Patronising "No Reply" email

Mickeyfinn,

When you say “ that suggests that the majority of their people want open borders with the republic”  is the conclusion to this is that you are suggesting that the Good Friday agreement in effect forces the UK into a customs union following Brexit, and that no bespoke deal or some form of technological arrangements to overcome this between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland would ever be possible? 

Also haven’t the EU also now stated that any new member state would have to join the eurozone? So how does this tie into the existing forward decision making process for the people of Northern Ireland?

I note that the remainers always point to the 48% in England who voted to remain in the EU and say that we should listen to them. Then they say Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain. What about the 38% and 44% from Scotland and Northern Ireland who voted to leave? Obviously in remainers eyes these people should be ignored. If the EU want to build a border between NI and Eire that is their choice.

It is not the EU who want a border between the north and south Ireland. It will likely be forced upon Northern Ireland by the UK government so Britain can control its borders which is the very thing the leave campaign fought the referendum on.

It may be possible in the future to have some form of technology solution to goods and services at the border but how does that control migration? If migrants know all they need to do is enter Ireland and then a passage to the UK how does that mean taking back control?

The backstop is designed to prevent this from happening since Ireland will not enter Schengen and the external border of the EU will continue as is with free movement between Ireland and the UK which has been the case since 1921.

Yet more confusion I’m afraid Mickeyfinn, as 

”Ireland did not sign up to the Schengen Agreement because it "would not be in the interest of Ireland to have a situation where the common travel area with Britain would be ended and Ireland would impose both exit and entry controls on persons travelling between here and Britain and, in addition, on the land frontier".

So if Ireland were to subsequently sign up to Scheghen as you suggested in a no deal scenario, then it would be they who were compromising the border wouldn’t it?

The saddest thing is that it is highly likely that the UK will lose all the benefits that come from Freedom of Movement

I thought the point was for the UK to decide who they need as opposed to having no control over this process?

I tend to agree perrypower1

Immigration into the UK has been 70% non EU who have and still are a big drain on resources. This immigrant population is multiply rapidly. Generally the 30% hardworking immigration from EU nationals has contributed to the UK economy. It is sad the racist card has been so misused throughout BREXIT. Protecting our borders has always been a myth created by racists and the scaremongering media.

I sincerely don’t understand why is racism linked to the need for control of what labour and skills are required, when the UK has already demonstrated the  desire for inclusion in our society....again I’m sorry but this doesn’t make any sense.

Ads I am surprised at your comments, I thought you had more intelligence.

Racism exists in the UK like it or not (or deny it or not) and it was used for the exit vote with the take back control of our borders myth.

You're right ads, it doesn't make sense. I've heard people in Lincolnshire saying they're sick of all the east Europeans who come to work in the fields, saying that "we did the harvesting before, we'll do it again". I can't wait to see that happen! Racism is a very sad fact of life. It would be lovely to agree with you that the UK has demonstrated a desire for inclusion....but I think perhaps you are not seeing the reality. 

On your questions about controlling borders, ads, yes, that was the Leave campaign claim, the idea of "taking back control" of our borders. But as I said previously, nobody (Leave or Remain) back in 2016 thought of or mentioned the Irish border issue. There is no form of so-called pure Brexit that can end freedom of movement whilst at the same time respecting the Good Friday Agreement (which represents PEACE!!!!) Nevertheless, the likes of UKIP & ERG obviously are not interested in any potential threat to that peace and the DUP also seem intent on a hard Brexit depsite the irony that this would be the most likely thing to ultimately result in a re-unified Ireland - the one thing they are most opposed to. You said that you thought that Northern Ireland did not want a United Ireland; the DUP certainly don't - but they don't even have a majority in NI, so don't assume that the people of NI don't want a united Ireland. It may not happen any time soon, but there's a certain inevitability about it, as the younger generation is now majority Catholic. Brexit could well be the catalyst. As it could be for an independent Scotland; what a sad & sorry little irrelevant country the United Kingdom of England & Wales might become (and Jacob Rees-Mogg says nothing is more important to him than the Union that he risks destroying!)

