Legal Informtion

Hi facere
 I completely agree with what you say however I am curious as to how and when you got your money back . I also think that Herrada was set up in a way to protect SJ and believe SJ tried to go into voluntary admin without Herrada being brought in .It was the judge who decided they must also go into the process if this is the case it would explain about  the account of 7mil that is apparently held  in Herradas name . It was reported that the president of SJ was extremely annoyed that Herrada were `dragged in ,one can only presume this was a somewhat illegal attempt at protecting money from the process  and who knows where this money came from and how it was moved around before concurso .
Thankfully the judge was not stupid and saw things for what they are. In my opinion SJ  are criminally liable for all of this and there will be prosecutions probabally as soon as after the general meeting in August after the accounts are presented and the true extent of SJ's financial liability is known it will become clear things are far from legal. 
As for being realistic my eyes are wide open and I know SJ well. I have been trying to get my money back for years. I am amazed that you actually managed it.Perhaps it depends on the amount mine is quite large but I would be interested to know  how you got yours back .
. As for the IWMH gang I feel sorry for them but have been trying to make them see the truth about SJ  for so long I don't have the energy  anymore that is why I got so mad about the meetings they had with SJ once again in this saga SJ  feeding folk bull  and giving them false hope . No they are not realistic but it is hard for honest people to see the bad in others . I feel sorry for them and all of us and no unfortunately they will not get their houses. 
As I have said many times before seeing the people responsible go to jail will not help us or make me feel any better . I  think that is something that would only please those who are out of this and have their money back.It will make no difference to me unless I decided to go for  a legal claim under criminal liability law which is unlikely    cheers JA

It does seem that there are at least three of us on the same wavelength here, much to the disgust of others no doubt.
The more you read in the media (non-tabloid), the more discussions with bodies and companies in Spain, the more "not so good" is revealed and dating back 12-18 months or more.
There were some postings on here at the time, but I recall they were condemned as being rubbish.

• The cost of materials for construction have been contracted and fixed for 3 years with suppliers.

• The foundations for a large number of properties are already constructed and the golf course has been contoured. 

• SADM is a legal development, supported by the Town Hall and with 1600 purchasers plus 80 more on a waiting list.

• 45% of the purchasers are Spanish and the development only requires 50% of the purchasers to be viable.

• The cost of completing phase 1 of SADM including 25 commercial units, 18 hole golf course plus club house with pro shop and bar is 30 million Euros, with projected income from current purchasers approximately 210 million euros.

• Continuation to purchase contracts with have new completion dates and bank guarantees ( some thing a lot of us do not have at the moment)

Tonymal 
You really must remember that you are posting information given in the most part from SJ  who have shown over the years  can not to be trusted to tell the truth . Many of us put no credence  what so ever on what they have to say on any matter what so ever .So please don't insult our intelligence in asking us to believe the regurgitated SJ nonsense  that you  then post as fact .
Thank you and sorry to disagree but I  and many others do .

ps if financing was going to be possible they would have it by now. They have had months now to arrange this and had been trying for months before applying for admin its not going to happen.


This message was last edited by julie anne on 7/22/2008.

