Patronising "No Reply" email

I agree with you John and well said rma.

Some of the people trying to influence Brexit dont live in the UK and havent done so for many years, yet they feel that they should influence the lives of those of us who choose to live in the UK, when really all they are interested in their own ends and to hell with the rest of us.

Whilst I understand your take on this John and the need to be proactive with MPs, MEPs, never underestimate the power of educative posts that in their own way influence and assist in understanding the differences in culture, systems, and psyche in a country quite different from the UK.

As for Brexit and the discussions that have taken place, in all honesty there has been as much to learn about the EU as the UK, especially when Spain is so tied into the European project. Sadly however, reactions to much of the information provided has frequently been from a negative and divisive perspective, frequently cynical and mocking in nature, almost competitive, where the focus has tended to be defensive, instead of trying to seek out mutually beneficial solutions to problems.

For many who aspired to live or have holiday homes in Spain, there has been a massive (and continuing) learning curve associated with the culture and justice system, let alone all the practical aspects to living or owning property in a different country. And this again is where educative posts have been a godsend if the truth be known.

But enough of that, suffice to say this forum is a great way of understanding differences in opinions, which in turn has the potential to assist in comprehending all of this from a far wider perspective.

Who knows, hopefully that in itself will gradually help heal at least some of the wounds for those who have been so sadly disillusioned with the EU establishment during this past decade and beyond, I.e. those who have witnessed first hand the impacts from failures to protect, failure to reform, failure to listen and respond to all manner of problems that have arisen, and subsequently led to Brexit.

Hmmm Mickyfinn. I suggest you ignore my previous advice about sitting in the sun and chilling........I think you've had too much sun!

You would do well joining the Westminster lot, like you, they pick and choose what part of democracy they want. You don't accept the democratic result of a referendum, yet you want the democratic privelidge of voicing your opinion.

You admit to help fund a scheme/s to turn around the result of our referrendum, that sounds pretty much like trying to influence to me!

Anyway, don't bother to respond, I for one won't be looking at this thread anymore....better things to do!

Regardless of your repeated protestations to the contrary John, I believe everyone is affected in one way or another and as such even your contribution here is not necessarily a waste of space! It's only by discussing difficult subjects like this and sharing opinions that we can all come to a greater understanding of the situation. Let's try to continue to do so in a friendly and cordial manner.

rma37, you said previously you were posting for the last time but you can't resist, can you?!!! You said "The statement in the £9m booklet issued by Cameron and paid for by the taxpayer, said it was a 'once in a lifetime opportunity, leave means leave, and there will be no going back'! " Is that a direct quote? I think you may have added your own emphasis there, but never mind, I get your point. You also said "People who voted to leave are not the ill informed idiots, as many try to make out....and will have had good reason why they voted out." This is an interesting point.

I think a great many people who voted, regardless of which way, were extremely ill-informed. That's not saying they were idiots; more that the government and whoever was responsible for that booklet were idiots (and probably fairly ill-informed themselves). The booklet talked a bit about trade, but I seriously doubt this was a major motivating factor for most voters (of either persuasion). I've noticed that recently the term "no-deal Brexit" seems to have been replaced with "WTO Brexit quite a bit, and I wonder at what point trade was assumed to be the main issue for people? Even the dreaded backstop seems to be thought by most to be all to do with trade. The booklet sent out by the government in 2016 made NO mention of the Irish border and/or the Good Friday Agreement. This simple fact astonishes me. I grew up in London during the "Troubles", but thankfully, other than being regularly incovenienced by bomb scares etc., was not directly affected. It would make no difference to me personally if there was Irish reunification. But how anybody can ignore the possible threat to the peace that has endured for 20 odd years and put their own personal agenda before that really, REALLY puzzles me. NOTHING, in my opinion, can be more important, and the fact that the potential damage to that peace process was never even mentioned in the booklet seems not just idiotic, but bordering on criminal to me. 

But back to the reasons people voted to leave. I noticed a post on Fakebook today by an old acquaintance who used to have a bar in Spain but moved back to the UK before the referendum & now lives on benefits. It's obvious from the rubbish he shares from far right wing sources which way he voted, but today another mutual acqauintance (still in Spain) asked him politely why he thought we (meaning the UK presumably) would be better off out. His answer completely surprised me. He said it was due to "all the shit we had to put up with in the bar", and added that "what works in France, Germany, or the UK doesn't work in southern Spain or Greece". I know that they had to install disabled toilets in their bar, and that the cost of doing so was crippling them, but other than that, I can't for the life of me work out what he means. Nor can I work out why he thinks that, being back in the UK now, leaving the EU will make his life better. I'm genuinely flumoxed. Is he an idiot? Is he just ill-informed? Or is he hiding his real reason because it's too inflammatory? I'm at a loss!

‘’now lives on benefits.’’ Says it all, the wonderful UK.