You also asked "haven’t the EU also now stated that any new member state would have to join the eurozone? So how does this tie into the existing forward decision making process for the people of Northern Ireland?" I'm not quite sure I understand your question - if NI left the UK and became part of the Rep.of Ireland, naturally they would adopt the currency of Ireland - which is the euro. 

Yes, Perrypower, it's extremely sad that our future generations won't have the same opportunities as their counterparts in every other part of Europe. Take back control, and lose our freedom. What a great tagline!

I find it interesting that the Leave supporting press have turned on the PM for "betraying" Brexit by talking to Comrade Corbyn. Interesting because Corbyn is a known Eurosceptic. So - a bit like parliament: they don't want the Tory solution, but they don't want Labour invovled either - so WTF do they want?

Incidentally, regarding the £9m the government spent on the referendum leaflet that someone mentioned a while back; this is probably chump change compared to what has already been spent on preparing for a possible no-deal, let alone what may be spent in the actual event. Presumably Leavers are OK with this though?

Just as an example, I receive daily email updates from the government website - and the following is just part of today's update. Imagine the workload our civil service has been inundated with as a result of Cameron's clever idea allowing the people to make a decision on something they know next to nothing about - when we could & should have been concentrating on issues that actually need attention.

International Agreements if the UK leaves the EU without a deal

The UK is taking steps to deliver continuity across a number of international agreements that we currently participate in as a member of the EU.

5:03pm, 4 April 2019: Updates made to the following agreements:Moldova Air Services Arrangement, Bosnia and Herzegovina Air Services Arrangement, Serbia Air Services Arrangement, Republic of North Macedonia Air Services Arrangement, Hague 2007, Hague 2005, INTERBUS, UK-US Agreement on Mutual Recognition, UK – Switzerland Trade Agreement, Norway and Iceland Trading Arrangements, UK-US Marine Mutual Recognition Agreement, Vine and Wine, Indonesia FLEGT, EU-Armenia Comprehensive and Enhanced Partnership Agreement’, Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between the European Communities and the Republic of Azerbaijan, Political Dialogue and Cooperation Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Cuba, Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Iraq, Strategic Partnership Agreement Between the European Union and Japan, Enhanced Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Kazakhstan, EU-Singapore Partnership and Cooperation Agreement (ESPCA), Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between the EU and Turkmenistan (PCA), Parternship and Cooperation Agreement establishing a partnership between the European Communities and the Republic of Uzbekistan, EU-Armenia Comprehensive and Enhanced Partnership Agreement’, Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between the European Communities and the Republic of Azerbaijan, Political Dialogue and Cooperation Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Cuba, Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Iraq, Strategic Partnership Agreement Between the European Union and Japan, Enhanced Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Kazakhstan, EU-Singapore Partnership and Cooperation Agreement (ESPCA), Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between the EU and Turkmenistan (PCA), Parternship and Cooperation Agreement establishing a partnership between the European Communities and the Republic of Uzbekistan, North Atlantic Ocean

Remember: this is just part of what was just updated just today! What a f***ing waste of time & money.

Roberto

Sometimes I think the world has gone mad. ''The UK is taking steps.'' Imagine the job satisfaction and feeling of self worth by all the Anoraks involved in that rubbish while others visit the food banks.

I suppose it’s the same as the advert. Wanted Lincolnshire cabbage pickers, minimum wage, no facilities and own clothing. 5.00 am start. Brit nationals only. Queue at farm gate Norwich ends in Scunthorpe.Must start tomorrow, Rupert and Camilla demand cabbage for Sunday lunch.    

Or alternatively...Talk about a web that entangles it’s prey isn’t in it!!! 🤨

But seriously.... I thought that these agreements were meant to have been copied over with the approapriate references of EU altered to UK, or whatever? Word scan and replacement can do wonders these days! Do you know the computer automated processes involved in this detail Roberto? Presumably these are not new agreements but modified country references? So perhaps not quite as time consuming as implied? 40 years worth of agreements looks to the here and now, not what has gone on in the past. Does that make sense?

Of course there are other issues that we all want our Parliament to focus on, but equally don’t turn a blind eye to the fact that political shanagans from ALL quarters within the Parliament over the past three years have played their part with what appears a strong resolve to scupper the democratic vote to Brexit. 

