Who should be next UK PM?

Not so Mickeyfinn,

The inflexibility of the core principle to fairly evaluate using all data is in question here and the ability to respond to economic circumstance that exacerbated unnecessary stresses on nations, and the failure at that time to swiftly plan and develop growth strategies to better compensate for such factors.

To sit by and watch the negative impact on cohesion across member states from such an inflexible approach and not recognise the risks associated with the rise of other extreme elements in some of those member states and how this led to challenges to the rule of law, to the growth of disillusionment of an establishment intended to protect just beggars belief.

The irony is that when it suits the EU establishment to do so it manages to find such flexiblities, such as turning blind eyes to the stabilising mechanisms ( that benefited it strongest member Germany), turning blind eyes to strict entry criteria intended to protect.... To quote the bailout of Greece is an extraordinary example when it was the EU establishment that disgracefully turned blind eyes to strict entry criteria and placed Greece at enormous risk, leaving them with a debt that will take many generations to control. All these factors have been debated long and hard.

 Not to mention  placing an Irish peace process that took years to establish at risk in such a clinical and inflexible manner appears extraordinary.

There is much hypocrisy relating to such an inflexibile approach where ironically citizens are ultimately scapegoated in that process.

Reform of the establishment is essential if growing disillusionment and distrust is to be addressed going forward, to the benefit of all.

Roberto,

Its the lack of ability to control that is in question...to control and best organise according to the needs of a nation.

It has already been stated that Europeans living and contributing to the economy in the UK will be protected, and to suggest otherwise is wrong.  But to suggest that control is not an essential criteria to effectively manage a country’s ability to forward plan and protect its systems and infrastructure etc, to continue to be able to place inclusion and integration high on its list of priorities, is to deny a country the right to protect itself from factors outside of its control.

Due diligence was done prior to Greece's accession to the single currency. The Greek government committed a massive fraud by covering up the true state of its economy. That fact is well documented.

The Irish backstop is a logical demand to both protect Ireland and the EU external borders. It is not intransigence to expect them so to do.

Your theoretical principals that institutions should bend their core values as the headwinds of circumstance cause difficulties would create nothing short of chaos. 

The Uk decided to leave the EU not the other way round. Why on earth would you expect the institution to accommodate a nations divorce demands that would damage its own security and credibility? What you write makes no sense.

To state that the massive fraud conducted by Greece was without  EU knowledge not only does a disservice to the truth, (they chose to ignore the “ irregularities”!) but also questions the ability of the establishment to recognise fraud if and when it occurs. 

It also fails to recognise the influence and power of the Banking institutions on governments, but that’s another debate no doubt!

Its like comparing factors associated with the financial crash and denying that there was negligence and major failures of regulation and compliance within the financial industry to recognise fraud and the failings of complex structures that left  world economies at great risk.

The Irish situation is a classic example of failure and willingness to seek out methods that are perfectly feasible to accommodate a solution...this again has already been debated and evidence presented to demonstrate what has happened behind the scenes, so to deny such detailed discussion appears sadly intransigent in itself. It’s not theory Mickeyfinn, but uncomfortable facts.

Likewise, this is not just about the UK, but about recognising failures and uncomfortable realities that need addressing for the sake of all EU citizens. To admit to mistakes made and seek out good rational and fair solutions.

This message was last edited by ads on 25/06/2019.

Due diligence was done prior to Greece's accession to the single currency. The Greek government committed a massive fraud by covering up the true state of its economy. That fact is well documented.

How did that happen then Micky when the world and its wife knew the way the Greek tax system worked when it came to paying taxes, or rather what they didn't pay? if everyone else knew how come the EU missed it?

Greece never covered up its money problems because it had money problems for years before the EU came along, in the least in the way of next to no one paid tax, and the Greek government knew this, thats why they gave them an alternative, which the Greeks ignored, and still the government did nothing.