From what date was the cost of materials for construction been fixed for 3 years. Any agreement also allows for increase due to inflation. Standard construction procedure.
Does this include fixtures, final finishes, such as tiles, decoration, etc., I am told no.
Some foundations may have been cast, but that equates for just 20% of construction cost, excluding roads, drainage, sewers, services, etc.
The golf course has been contoured, maybe, but what is that worth?  
SADM is a legal development, so far. What about Licences for construction above ground. Have all fees now been paid?
Plus 80 more on a waiting list. If you truly believ thate, you are laying down yourselves in their hands for the slaughter. 80 on a waiting list and possibly 800 hoping to break away.
45% of the purchasers are Spanish and the development only requires 50% of the purchasers to be viable. So what has the 45% to do with it. The 50%, what do you believe it is 50% of?
The cost of completing phase 1 of SADM including 25 commercial units, 18 hole golf course plus club house with pro shop and bar is 30 million Euros, with projected income from current purchasers approximately 210 million euros. 
Which will remain a liability unless occupied. So you think they will let or sell 25 commercial units to serve just 1600 premises?
And the cost of construction for 1600 houses is?
Continuation to purchase contracts with have new completion dates and bank guarantees ( some thing a lot of us do not have at the moment). And some do and they are worth nothing. Don't you realise what has and is going on?
I therefore think that the probability of the refinancing of SADM is good and that it will be built within the time frame stated in the report as the return is 7 million for 1 million Euros. I agree 100% as @ a 700% yield, any funder would take it on. Wonder why they didn't and Administratiors were called in. Hope you asked that question at your meetings?
Could be another campaign. Support SADM (squander and die miserable)
The price of completed properties has dropeed. The construction costs for new properties has increased 20%+.
As you are confident that contracts we have stand in law and HdT will still make a significant profit, I am surprised you have not been head-hunted as CEO.
In fact, feel frre to contact me if you can show returns of 700% of any development and I am confident it would be of interest to us.
I most definitely want my House as I have little chance of getting my money back. Why, when they can make 700% from yours, they will be glad to buy it back from you.
It may have been easier for you to appreciate, if you were from a business background.

This message was last edited by FriendinNeed on 7/22/2008.

This message was last edited by FriendinNeed on 7/22/2008.

This message was last edited by FriendinNeed on 7/22/2008.

Hi Fin,
You as witty and helpfull as usual,many thanks for your input. I like the ALM copy and comment ploy. I suggest you go onto the SARC website and download the document about Spanish law. We shall all find out in October what is going to happen regarding SADM and lets be honest if people do not get thier property they have little chance of getting their money back.

As for the credit cruch, it is all about perception and confidence but I am sure that you know that. If all of the purchasers at SADM stand together and say we want to buy, do you really think that the banks, who by the way need to make some money, will not finance the project?   As for buisness acumen, i have discussed this issue and info with our European Finance Director and other people in the CIty of London.

I could make clever remarks but to be quite honest I have no interest in trading point scoring comments with you.

If i did not know better I might have thought that you did not want SADM to go ahead.


Wishing all purchasers the best
Tony R17 18 

You may class my comments as as witty and helpfull, but have you evidence to dispute?
The figures are there, you offer some, I give others, perhaps there is a mid-way, but at 700% yield, sorry no.
Fixed material prices for 3 years. Contract procedure, irrespective of type of business, be it construction, motor, steel, fuel, energy, always have a clause for inflation and raw material increases for such durations.
Why would I need to download details from your website on Spanish law, when we have our own lawyer for dealings in Spain.
Why do you think I need to read them anyway. Do you think my comments are different and not in line with the Spanish laws?You will find out in the weeks to come, yes I agree with that. Just hope it will not ruin too many financially.
The credit cruch is about perception and confidence. What an absolute joke that is. I suppose energy, debt, inflation has nothing to do with it. 
If your European Finance Director, disputes my claims, evidence and comparables, I would welcome his comments as I am always prepared to learn. It does help business progress.
If you do want to name drom regarding EFDs and City people. A mainboard director of a major bank, in a recent meeting, told that they would not consider mortgages on the properties, let alone funding the development.
No points to score, but if you think I could learn from your comments, clever or not, please let me have them.
If you don't want it to look like point scoring, please PM them to me. You do not appreciate, I do want to learn from others, be it good or bad. Even the bad are remembered and can prevent disasters in the future.
I would sincerely love SADM to go ahead, but the head must rule.
You do appear to consider that I am against the development, but believe me I am not, I just post what I know, what I am told (after checking if correct) and what is available in records.
If people do not wish me to post this information, no problem, just let me know.

Tonymal

You really must remember that you are posting information given in the most part from SJ  who have shown over the years 
can not to be trusted to tell the truth . Many of us put no credence  what so ever on what they have to say on any matter what so ever .So please don't insult our intelligence in asking us to believe the regurgitated SJ nonsense  that you  then post as fact .
Thank you and sorry to disagree but I  and many others do .

ps if financing was going to be possible they would have it by now. They have had months now to arrange this and had been trying for months before applying for admin its not going to happen.