Roberto,

Have you considered that it might be the EU that have “ used” Ireland as a ploy within their negotiating tactics, in full knowledge that this would be a means of pressuring the UK into accepting a customs union?

This could equally be argued that this was an unforgivable tactic to use, especially when neither side wished to compromise the peace process.

Ads for a change I fully agree with you.

Angeleyes, I admit I included that (perhaps irrelevant) snippet of information because I strongly suspect that having moved to Spain to try and "live the dream", things clearly didn't work out too well for him and he is now maybe an angry white middle-aged man looking to take out his frustration on....anyone or anything he can hit out at. That he appears to have aimed that frustration at the EU really baffles me. But perhaps the majority of "Leavers" do have more rational reasons.....?

Ads, I've no doubt the EU are using every tactic available to achieve their preferred outcome, as any sensible negotiator would. But I really think it should be remembered that it wasn't the EU that chose to have a stupidly simple binary referendum on a very complicated issue. None of this unholy mess was their idea or of their making!

There's an old adage that you can't put an old head on young shoulders. In a sense, it's only the future that will prove who in this debate had the most understanding of the consequences of leaving the EU. By then the young will be old and the old will be gone. Human life is a continuous conveyor belt.

Likewise, I remember the seventies and the decades before that. The postwar struggles, shortages of almost every stable product, industrial conflict, poverty. Memories have faded for many the young and the middleaged believe all they currently have is a god given right and never question how it's been achieved. Until it's not there anymore.

I believe people voted to leave because they forgot one unassailable principle. The current level of prosperity has been achieved by trade. Trade and demand from Europe in goods and services and the wider world. Not exclusive or separate but together. Interrupt that trade for whatever reason and the inevitable will happen, a return to the difficult days of my youth. I believe the best deal the UK has is the one they currently have enjoyed for years.

Brexit without a deal will cause a shockwave that will need decades of economic restructuring to recover from. However, at least the leavers will know who to blame. 

Today the EU voted to allow visa free travel to UK passport holders, deal or no deal (as long as we reciprocate). For visitors.

I cant add the link for some reason so please google  visa free travel for UK citizens in the EU  for more info

Jon

It's the ERG and the rest of the right wing nutters infesting the tories who have used N. Ireland as an excuse. The same right wingers who have moved their money out of the UK and will make millions from it. meanwhile UKIP racists have joined the tories to de select people like Grieve who can see the pathetic English Nationalism will actually cost the UK dear. The tories will be out on their arses as soon as....which is why they are resisting a GE

Mickeyfinn and Roberto,

The EU divised a system for a member state to leave, and yet when a country actually democratically decides to leave, why should it be acceptable for the EU to then employ a tactic that places the peace process in Ireland at risk, and in that process also use purposeful ploys to “ interrupt trade” between the departing member state and another EU member state? Especially when they have demonstrated willingness to devise trade deals with other countries outside the EU. To suggest that this is not a ploy to punish and deter is hypocritical.

Surely it would make better sense to focus on effectively solving the problems that led to disillusionment, to demonstrate willingness to reform and listen to citizens concerns that led to such disillusionment, rather than threaten all other member states that this is the price one pays to leave! 

Such intransigence and failure to listen and respond is sad and so unnecessary.

the problems causing "dissolusionment" were austerity visited on large parts of England by the tories and the millionaire owned press who blamed it all on immigration. That's what the whole Brexit stuff is about...immigration and thinly disguised racism....all made in England (not the UK) and not a lot to do with the EU

Whilst politicians have lied from start to finish as usual,  FAKE exaggerated media news for financial gain has played a big part in all this, from causing a referendum, the result of it and the milking of it ever since. They have manipulated public opinion by sensationalising stories like EU immigrants are dipping the benefits purse, UKIP and Nigel, the money bus. They have stirred up hatred and disagreement between the public as well as politicians all for their own financial gain.

Roberto, you're right. I did say I wouldn't post on here again, but I keep getting messages telling me someone has added to the discussion and some of what I read makes me want to respond.

I don't know where you live or whether you have seen the booklet, but it is quite clear on the last page what the referendum was for. Cameron and his cronies wrote it, or certainly signed it off, and I quote this time word for word. My previous post was written from memory.

" A once in a generation decision. The referendum on Thursday 23rd June is your chance to decide if we should remain or leave the European Union. This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide".

I've kept my copy for reference and because it cost the tax payer so much money, not only that, they stole the aerial photo of Felixstowe Docks from a friend of mine. There were lies from both sides, scaremongering from the Government and media. I didn't need to be 'informed', I knew exactly why I wanted to leave....being governed by a bunch of people who are 'appointed' and work in the main for Merkel and Macron, while the good old UK has to toe the line and cough up an extortionate amount of money to fund the rest of Europe. OK we get some back but it's still one sided, and if you factor in the amount of contracts in the UK awarded to other EU countries we are way out of balance financially.