The EU bailed them out, I think a couple of times, and accept it or not with our money as well as all the others in the EU.

I have to admit the EU could be a good thing, but never in the way it's been working over the past years, but again you have to get the people running these systems to admit something is badly wrong, and this is where the biggest problem is, to them nothing is wrong.

Seems odd to be trying to drag Greece into the argument.  In case you do not know or understand an American Investment Bank did an off-market, cross currency swap that added a billion dollars to the Greek balance sheet via an off balance sheet transaction.  The Maastricht rules can be circumvented quite legally through swaps. The transaction was domiciled out of London.  So rather than asking what the EU regulators were doing you should ask what the UK regulators were doing.

This is of course just a way to confuse the issue.  The path that the UK is on via the Conservative Government is one of internal destruction for no apparent reason other than sound bites for politicians with personal motives who behave dishonourably.

It is so typical of the UK to throw their toys out of the pram when they do not get their own way and blame the EU (for example) because they will not fix the Irish Backstop for the Leavers.

Agreed Perrypower that Banking regulators and all rules that ultimately leave citizens as scapegoats in purposeful complex ploys needs to be reviewed at ALL levels. Hence my observation with regard to Banks influence and power over Governments. Interesting how they choose to “hug” Governments close, so to speak. But an old article makes the point how Goldman Sachs conquered Europe in that process.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/what-price-the-new-democracy-goldman-sachs-conquers-europe-6264091.html

No doubt all eyes should now be focused on who replaces Mark Carney as Governor of the Bank of England.

Re “ fix the Irish backstop for the leavers”?

I thought this was supposed to be about how going forward you conduct trade across borders with a friendly country without compromising that country’s precious union?

No doubt sadly this peace agreement was a political tool that has been “used” as a negotiating ploy. 

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1019/1005373-backstop-tony-connelly/

Whatever happened to the willingness to find mutually beneficial deals and the statement “

• look forward to working together with the next UK Prime Minister
• want to avoid a disorderly Brexit and establish as close a future relationship as possible with the UK”?

UK to EU,

Stop picking on me...

So the next UK Prime Minister is going to leave the EU on October 31st "Do or die". Methinks it may well be the latter. Clearly, parliament intends to prevent it. That's usually the end result for Kamikarsee politicians. What a state the UK has ended up in. Europe was always destined to destroy the Tory party. It's on course to arrive very soon at that destination. Johnson seems not to realise that parliament is sovereign not the PM who is only head of the executive.

The prediction is Johnson will join forces with Farage at the GE forced by parliament to gain a majority. If the voters tolerate that then they will only have themselves to blame for the consequences.

it's no longer the tory and unionist party...it's the tory and brexit at any cost party. Infiltrated by UKIP we've got a bunch extremeist nut jobs running (or not running) the country.

At least it will finish them brexit or not....and don't they deserve it !

at least Scotland's got an escape hatch....and to the wee English right wing bams on the crashing Lancaster bomber...we told you but you wouldn't listen...we're taking our oil, water and wind power with us..we'll leave you to enjoy all these fat, bald guys on Question Time screaming about taking our own country back and border controls......laughing stock of Europe...what have you done to the UK !

Seems odd to be trying to drag Greece into the argument.  In case you do not know or understand an American Investment Bank did an off-market, cross currency swap that added a billion dollars to the Greek balance sheet via an off balance sheet transaction.

Yes, I did know that, from what I can remember wasn't it Goldman Sachs way back, and they did that only because they owed them, and the world, so many billions they couldn't have Greece go bust and default, and knowing the Americans this will be a debt that has to be paid back somehow.

Greece has been dragged into the EU argument as a generalisation if only to show how corrupt the EU gang is when they want to cover up their faults. Could be thats one reason the UK wants out.

”Europe was always destined to destroy the Tory party.”

Whether you agree with their politics or not, that is an awful suggestion to make when the EU was supposed to respect National Governments democracies, democracy by virtue of the fact that their citizens voted them into power and have the right to either retain them in power or not through their own national democratic election processes.

