Patronising "No Reply" email

Taking your original points Mickeyfinn.

Have you accounted for the UK debt following the war that took all too many years to clear when making comparisons to the here and now?

Have you accounted for EU constraints on the UK from the EUs freedom of movement policy as it currently exists and all its impacts ( proliferation of zero hours contracts, downward impact on salaries, impact on infrastructure, health , education, etc) when making comparisons to the likes of Japan, etc?

These do not appear to be like for like comparisons.

You observe that free trade brings benefits, well this is the argument being put forward by the economists for free trade!

Just as one example, compare the oversight of failure to account for country’s current debts, which sadly has not been taken into full consideration by EU economists in terms of the need to assess differentials and adequate timeframes to implement policy, not only for the UK, but other countries constrained by such national debt.

In saying that I understand that governments actions can contribute to this debt, but to fail to account for this essential detail in the way that free movement policies have been created, without adequate inbuilt flexibility to respond to real scenarios ( not theory) that have led to unrest and disharmony, appears extraordinary.

But worst of all, the failure to recognise growing disillusionment and people’s understandable concerns relating to lack of control within their own member state, without adequate willingness from the EU establishment to address the need for treaty reform with inbuilt flexibility to respond, IMHO is a deriliction of duty.

People consider they have far more ability to make their own politicians accountable in their own member state than they have when it comes to the EU establishment, who have appeared dictatorial inflexible and intransigent in their ideals and policy making.

Follow that through with the failure or willingness to correctly assess and debate sound economic forecasting methods and willingness to find good workable and mutually beneficial solutions, and you see how intransigence and blind ideology only perpetuates distrust.

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Most people who advocate free trade do so without the consideration of the free movement of people. Goods services but not people. Seems like a slight irony to me. In fact, the EU has also negotiated free trade deals around the world without free movement of people. That freedom relates only to the 28 members and EFTA members. It does not create mass movements of civilisations invented by the scoundrel mongers such as Farage. In general EU migrants move to other countries because of ambition. They are mostly workers intent on improving themselves. They are therefore of benefit to Britain, not a scourge.

The development and changes in British working practices were and are influenced by both market forces and weak legislation or controls by the national government.  The EU bears no responsibility. Zero hours contracts do not exist in other parts of Europe.

I accept free movement brings with it added challenges but it also creates huge opportunities. Successive UK governments have enjoyed the benefits but never dealt with the challenges. The EU then became the bogey man, not British governments where the real blame lies for infrastructure deficits and austerity.

It is a tragedy that in the minds of many British people Europe has always seemed like a foreign place. Not what is actually is part of the same cultural mass with the same democratic values and aspirations for its people.

We can argue the toss ads till the cows come home and it won't change a thing. People will vote for reasons only known to themselves not the minutiae of intellectual debate.

The damage is done and I have sadly accepted it and prepared for the worst. Britain has become a very sad place in my personal perspective. A place I personally intend never to return.

Mickyfinn you are a very confusing person.

‘’The damage is done and I have sadly accepted it and prepared for the worst. Britain has become a very sad place in my personal perspective. A place I personally intend never to return.’’

So why are you banging on about it over and over again if you are never going back to the land of doom?

I did not have the right to vote in 2016 so I accept I have no right now to express an opinion.   All I am permitted is to look at facts

I just had a brief look at what I voted for when I agreed in 1075 that UK should stay in the EU

Angeleyes.

I believe passionately in the European project. Britain leaving it damages it. It's that simple. Europe will recover unlike I believe Britain who will weaken its political union with Scotland and Ireland and face years of of one sided trade deal negotiations with the rest of the world. 

Sorry Mickeyfinn you are wrong in your factual analysis and arguments about factors that led to the referendum.

“Following the submission of more than 80 petitions from workers in the 28 European Union member states complaining about abusive part-time contracts, the European Parliament passed a resolution “to end precarious employment practices,” in particular the use of part-time “zero-hour”' contracts that provide workers with few benefits and little job security. The directive would cover self-employed workers, domestic laborers, consultants, and freelancers.”