Tonymal
 I have posted this`again as you never seem to clarify do you agree all the info in your report comes from SJ therefor is more than likely not true as is most of the information they  give  ? 
Can you give any information stated by the administrators or did they infact  say nothing as I have previously stated  ?
Were you told anything the rest of us could not have asked SJ by phone and got the same old answers ?


This message was last edited by julie anne on 7/22/2008.

Hi all

If we re-wind a few weeks and look at the postings then, we find, well in my case anyway, some level of consistency saying that if the administration gives the agreement to go ahead, it will be on a trading basis.  That means build on for current purchasers and refund the out of date deposits in the trading account of the business.

There is no.....i want a  house or i want a refund....thats what ive been saying all these weeks!!!!! The likelyhood of the current builder carrying on is slim, but not impossible.  The likelyhood of sites being bought out or carried on in a management package.....is less slim...but not to a timescale.  The winding up of SJ and HdT, if this is found to be dishonest, the english law would apply liability to the directors, the holding company is wealthy i understand??...chance of a good dividend then

Lets get it clear though, we have to do whats best for ourselves not for the builder, thats for sure, pressure the solicitors like mad when the admin has delivered their ruling.

FIN and Tony.....i bow to your contacts and resources, please remember that the best financial brains never seem to see trains coming and always close ranks and panic.  They also never see the light at the end of tunnels in recessions...its always a surprise to them when things happen.  They leave important decisions to people like Nick Leeson.

When a building recession is here the manufacturers can sell materials cheaper for years to keep a market share or production going so a 3 year price structure isnt impossible...ive seen similar in the past.

Also.............The creditors being tradesmen and suppliers will not sell their goods to anyone in this climate..it makes sense to keep the sites awake and even barely alive, with an agreement in place to trade on and pay off existing debts at the same time, good relations can continue.

The biggy is finance.  The financiers being the people who never see anything coming etc., are strange animals....any return will be good...700% is rubbish and you know it.  If they can trade on and turn over a 20% profit over the next 24 months, it will be more and more attractive as the banks gaet more money to lend and less places to lend it to.

Phew...im resting my fingers now.

Brian

briando, you say that in a recession, manufacturers can sell materials cheaper for years. That is assuming that (a) They survive (b) the cost of raw materials and inflation has not increase (c) their banks are kind to them.
There is a flaw in this comment as you refer to manufacturers. Do you believe that even though the build date on some properties are past, the manufacturers (blocks, bricks, window frames, tiles, doors, etc.) have already made the goods?
Ordered they may have been, but manufactured in advance they will not have beem, therefore, what goods would they be able to sell off cheap. It is not like building an extension on your home when you go down to a mechant and he has most in stock.
Keeping a 3 year price structure is not possible and you may have seen similar in the past, but not is such a troubled market, a financial nightmare and such increases in raw materials.

The creditors will include tradesmen and suppliers, but the amount of works carried out on SADM is minimal, which you can see from the photo gallery if you are not familiar with the site, but massive land, legal and other professional fees, together with banks will be the serious creditors on this development, with banks being number 1.
None of these will have left over goods to sell on cheap.

We are seeing similar in UK, where a developer goes broke and only this week I learn of a developer going bust and a new company which was established to take over, did so. A supplier who I was talking with informs me that yes, they would consider supplying, but the new terms were a 40% increase in price and a 50% deposit. So, who will be paying for the 40% increase in the materials and the interest on the loan to cover the deposit up front?

Labour element could be cheaper, as in UK, tradesmaen on a self employed basis have experienced big drops in rates, as developers realise that work for them is getting less and less, so it is a case of take it or leave it.

Hi FIN

The post being called reality check, i am sticking to reality rather than projection and conjecture.

