Home demolished in Vera

Well, I don't know where to start.  First and foremost it's absolutely disgusting and my heart goes out to these people, I  feel gutted for them.

As for being surprised, of course we are when we see it happening for real and not just reading a five liner in a local paper.  Especially when the victims appear totally innocent. 

"DUE DILIGENCE", is this not what most of pay through the nose for when we buy a property and employ a legal representative.  As they say, you don't get a guard dog then teach it to bark.   You never know if you've picked the right person until the job is done and sometimes years later when you discover that they did a bad job. 

The probable reason the Junta went through with the demolition was to be seen to be doing the right thing, picking up browny points and to send a message to rogue developers, lawyers and agents, but at the expense of the innocent, with total disregard for basic human rights.  It has also sent shockwaves through the rest of the Spanish property market as this thread will prove.

I think a plan of action is required .  Things I would like to suggest are: -

• Head up a fund used for various tasks, even small 1-5 euro donations would help
• Perhaps a seperate web site/page with a Paypal Account for donations
• Find people like the Priors to head up a task force or committee.
• Find 'Good' lawyers and legal representative willing to take up the challenge
• Find 'Good' MEPs willing to take up the challenge.
• Purchase Air time on TV such as Living in Spain to get the message further.
• Get with Spanish people, because as we know,  most are great people and one of the reasons why we chose Spain.
• Getting the Spanish on-side would strengthen anything we do.
• Start to name people and places, this would highlight problem areas and bad practices.
• etc... etc...

The main objective would be to get the Spanish Law changed to become clear and transparrent to protect innocent parties when it comes to purchasing property in Spain and to force local Town Halls to clean up their own act.  I know it's already started happening in some places. Doing this would give the Spanish economy the biggest boost it could ever wish for. 

We could also encourage Spanish authorities to advertise what they are doing for the good of the property market and at the same time showing the good side.  So it doesn't all have to be negative if we go about it the right way.

Just my penny's worth.

Steve.

Surely what it needs is for a friendly Spanish Lawer ,who will in the future profit from conveyancing, help at the lowest legal costs in prparing a case to claim damages from the Vera Town Hall/Mayor.

THe same Lawer or perhaps another one could look into the possibilites of taking the Junta to the European Court.

Rapp

Hi All,

I have just read Justin's article on this it is a terrible situation for anyone to be in.We are in the process of buying & obviously a good solicitor is essential.

My question is to safe guard yourself.What piece of paper ,permit, what ever you call it ,do you need to see from the Junta de Andalucia to the town hall to know permission to build on land is in place?

Thanks Diane.

Hi Justine

I think it would help greatly if we knew exactly what documents are required from the Junta de Andalucia to prove a development is legal.  We are about to complete and I want to ask our solicitor the question before we do so.  If it is not possible to confirm developements are legal via this route then the property market will certainly go into tail spin.

It is an unusual situation for Brits to understand because in the UK the District Council has planning powers and we do not need to refer to the County council except on raod matters.

And herein is part of theproblem. Some properties HAVE all their documentation, but then get revoked as the building is contrary to the last offigial town hall planning map as agreed by the Junts (PGOU). In some cases, the illegal build is ok as it WOULD have been on a new plan if approved, so its a very grey floating area

Add to this most banks until now have also lent money on the basis of the famous Spanish shulder shrug AND in the old days things were fine and approved, then you can see the mess.

The only way to be very sure is to gather all documentation and then go to the town hall to ensure legality. If there is a slight doubt then dont buy!

Dont think many lawyers like doing this though!!

Might this be an issue which could be taken to the Court of Human Rights in The Hague?  Surely, if someone has obtained permission from a Town Hall, they should be allowed full compensation for this, OK, so the Town Hall are corrupt but how are we to know this in advance?  What needs to happen is to gather a group of people together to mount some collective action to take this matter to the Court, indict the Mayor and demand full restitution in some form or another. 

The JDA are simpy taking corruption to another level, read New Labour, read Tony Blair, read Alistair Campbell!  What do they care about people?  Presumably, this will mainly happen to ex-pats?  They have opened a can of worms which must end in their own removal from power because if they remove the Brits they remove the bread and butter of much of the coast, still, when did Socialists ever have any vision?

Ian Turner

Justin,

Hi, you know I am in Manilva and we have met at Becky's etc. How can one check that they have a property that is not an illegal build?

It might help to publish a this is what you do to check that all is well guide.

I have an Escitura with stamped documents from the notary and Registro de Propiadad etc, water, electricity contracts, I get IBI bills, but how do I know my property is legal???

"Sir,
You are no doubt aware of the coverage in national papers and on TV of injustices currently being perpetrated by the authorities in Spain against British property owners on the costas.

It ranges from the notorious “land grab” perpetrated by the Valencian Government and others, to outright fraud by more local mayors and lawyers resulting in the demolition of homes which were certified as being legal by the local authorities, but after years of habitation, declared illegal by regional bodies.

 I cannot describe the horror with which this is viewed by other residents.  Since the Spanish authorities seem to ignore all diktats by the EU and change the rules with complete abandon to the disadvantage of local ex-pat communities, we ask ourselves how long it will be before they come up with some other fabricated “law” that will deprive yet more of us of our legal rights. 

 We too are EU citizens and expect the EU to stand up for us.  We have the right for our views and needs to be represented to the European Parliament.  We expect our representatives to take steps to ensure that this very obvious type of fraud is outlawed and that suitable action be taken to penalise the Spanish Government for denying residents their human rights to enjoy their own legally owned property.

 I understand that there is shortly to be a vote relating to issues of Spanish land scams by the EU.  Will you please ensure that our views on this matter are fully represented?