This was AFTER the event, as it was identified in June 2018.

As for infrastructure deficits and austerity it is no argument to turn a blind eye to EU policies that ACCENTUATED problems in member states without due regard to TIMELY implementation and the need for FULL evaluation of existing country debt ( or in the case of some member states the loss of their skilled workforces, or educated youth, without due consideration for the requirement for better managed forward planning).

We can all point to national political decision making that creates debt or the need again for TIMELY and MEASURED controls to alleviate growing national debt, but the point being that ability to CONTROL factors under such scrutiny is key to citizens disillusionment.

When control is taken away to adequately resolve internal problems of this nature, or limit the ability to vote in alternative governments ( and not be overwhelmed by other nations understandable self interests ) it becomes inevitable that lack of cohesion and division will proliferate across Europe if not managed fairly, flexibly and effectively. 

 Concern also comes from assumptions that requesting  a “common sense considered flexible problem solving approach” then becomes mischievously interpreted as a scourge on British society, who ironically in the main place great emphasis on inclusion and respect for one another. The reason people want this resolved in a fair and mutually beneficial way is for that very reason.... they don’t want this turning into a divisive us and them debate as has become evident over recent years.... citizens want their concerns to be listened to and effectively resolved, NOT ONLY AT NATIONAL LEVEL BUT ALSO AT EU LEVEL.

Lets hope this is recognised in the current days, weeks and years ahead.

I've just stumbled across this thread whilst looking for something else, and I gather most on here are 'remainers'. I'm not resident in Spain but I do own property there and visit several times a year. Now I haven't read all these posts in detail, but it would appear to contain most of the rubbish we in the UK have been forced to hear every day since the referrendum. Strange how 'remainers' seem to get more air time!

I am a firm Brexiteer and the result of the referrendum gave an instruction to that bunch in Westminster to get us out of the EU....plain and simple. However, politicians love to complicate things, and here we are nearly three year's later in a complete mess. We didn't actually vote for a deal, that was invented by the PM and her remainer cronies, who seem determined to ignore democracy, and unfortunately the EU mob have been in complete control all along, the very thing most of us voted against.

Does anyone actually believe that Merkel and Makron are going to willingly give up exporting to Britain? And does anyone think Spain will turn it's back on the Brits who contribute about a third of it's GDP? Spain has amongst other things, a massive car industry, making more than we do in Britain. Have a look at the car parks at Bristol Docks and see how many we import.

The world won't end when/if we leave the EU. Britain is at it's best when faced with challenges. Strange how we managed before the EU. Trade with the world was good and I can't remember travel to other countries being a problem. I wish everyone, in particular the media, would stop all this negative propaganda and accept the result!

One thing this whole exercise has proved.....there are no experts!

Sorry, rant over!

Hi rma37

Losers always cry the most, just like children that cannot have what they want.

We can learn a lot from children’s behaviour Kavanagh and how best to develop respect by providing a sense of security, trust, self belief and caring.... But also an ability to defuse tension by listening and responding in a firm consistent but rational manner! Not to mention adding a dash of optimism and hope into the mix!

Sigh.....

It's often quoted  that 'out of the mouths of babes and sucklings comes forth the truth'.🌝

Well said rma.

There are some people who haven't lived in the UK for years yet they want to stop Brexit for their own selfish ends. They dont give a toss about the UK as anything that happens here doesn't affect them. I have friends who live in Spain who want the UK to have a proper Brexit not Brino as they still care about our great country.

To the poster whom asked what about suzyhart,  No this question I asked regarding Brexit was not a windup. it was a geniune question to help me understand what Brexit would mean to us whom have purchased property in Spain.  It was asked on this forum because I assumed, rightly or wrongly, that people on this site would have some ideas due to it possibally having a inpact on us expats etc.

Please accept my apologies for being a bit thick and not having a total understanding of this issue. Your post did seem a little patronising.  Just my opinion which I am entitled to.

Suzy x

Well, I was actually feeling a bit sorry for you because hardly anybody seemed to be attempting to answer your question, instead turning to the usual bickering . I apologise if you thought I was being patronising, but to be fair, if you look at the title of the thread.....