I am saying that manufacturers of raw material.....clay tiles, clay brick, aggregates and portland cement....materials most used, will accept less profit margin and cut back on labour cost.  Most of the infrastructure, ie machinery, kilns, etc is bought and paid for.  I have seen survival at many times...big companies can fold and even make money out of the process....traditional companies survive.....i know.

The logistics are that clay belts and portland is usually available as local(ish) sources, as is labour and transport.

There is no need to discuss things like that as a world wide issue, because its not.  The people who worked on the sites have to put food on the table, simple as that.  The migrant work force...migrates.

Its a good thing that the construction trade is still a traditional trade with things happening pretty much the way they did hundreds of years ago......the whole thing can go back to basics and trim its cloth.

The amount owed and who gets paid first will be after the administrators have made judgements, dont forget that bank guarantees are partnerships with banks.....there is a lot more to come from those, rather than just say....oh lets give it all to the banks, they deserve it on legal grounds.....

I understand your points FIN.....but like most of us...you dont know it all my friend......in......er......need?

lol.....Brian

I don't remember ever saying I knew anything, let alone all, just give an opinion based on evidence and comparables.

You claim that the manufacturers will accept less profit margin and cut back on labour cost, are we to assume that such processes do not require energy for the plants to operate and that fuel and energy increase will not affect them.
Sorry, I would rather listen to the FD of the second largest manufacturer in its field in Spain, who controls the company budget, that hearsay.

Regarding the infrastructure and plant and your comment that all is paid for, I can only repeat the above, and unless you can prove different, will not change my mind.

The logistics may be so, but again you mention transport. Are you aware of what it is costing hauliers?
I can quote and have evidence, of one medium size haulier, with an increase in fuel costs of 250K per month since last year.
That is a fact, so sorry, I cannot have my mind changed on that.
Who will pay for these increase in costs. Road transport contracts are the same as airlines, there is a clause in contracts for surcharges to allow for increase fuel costs.

I am pleased that you think that the worldwide issues will not affect the people who worked on the sites, but I believe I am more realistic.

The construction industry is nowhere near the same as it was a hundred years ago. Not in the labour and skills, method of material manufaturing and in most instances, the materials used.
Perhaps you could specify where a hundred years ago,  houses were constructed from reinforced concret foundations and slabs, with RI conc., stanchions, brick infill panels and aluminium windows. Where commercial units were from steel portals?
Not even the funding for building is the same, which is why there is now such financial disaster.
Not many people a hundred years ago had 125 year mortgages.
Not much call either for electricians 100 years ago.

I agre that it is the Administrators decision that will be acted upont regarding creditors priority.

The bank guarantees............well yes, time will tell. Just hope that the specific guarantee has the deposit for the property in their account.

If you are sticking with reality, why is it you feel that just enrgy costs alone won't have implications on developments in Spain.

Someone has to pay for it.

What about the unfinished Urb on temporary supplies, cut off as the developer could not afford the fuel for the generators?

"my friend......in......er......need", no problem, I will sign off as EnemyinNeed for those who don't want to face reality, if that makes readers happy?
Better still, perhaps I should not post?

Hi All ,
I have pondered ( and that is not easy ) on the postings of Briando and Fin.....................hhhhhmmm...
Well in all of our contracts the cost of extras is fixed, the cost of the build is fixed..........and big surprise I had a pool with mine and when SJ/HDT agreed the price with the supplier/contractor, I was given a reduction..........hhhhm I gues they must have fixed the price in a contract.....   Kind of makes sense that when you undertake a large buisness venture you fix your costs so that you are not caught out by varriables.....

As for manafacturing and transport costs........well in the Uk manafactures and land transport is baring the brunt of any increase to keep sales........and lets not forget the price of oil is now coming down......so.........

Well it makes me think, and OK I am no expert but.....fixed costs etc    will it be built.....well it looks quite probable and as for all of the "reasons"  against it happening............hhhhhhhhhhhmmmm when you really think about it, as sensational and eye catching as they are, they do not stand up.....

So lets all start shouting very loudly finance SADM and get the build going, we do not want to loose our money we want our houses. Oh and for those who will start poo pooing all of this........are you a SADM purchasers or are you  just playing with those of us that are?