 M.G.Brill"

It may not be brilliant, but I feel that it goes a little of the way towards registering our protest and I intend sending many more and although will clearly bring no immediate action, given enough protest awareness will be raised.  May I suggest that we all send our own versions to as many MP's and MEP's as we can? 

I also intend writing to as many newspapers as I can, but we need a concerted effort before anything will happen.  Does anyone know the e-mail address of our Spanish MEP's.  I have looked, but had problems getting clear answers, probably like the Spanish officials, they are more interested in the gravy train than peoples lives.

There seem to be two different laws in force here.

Some rogue developer illegally built a row of houses in front of my dad's, basically blocking his view of the sea. These plots are officially allowed for building two-storey houses but these houses have three storeys. He and other neighbours took the developer to court and although the judge conceded that the construction was illegal he didn't see any reason to order the construction to be stopped. The developer paid a small fine and my dad was left with a much larger legal bill. It was one of the factors that led to the breakdown of my Mum's health and ultimately her passing away.

I would recommend this couple to post a web site with an ability to take donations, people are very angry about this.  All who have property on the south coast (and for that matter anywhere else in Spain) would potentially donate to help to compensate them, any funds left over to go into a fighting fund to pay lawyers and investigators to get this type of thing stopped.

Where are the details covered fully and honestly?  I would like to read the whole chain of events, are the authorities going to compensate them?

I tell you what one and all !

This is scary stuff !

After reading this nightmare these poor people have had to endure!

Even though we absolutely and Unequivocally "LOVE" our potential villa that we have put a 16,500 pounds deposit on and is to be finished in 18 months and we are to retire out there....

We are NOW seriously considering just walking away and be done with this country that has "NO" sense of fair play!

We are really worried about putting (potentially, no matter how small) ourselves at their (the government etc) MERCY!

I am not even sure how any bit of legalese papers can placate us? How our, as we understand it at present, good lawyer can put our worries to bed? 5 years down the road we may find that our "due diligence" may not have been that good, for one reason or another. Can you feel my lack of trust here?

THIS IS DEFINATELY A DIFFERENT BALL GAME!! (If we are thinking like this, just imagine what all the new buyers in future will be thinking i.e. "don't touch Spain with a barge pole it "MAY" lead to your demise"

This "own goal" may have done irrevocable damage to the Spanish dream, in my eye's anyway. Or are they bothered MMmmm?

I want to go out there worry free (as much as possible) not looking over my shoulder all the time?

OH!!! DEAR!!! my thought are for those poor people too! what a nightmare?

I think we need a liitle levity here  before things get too clouded,with people like Tanboy prepared to lose £16,500.

I am going to play devils advocate to bring these tragic circumstances into perspective.

To state the country has no sense of fair play is a generalisation that cannot be placed on the whole country.

I would interested to see all the members of this site post as such;

purchased;no legal problems  or

purchased;illegal build with demolition order.

This will probably give everyone a rough guide to the percentages we are discussing here.

Our preconceptions can be a little blinding.

For example,i could say that there is no way i would buy a house in the UK because they all tend to flood 3 times a year,nobody will now insure them and they must have all been built illegally on or below the flood plain!!!!!!, the government has shown no help to these residents etc..etc.... this must be right because it was on "Sky news" this week!!!!!!!

Yes these situation need to be out in the open and the more publicity they get the better.

What i am trying to say is that you must get things into perspective..............

Georgia

What is the Junta supposed to do? Houses are being built without their permission on land that they are obliged to protect for the community as a whole. I do not know the details of the case, but it would appear to be very similar to those in Marbella where the town Hall has granted permission for a development that is outwith the general plan that has to be approved by the Junta de Andalucia as the overall planning authority. It is because nothing has happened  in cases like this that flaunt the law over a number of years that people have assumed that they can get away with it. Eventually though, the legal wheels grind on and things have come to the stage where action must be taken. It could just as easily have been a Spanish owned house as a number of them have already been demolished. It is a personal disaster for the Priors, but they will have legal remedy against their advisers who should have  known that the development was illegal.

All should remember that the estate agent is a 'selling' agent. His client and duty of care is to the seller not to the buyer. However, he cannot act illegally, but he has a lesser duty of care to the buyer in checking out fully whether the development has all the permissions. The only safe way is to employ a lawyer and/or a buying agent with a sense of professional conscience, who will investigate as if they themselves were going to be buying the property. If the Priors had been told that there was some doubt over the permission, but went ahead in any case, the responsibility must lie with them themselves. If they had employed advisors and these advisers had not done so, then they are the responsible ones.

The demolition is not a problem of the system, it is a problem of those who have tried to ignore the system, which is there to protect us all. It is a sign of a mature society that has to protect itself against 'rogue' individuals.

Here is the link to the Article that i talk about: -

http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/bringing-down-the-house.aspx

The Priors alledgedly had all there permits and licences in place but still lost their house...

This is the part that is of concern!

I fully understand that people who haven't got permission and have flown in the face of the authority deserve what they get.

But these people it would seem did everything right as far as I can see?

No! Georgia, I wouldn't buy a house in england that was on a flood plain ... this is a little different these are not the elements and out of human control. But something that could if let become more sinister as time goes on..

Like I said there is nothing anybody can probably say now. I have been in touch with our lawyers and am expecting an answer shortly but it will have to be a good one, and not just a "no it can't happen here or to us" I will want to see something pretty darn tangible to persuade me now.

I say to the "surveyor" these little old people have paid the price and have been victims twice. they should give them their money back as well i dare say the i.v.a. they paid.

It was okay with the council who gave them their permits and licences when they were built ...Now someone higher up has changed their mind. Not a good game to get involved with!

Anyway thanks guy's