not is to leave with no deal what so ever, like it or lump it Mr EU, the people who want to stay in wont agree, the one's who want to leave might not like it,  time has now come to end all the talks, talking has done no good, and if we stay under her rules we haven't left anyway.

My bet is if we leave with no deal she would quit like Cameron because she didn't get her own way.

Hi Baz

It seems the end of the road is nigh. NO DEAL. I am not convinced Teresa’s heart was ever in a true real leave deal, she wanted a leave remain deal and that is not what was voted for. The EU was determined to punish us and make us a laughing stock in order to deter others from leaving. We just need to move on, and yes she will jack. At least we saved a lot of divorce money.  

Personally... I think the EU has got to strike a deal with the UK ..if they don't you will see wide spread riot's right across the EU .starting if France when the EU orders the French fishermen to stop fishing in UK water's and to stop trading with a not EU state / Spain will be next when they are ordered not to fish in UK waters or trade with the UK..80% of the vegetables that are grown in Murcia are exported to the UK....the list is never ending...the UK has nothing to loose and has plenty to gain.

You may well be right windtalker, but the EU chiefs in their ivory towers will still get their kippers for breakfast and that is always the problem.

Windtaler believes the UK has nothing to lose. Brexit especially without a deal means the nation loses the following:-.

Access to the single market of 27 EU states.

Free trade access to 37 other nations around the globe including the recent state of Japan.

Free movements of goods services and its people around Europe. Free to work set up a business, live, study, retire all with reciprocal healthcare.

Direct foreign investment because of EU market access.

A weak currency of parity with the Euro/Dollar or less.

Migration of financial service institutions to European capitals.

Digital services restrictions and roaming charges.

European institution including Galileo, Medical administration and employment in the European commission.

Now list please apart from higher inflation and lower house prices will the UK will gain? Without please using meaningless phrases such as 'taking back control'. The UK if it wants a free trade deal will have to follow EU law to the letter and be subject to ECJ jurisdiction.

Answers

- Free access to billions of people around the world

Negotiated free acess to 37 other nations

Free movement of goods, without free movement of layabouts and benefit claimants

Direct foreign investment despite the EUSSR

A Currency that floats and finds its own level instead of the Euro

Lower prices from worldwide goods

Saving billions each year paying for fat cat bureaucrats to dictate to us

Last but MOST important, freedom from a dictatorship which will crash and burn in exactly the same way as all the preceding dictatorships apart from North Korea.

Angeleyes

Perhaps also by previous governments who also failed to invest and reform.

Sadly more and more politicians are concerned for their jobs and their future and whilst many are well meaning, you are quite right about their ability to change things for the better with any haste.

Changes in benefits, just like the Poll Tax, were well intentioned but poorly explained and initiated.

Perhaps a strong U.K. leader would now present a NO Deal option and let the EU come back to us to continue to sell us it’s goods, sadly too many angels of doom are instilling on the public every day that a No Deal Wouk day be the worst possible outcome, so it’s very likely that a fair number who voted leave will now think.

Is it actually worth all the hassle and financial strife and we end up staying because the commons wants it.

You may get 2 divides, a) just stay in because we are sick of it all and cannot be bothered anymore. b) They have tried to screw us and humiliate us, OUT, OUT, OUT.

Most had little understanding prior referendum and since then it has been an exaggerated media show for entertainment and ratings purpose.

Generally politicians are only truly concerned with their own self interest and the majority never wanted out no matter what result of a vote.

If the UK ever needed a new powerful leader, it’s now, but does one actually exist?  Corbyn , Abbott, Johnson,  Widdecombe,  Farage ? Not a great choice is it?

Every so called MP should be ashamed of them selves...they are making a laughing stock of British politics...this IN /OUT referendum should not have been put down to a simple IN/OUT vote...all the political points should have been sorted before putting the vote to the public..the Remainers are calling for another vote ( WHY ) ...what do they want another IN/OUT for ...when even MPs don't know what they want ..one thing the British public have found out through all this is that the EU are a dictatorship with the power to bring down any of its members so called governments the EU is loving the way the profits of doom and gloom  from the INs are getting so much TV time. ....what started off as a good idea for trade back in the seventies has turned out to be a nightmare ..that has allowed the EU cartel to take control of the UK via the back door...  I voted OUT and personally feel that now we have gone this far out is the best way forward.

 ‘’all the political points should have been sorted before putting the vote to the public’’

Quite simply Cameron and his cronies could not be bothered and were too lazy, they thought they had it in the bag. They thought Nigel Farage was Ken Dodd but misjudged the mood of the sheep.

If there is another referendum a majority of people can still vote leave should they choose. That would settle it for good, pas de problème.

All sides of the debate no matter how frustrated should be striving for realistic facts with the various options going forward now, and try to remain open minded to all analyses rather than close eyes and follow purely political mantra.

Time to look to the realities without fear or political interference and strive together for the best outcome for all. Surely in this day and age of technology the backstop "impass" can be resolved if the EU were truly intent on retaining peace in Ireland. There appears much hypocrisy in regard to this considering the EU originally stated that their mission was to protect peace in Europe.

The Commissions'' "belittling" actions and rhetoric are sadly exacerbating the problem of division across Europe and appear to be wholly intent on dictating rather than negotiating. So sad to witness such behaviour amongst "friendly nations". IMHO the people should take note of this behaviour and make the Commission far more accountable in this regard.

Mickyfinn...what's the point in having another referendum..the last one cost the UK tax payer £130 million...if we did have another Democratic vote then it would have to be another simple IN / OUT put your x in the box vote...apparently the UK have 545 pages on the withdrawal  proposal's..and it seems like when you give any member of the British public including MPs anymore than two choices they just don't know what to do.

Why not... If people want to leave - they will vote so.