All the best all i am going to enjoy summer whilst it is here in the UK.

Tony R17 18

SJ  are stashed with cash, the development will go ahead to completion and everyone will get 25% discount for the worry it has caused.

That is as stupid as the statement that hauliers in UK are baring the brunt of the fuel increase.
Are you not aware, do you not listen to statements, not opinions. There are contingencies in haulage contracts to allow for increase in fuel costs.
I am quoting from evidence of an operator, not saying it is big or small, but operates 700 tractor units in UK.

In purchaser contracts,  the cost of extras are fixed and the cost of the build was fixed.
Wasn't the completion date also fixed, with just a 3-6 month tolerance.
This alone proves you "cherry pick" from documents, the parts you wish to believe.
Hands up, how many have had their contracts honoured and are now living at SADM, without telling us.
Regarding financing of SADM. My offer is on the table, if you can still guarantee a 700% return.

This message was last edited by FriendinNeed on 7/23/2008.

Hi All,
          I wasn't going to post tonight but I think we all need to think clearly much of what everyone has said from  FIN, Briando and Tonymal all have valid points in their arguments. That said I feel that there are just 2 ways this situation can go

1         The company fails to get refinance and goes into liquidation what does that mean for us ? those with BGs might be OK and get their money back but for the majority without BGs they are at least 4th in line for pay out that to me means I say good bye to my dream , and my money.

2        The other way is that they get refinanced not everyones first choise but if you consider that for a moment what do we get The administrators still on board , BGs for all, A property that can be realised for money and possibly a profit in not too distant future 3-4 years maybe property is (usually a long haul venture not usually short term)

so i actually hope that even in this climate they get the funds needed to continue

we now have to await developements of the ley concursal in sept /october and hope for the better outcome
brianmags
R4 556


This message was last edited by brianmags on 7/23/2008.

But my comments are not put forward as an argument, just stating facts from evidence and comparables.
Isn't there a query regarding some BGs, where the issuing bank is not the same as the one the deposits are held, therefore, a possible "get out" for the bank?
If the administrators were to be retained, who finances them. They don't do it for nothing.
You mention the not too distant future as being 3-4 years. You must realise if you research, that the period stated is very short term in the property cycle and few are predicting the present crisis will be resolved in the short term.
The 3-4 years, if the development was to proceed, the development time alone would be 2-3 years.
I would like that they get the funds needed to continue, but........

Hi FIN,
         I use the term argumet as in a forum for dicussion each has vaild points and I see by your last post that you actually agree that the best outcome  for all would be that they get that finance they need esspecially as we all might not see any money if they liqudate. My time frame was not including build times for which I appologise. but that said we all have to await the decision of the courts
brianmags

Of course I would like to see the development proceed, as if not, many will face financial ruin, but I don't think there is a chance in hell, despite the 700% profit margines that have been quoted.
If and a very big, no massive if, the development were to go ahead in part, say 1000-1500 units. Just forget all the leisure and commercial sectors. They could not justify. Which is another nail in the coffin.

I accept that your time frame was not including build times, which there is no need to appologise, it just again proves a point that many, many, "cherry pick" the points they want to happen.
3-4 years to regain losses, but forget the construction period prior.

I say look after yourself, forget the spin from SJ and remember, the information gathered by the Administrator is confidential until published, so don't expect too much or read too much into what you may hear (or cherry pick what you hear), from them

Hi FIN,
              Thanks for the advice and i am sorry if you thought I was cherry picking as i wasn't because it is much easier to sell when you have something to show instead of just foundations. 
        
 As for looking after myself all I can say is "my mama didn't raise no fool" buit I am aslo a great believer in the power of people who fight a cause as a group for the benifit of that group as a whole including those who view you as someone to be suspecious (Can't seem to spell correctly tonight) of.
Anyway I think that you are possibly a person of integrity and empathy with our plight as purchasers
good night and may your God go with you and protect you
brianmags



This message was last edited by brianmags on 7/23/2008.