Your first post asked "What will it also mean to british people whom have a holiday home in Spain." I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that this meant you have a holiday home in Spain. I believe I answered your question fairly succinctly - although I can understand how you may have missed it among the plethora of unrelated replies. Now you ask about "us expats" - implying, to me (maybe wrongly) that you live in Spain. Which is it? (rhetorical - no need to answer, since the general theme here is indecisiveness). 

xx

The UK government has issued information on consumer rights post Brexit.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/your-consumer-rights-after-brexit/consumer-rights-and-protection-after-brexit

If there is no deal with the EU the legal implications for UK property owners will be that disputes involving EU companies are unlikely to be resolved through the UK legal system. It will be for local courts to settle claims. That works both ways of course. UK debtors in Europe will no longer be able to be pursued through UK courts. That is going to have a profound impact on many Spanish communities who currently chase UK property owners in Britain for unpaid community fees.

As a third nation country, (none EU/EFTA status) British property owners in Spain will be required to pay slightly higher property taxes and other restrictions such as inheritances. These differences are listed here.

https://www.icaew.com/technical/tax/tax-faculty/taxline/taxline-2018/august-2018/1-how-brexit-will-affect-the-taxation-of-spanish-holiday-homes

Micky.  Quote.  That is going to have a profound impact on many Spanish communities who currently chase UK property owners in Britain for unpaid community fees.

I had a quick look.

 I did not see anything which would hinder action being taken in a U.K. court by an individual, company, tax authority, etc.   

On the question of inheritance tax.  I suspect if Brit’s become non EU then the law will be applied as it is now to non EU nationals and non EU inheritors.  Only about 17,000 euros tax free per inheritor   That is going to hurt! 

This would be a great situation for expats who have thrown the keys in on their Spanish mortgage because their property value dropped and have done a runner back to their semi in the UK.They will be debt free and be able to get that new conservatory and hot tub. 

John

The relevant paragraph reads:-

If you have a dispute with a business based in the EU, after exit day on 12 April 2019, it is less likely that you will be able to use the UK courts to try to put things right. If a UK court does make a judgement, the enforcement of that judgement will be more difficult. In that case, you may need to go through the courts of the country concerned rather than UK courts. This will also be the case for things bought before 12 April 2019, if you experience any problems after that date.

Remember it's a government document and for the words "less likely" read bloody impossible. The reciprocal nature of this applies equally the other way round ie: Spanish companies having a dispute with a British individual or company.

I suspect the upshot will be Spanish banks will be unlikely to lend to Brits in future without a hefty deposit.

 Micky, thanks for the link illustrating examples of how non-residents' may be affected. As I said in my previous post, "non-resident tax will be charged at a slightly higher rate" - which will be 24% rather than the current 19% for EU citizens. Having never been a non-resident tax payer, I was not aware that mortgage and maintenance costs can be offset against rental income, and quite surprised that you can even claim "depreciation". (Presumably only if actually declaring rental income? Not if only paying "imputed" income tax?) The example given seems a fairly feasible one, resulting in an increase in tax payable from €190 to €2,880. Not an insignificant change. And it should be noted that this is presumably for any Brexit scenario (i.e. deal or no-deal)? Is my interpretation correct in your opinion? Or is this going to be shot down as "scaremongering"? It seems to me that this is a real consequence of Brexit, not just another "Millenium Bug" fantasy?

Micky the way I read it is that if for example, hacienda want to make a claim for non payment of tax a Spanish court would not be able to make an order which could be enforced on U.K.    However hacienda could bring an action in a U.K. court, in which case that order would be enforceable in U.K.

I can't pretend to know anything about this, but I think there is something known as a European Court Order, which communities, or Hacienda, for example, can obtain via a Spanish court and then use to pursue the debtor through the UK court system. Presumably, once no longer an EU member, a European Court Order would have no validity in the UK, and creditors will have to make their claims directly to the UK courts - a process which most communities (although maybe not Hacienda) would presumably find too costly and complicated. I'm sure a quick Google of the subject will reveal more...