To suggest that the EU is intent on undermining such a democratic process in such an underhand and manipulative manner, sadly only further alienates those who value their democratic rights, their right to control outside influences that have the potential to undermine cohesion, undermine their union, undermine their infrastructures and systems, undermine peace processes that have taken years to nurture and develop.

“Extremist nut jobs”,   “Fat bald guys”....??

Aggressive and offensive rhetoric plays no part in good intellectual debate nor does it help in developing cohesion and striving for mutually beneficial solutions. 

Ads You got hold of the wrong end of the stick. The EU are are blamless for the situation. The UK voted to leave without any consideration of how it could be achieved.  

It's the internal dissention within the Tory party that is destoying them. It's a form of fratricide. The UK finds itself in this current situation entirely because of internal quabbles between Tory supporters. Farage and Co are simply disaffected Tories.

What is sad is they managed to convince many natural labour voters to support leave in the referendum for their own  diverse reasons. I suspect many now regret that choice. However the damage is done it won't be resolved until the people have another vote either GE or second referendum.

posting screeds of crap copied and pasted is no part of the debate. 

and erroneous conclusions derived from such crap is laughable

Still struggling to understand half of what's being said here (no prizes for guessing which half!) I want to, I really do. I'm not sure how Greece got dragged into it either, but for what it's worth....I'm not entirely sure how the EU gets the blame for Greece's intransigence and failure to face the uncomfortable realities of paying state pensions to 52 year olds being unsustainable; on the contrary, it seems to me that the EU has tried it's best to help Greece sort out the mess it caused itself. But maybe I've got it all wrong. Either way, I'm also a little puzzled at ads'continued insistence that EU citizens have been used as scapegoats; it seems to me that you (ads) are planting the blame for just about every problem in all 28 member states firmly at the door in Brussels, so it looks like you want the EU to be the scapegoat. On a personal level, I'd be interested to know if I should be blaming the EU for my investment in Woodford's fund being frozen, and if it's due to the EU's instrangient lack of understanding of uncomfortable truths etc. etc. etc.....maybe this is the benefit of leaving I've (so far unsuccessfully) tried to elicit: once we're out, we'll be able to set up our own financial regulator which will protect innocent scapegoats like me and prevent something like this ever happening again?

Also still trying to work out the comment about the UK's ability to place inclusion and integration high on its list of priorities while still having the right to protect itself from factors outside of its control....I think there's a complete contradiction there somewhere, but TBH, I struggle to make any more sense of most of what I read here than I did of BoJo's bizarre interview with LK last night - for I am a bear of very little brain, and big words bother me (like "exculpate", which I'm sure all of BoJo's Express reading fan base know the meaning of, but which sent me rushing to the pages of the Urban Dictionary to see if I'm just out of touch and he was actually taking to the average Joe in the street)

For now, I think I'll just content myself with this: Micky: "Europe was always destined to destroy the Tory party". Reply: "To suggest that the EU is intent on undermining....." Absolute GOLD!!!!! What a spectacular misunderstanding! I must strongly exculpate Micky on this matter.....

P.S. who copied and pasted what from where, please? Any evidence?

Mickeyfinn,

You appear to pay scant regard to UK citizens reasons for their choices to leave the EU and the specifics relating to EU decision making. 

So many live debates from a wide variety of regions across the UK have demonstrated why so many have become disillusioned with the status quo.....they had every opportunity to comprehend the EU’s role in all of this and also comprehend the issues that related to UK decision making. So to imply that they were ignorant or have been wrongly influenced in this regard is wrong. They made up their own minds and voted accordingly in the recent EU elections.

When you look to the changes that have taken place since the change in treaty arrangements ....