When talking of the Irish situation, it was only when the EU identified its decision to create a backstop in the withdrawal arrangement that this was debated.... so how could this have been known at the point of referendum? This alongside all the queries discussed to date implies that the EU appear to have had intent to use this in their negotiating stance. The details re Ireland’s decision to opt out of Schenghen only goes to confirm this. Much of this debate hinges on the sequence of events if we are all honest.

As for racism, we can only speak as we find and in the main the UK is not racist and has always been focused on placing great emphasis on retaining cohesion.... which is not to say that there aren’t areas where this constantly requires close attention. As with all countries, but to generalise in the way that several posters have done of late, is to do a great disservice to the majority of UK citizens.

ads wrote- it was only when the EU identified its decision to create a backstop in the withdrawal arrangement that this was debated.

Hehem ads!. The backstop was in fact created between both negotiating sides to accommodate Mrs May's red lines. ie: no separation of Northern Ireland from the UK. It was a compromise agreed by the UK government without consulting her own party. It was not an EU creation.  

Whenever I speak to British people about why they voted leave I almost always receive the same reply that there are too many immigrants in Britain. They usually mean England of course. Not wanting immigrants in your country does not necessarily mean people are racist but it's fairly close. To me, people are just people wherever they originate.  The same emotional response was widespread in previous generations when the Windrush immigrants came from the Caribbean in the late forties and the Ugandan Asians arrived when kicked out by Amin.

I never hear grumbling from Spanish people about the millions of Brits and others that populate their country. So my conclusion is I am afraid the English are pretty intolerant towards foreigners and so, in fact, are the French. Racism is different, it's ugly and vile but sadly there are many and every country has them.

Micky.

John. I write from personal experience. Yours may be different. Neither of us have a monopoly on truth. It may be true that a majority of immigrants to Spain from northern Europe bring with them financial support. Whereas immigrants to Britain and France generally seek it. That creates the grumbling perhaps? In fact, what European immigration does is support the economy of ALL nations and free movement of capital and labour is a major source of wealth for everyone. I accept immigration from elsewhere is perhaps less desirable in economic terms but not in humanitarian.

Mickeyfinn,

Perhaps worth reading this detailed analysis which looks at the highly complex sequence of events that transpired and see the way that the EU approached the Irish backstop issue. The clue is in the title “ "Divide and Rule: how the EU used Ireland to take control of Brexit". But as ever all of these details are open to individual interpretation?

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1019/1005373-backstop-tony-connelly/

Whatever people’s take on all of this, the bottom line is always how can a mutually beneficial way forward be accommodated without perpetuating division and undermining cohesion?

So difficult....

.I cannot access that link ads. If the Irish backstop proves to be the one issue that leads to the UK crashing out of the EU with no agreement it will be a tragedy and a failure of historical proportions. I would expect Mrs May to resign and the ERG under Johnson to take over the country. Many might think that would be a positive thing but for British people in Spain it's a negative. The concessions on offer from the Spanish government to keep our rights are conditional on the UK doing likewise and negotiations will need to take place and agreements ratified.

Leaving without any agreements in place carries huge consequences for everyone but I suspect that's where Brexit is heading. 

I’ll try posting the link again Mickeyfinn. It’s too long to copy all the text in!

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1019/1005373-backstop-tony-connelly/

Of course I understand your concerns for mutually beneficial arrangements to be reached between Spain and the UK.

John has just posted a YouTube footage on another thread that demonstrates the growing frustration and the call for EU reform.

To be honest as you are no doubt aware from many past postings, I have been highlighting the need for reform for many years ( and concerned that failure to listen and respond would result in growing division and the undermining of cohesion), but I have sadly concluded that unless there is a major shift in the European Commission and Parliamentarians willingness to listen and pay heed with rational timely workable solutions with inbuilt flexibility to review and respond to changing circumstances, then we are better off out of the EU.

Sorry no better. Not to worry.

I think after the European elections we are all going to be pleasantly suprised by the speed of EU reforms. Junker was not open to root and branch change. He will be gone after the elections. Guy Volkenstatat has been at the forefront of calling for reform in the EU parliament. Even Macron has spoken extensively of the need for reforms. Nothing is set in stone but sadly whatever happens the UK will not be involved and could have made major contributions to the process. A source of sadness and lost opportunity for everyone.