The second reason is Immigration which is causing countless problems here. johnmcmahon. I don't know where you live but the South East of England is getting so crowded we just can't take any more. Roads and schools are full, the NHS oversubscribed, and crime increased. The free movement in the EU is largely responsible. Immigrants all want ot settle in this part of England and it's impossible to manage! Nothing to do with racism.

It's interesting to note that a lot of effort was put in to disclose the amount of private donations made to the Leave group, and whether it was lawful, but when these troublemakers were reminded of the £9m taxpayer funded booklet, it seemed to die away!

Mickyfinn I too am old enough to remember what is was like pre EU. Britain was great, not perfect by any means, but we produced aircraft, ships, cars etc etc and supplied the world I remember the optimism of growing up and entering industry and producing goods sold worldwide. We had a massive skill base!

Our Goverment has wasted three valuable year's during which we would have made progress, no question, because that is what we do. I fear we have now created a generation totally disillusioned in politics and the establishment, who will probably never vote again!

What I find extremely annoying is folk who live abroad trying to kill off Brexit. People such as Branson are only looking after their own interests, and most UK newspapers are foreign owned and push out misleading fake 'facts' to manipulate opinion!

Ads, I totally agree......I don't think anyone listens at any level in politics.

Kavanagh, I totally agree about the media.

Just realised I've ranted again......sorry

I live in Scotland and many like me have had to go to the SE for work....my last stint was 5 years ago...and I don't rule out going again...although maybe the scots will have the same travel and working permits needed for non Englanders in the future

rma37 - just below the thread title you will see a toggle switch labelled "Follow this thread". Just switch it to off, you won't be bothered anymore 

Ads - you accuse the EU of "employing a tactic" that places the peace process in Ireland at risk, and yet the problem is essentially that the Good Friday Agreement & Brexit (pretty much any kind of Brexit) are mutually incompatible. But the EU didn't come up with the idea of Brexit. You actually sound like you're accusing the EU of defending peace. 

Johnmcmahon - I think you hit the nail on the head: just like my old acquaintance whose Spanish dream turned sour & is now living in disappointment, the underlying problems are made in England - not Brussels. The referendum unfortunately gave that disillusionment & frustration an outlet.

This message was last edited by Roberto on 05/04/2019.

ads; The Irish backstop is a logical tool in the withdrawal agreement which protects the single market in the event of the second round trade talks failing and to avoid any hard border in Ireland. It is there at the request of the Irish Republic. It is not the EU behaving intransigently, more protecting the interests of the remaining 27 members. The UK wants to leave remember not the other way round. The backstop does not threaten the Good Friday Agreement. On the contrary, it strengthens ties between the two sides towards the aim of a peaceful, united country which must, in the end, be a positive conclusion.

In fact, most people in Northern Ireland accept the backstop. It's the extremist DUP and their friends on the Tory right who have made it such a divisive issue. The DUP is the final bastion of resistance to a united Ireland and will use whatever power they have to retain their historical position as attitudes to their cause change.

Now I’m confused as I thought that Northern Ireland did not want a United Ireland, as you suggest Mickeyfinn, and wanted to remain in the Union of the UK, so why would the EU try to force through that scenario by suggesting that Northern Ireland would want to change their minds through the process of Brexit, when everyone thought that this was already protected through the Good Friday agreement?

This doesn’t make sense.

I thought that both sides agree they are not prepared to put the Good Friday agreement at risk and would be willing to find a bespoke solution to the problem ( without any threats) , given this is the only physical border that exists with the UK, and yet the EU, from how you have described this, appear to be suggesting that if the UK follows the democratic option to leave that this in itself has compromised the Good Friday agreement, even though they have no intention of doing so. Doesn’t logic then suggest that it is the EU that is trying to force through a change of minds for a United Ireland via any option to leave?

Gosh this is complicated and this complication in many people’s minds who have sincere hope for the Good Friday agreement to be respected, appears to have  arisen by a purposeful intention to try and force Northern Ireland to “change its mind” to remain in the Union. Does that concern not make sense? 

This message was last edited by ads on 05/04/2019.

Ads:- Northern Ireland as a whole voted in the referendum to remain in the EU by a majority of 56% against 44% leave. A wider margin than the UK as a whole. That suggests that a majority of their people want open borders with the Republic. If the DUP by their own classic intransigence, a word you like to use, succeed in erecting a border by default between the two Irelands that majority may turn against the party. It's not difficult to see that in the event of a no deal a border of some form would have to be created otherwise Ireland will just be a back door from the EU into Britain and vice versa. If Ireland then joined Schengen which is very likely in this scenario, free movement of people would continue into the UK.

In fact the DUP has said this week that no Brexit at all would be a more favourable outcome than no deal or any risk to the union with the UK. Which is rather an odd statement since not supporting the Brexit withdrawal deal self evidently means a risk to both.