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/22/european-parliament-relations-with-the-national-parliaments

Rationale for cooperation

The very process of European integration involves transferring responsibilities hitherto exercised by national governments to joint institutions with decision-making powers, thus diminishing the role of the national parliaments(NPs) as legislators, budgetary authorities and bodies responsible for scrutinising the executive. While several of the responsibilities transferred from national to EU level initially rested with the Council, the European Parliament (EP) has progressively acquired a full parliamentary role.

 it soon becomes apparent that the EU specified removing power from National Governments, which whether by intent or not has undermined citizens democratic rights and sadly had the complete opposite of their intention to “bring Europe closer to its citizens” 

They lost citizens faith in their accountability, their ability to listen and respond to major concerns, their ability to manage and develop strategies to improve growth, their ability to develop cohesion and limit division, their ability to adequately respond to Banking abuse that has been all too prevalent in Spain, mortgages, Bank Guarantees, illegal builds, etc (let alone the UK),  by failing to ensure that compliance with regulatory structures and existing laws intended to protect were adhered to and enforced ......the list goes on and on. 

If there is any sadness in this scenario, it’s that the Commission have failed to restore faith in their executive, failed to acknowledge their mistakes and seek well overdue reform, and in that process they have lost the support of all too many.

The tragedy is, it didn’t have to be this way.

Let’s hope that the new executive following the Commission elections later in the year take heed of the growing disillusionment frequently expressed in  broadcasted live EU Parliamentary sessions, for all to see, and learn from the mistakes going forward. When you listen to the frustrations and anger expressed in EU Parliamentary sessions you see that this is no concoction, and not just UK calling for reform....

But in the meantime, time will tell if the EU are sincere in their stated intent to “look forward to working together with the next UK Prime Minister” and ”want to avoid a disorderly Brexit and establish as close a future relationship as possible with the UK”.

We can only live in hope.

Wow talk about stretching half truths and interpretations that have no basis in facts.  

Ask Micky how Greece got dragged into it, he knows, he dragged it in.

Sad that when faced with live UK debates and live EU parliamentary sessions, live EU Parliament results ( emphasis on live) and intellectual analyses that don’t support their own opinions, how some refuse to believe uncomfortable truths, preferring to suggest falsehoods.

Not much you can do about that other than allow people the right to reach their own conclusions. It is a democracy after all... ;)

Having said all of that it is good to debate with open minds with a view to resolving problems at the end of the day, to reflect on differences of interpretations without offensive rhetoric thrown into the mix, or intention to imply bad intent.

Still sad that as citizens we can’t find common ground to make those who hold immense power (whether political or financial), accountable when major problems impact, problems that affect us all in one way or another.

What’s the saying “ divide and rule” ?

I've mentioned previously an old aquaintance who had a bar (over 10 years ago now I think) in Spain which failed because the hotel in the same road that supplied all his customers became an all-inclusive. He now lives back in the UK on benefits. When asked (not by me) on Fakebook why he voted to leave, he cited all the live debates which helped him come to the conclusion that he had become a scapegoat for the EU.....he said he had every opportunity to comprehend the EU’s role in his shitty life. He said he had lost faith in the EU's accountability, their ability to listen and respond to his concerns, their ability to manage and develop strategies to boost his profits, their ability to develop cohesion and limit division, their ability to adequately respond to Banking abuse in Spain, mortgages (although he never had one), Bank Guarantees, illegal builds, etc., by failing to ensure that compliance with regulatory structures and existing laws intended to protect bar owners were adhered to and enforced.......

Actually, he just said: "It was all those bloody regulations in the bar in Spain", which makes no sense whatsoever, but I'm quite sure that he's convinced it's a well reasoned argument. He then re-posted the latest viral bigotted garbage about immigrants that was doing the rounds that day. 

I've just watched David Olusoga's excellent BBC documentary about the Windrush scandal. Sad how history repeats itself. No doubt 50 years from now there'll be plenty of documentaries that will make people who are too young to remember the Brexit scandal feel as ashamed as I did tonight.