The former judge,  Baltasar Garzón  has said that there should be a full-frontal attack on corruption, after the discovery 22 millon euros in a Swiss bank account in the name of the ex-treasurer, Luis Barcenas, of the Partido Popular.  Indeed, before Garzon was sacked from his top position he had has his suspicions about Barcenas.  Why is it that, given that this Barcenas will not be able to explain how he got his hands on so much money, it is not immediately seized?  What is stopping this from happening?  There seems to be a culture of acceptance of corruption in Spain going from the very top of society to the bottom.  This money and the other billions that could be found with a bit of investigation could help to pull Spain out of recession.  Is anyone else as annoyed/furious about this as I am?

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Absolutely Eggie, the whole of interlectual Spain is corrupt. By that I mean everyone who is clever enough to do it  is at it. The higher the power the more & higher cost the corruption. It's outragous.

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http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/spainnews/8923/bárcenas-back-handers-denied-by-spains-president.aspx

I wonder who is carrying out the investigation?

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Well it doesn't come as much of a surprise, as 2012 finished with over 300 politicians 'charged' with crimes of corruption in Spain and many are still active in their respective roles of responsability, none however resigned. No politcal party is free of shame and nearly 60 politicians working for ruling Government of the PP are still in court and still working as politicians and over 100 politicians that were 'charged with corruption' went on to present themselves at the last years elections. I know everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but out of respect to the general public I think the right thing to do is remove yourself from public roles until all doubts are cleared. Maybe I'm being unfair here but in some cases the evidence is so obvious its insulting. And at one point last year just after the summer there were officially 800 politicians and civil workers charged with crimes of corruption so you can get an idea of how widespread this problem is and how long it will take to get to  the bottom of it.

 

 

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 It does make me furious to see how everyone just takes it in their stride. Unless something radical is done it will continue for ever. It will be interesting to see Rajoys new civil reform which is due to be released soon, changing laws on how autonomous governments are run. Hopefully a first step in reducing corruption.  But when you see how widespread it is it is difficult to believe that they will do anything about as it will inevitably backfire on whoever is in Government at the time. It will take a lot of courage to actively eradicate corruption in Spain and whoever eventually does it will make an enormous amount of enemies. I take my hat off to Garzon and with balls of steel and has never buckled under pressure after years and years of being on ETA's hit list. Rajoy said the other day that his hand will not tremble if he has to go against people in his party, let's see how serious he is about all of this...

 

This message was last edited by mac75 on 21/01/2013.

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Thank you Mac75 and Eggcup for keeping everyone  informed.

If people would only recognise that there are effective campaign organsations in existence, such as AVAAZ, who to date have brought attention to all manner of issues that aim to make politicians/governments/corporate organisations more accountable for their actions.

BUT it relies upon a more proactive approach by the general public  to support these groups, by for instance interactively signing their petitions, or initiating a petition. AVAAZ appears very effective at bringing attention to what some perceive as insurmountable issues. Through the power of reasonable and fair argument they endeavour to highlight the strength of public concerns, and when supported in great numbers they strive to ensure that their petitions are responded to.

Only when people recognise and believe that there is a means by which they can responsibly and collectively be listened to (with such little effort required!), will aspects such as demonstrated in this thread, ever stand a chance of being effectively addressed.

The commitment as you rightly say Mac75 has to come from the general public. It's difficult to judge whether it is apathy by the public at large that is the stumbling block, or whether in reality they perceive the task such as this as insurmountable.... which is why I wanted to bring attention to the means by which the public can make their mark.  

 

 

This message was last edited by ads on 21/01/2013.

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 In my opinion , for what its worth, I feel its a general attitude of "thats just the way it is " . Most people are apathetic to this type of scandal now as its not news it is happening all over Spain and its  corruption overload  .

 

Find me a politician or banker who hasnt ripped off that will be news !!

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Former PP deputy acknowledges questionable cash “stashed in envelopes”

 

 elpais.com/elpais/2013/01/21/inenglish/1358772399_301805.html

 

Rajoy has ordered today an internal and external audit of the PP finances dating back to 1988

 

This is also a coincidence:)  An estate called La Moraleja in Argentina which is co-owned by Barcenas and another ex treasurer of the Partido Poular. According to the Argentinian papers his partner received a loan of €18M from the Oficial Spanish Institute of Credit whihc was never paid back and it is believed that the 22 million discovered in Swiss bank accounts was destined to end up in the accounts of La moraleja.

politica.elpais.com/politica/2013/01/21/album/1358762220_005134.html#1358762220_005134_1358762515

The plot thickens!!!

 

 

 

This message was last edited by mac75 on 21/01/2013.

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I don't think Barcenas' choice of Argentina to stash the cash is so astute.  De Kirchner will probably seize it off him!  He could have chosen a safer place. 

It's also quite interesting today, that Rajoy is denying having received the envelopes of cash himself.  That rather points to the opposite being true.  If they've all got their hands dirty, nothing will be done.  Does anyone know if Barcenas has got a story about how he came by all this money?  Is he the Richard Branson of Spain, an entrepreneur?  I just don't get it.  If he has no legitimate explanation regarding how he came by all this money, then why can't there be a police investigation?  I wonder if Spain has the law we have in the UK, regarding the proceeds of crime?

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 No one exactly knows at the moment where the money has come from, or at least no one is talking, but his lawyer came out saying that it comes from business operations and investments which he carried out with South American businessmen dating back 25 years, naturally before he was involved in the PP. 

As far as Argentina is concerned, I would bet anything you want that his money is perfectly safe there. Pretty much untouchable. No one gets to build an empire that large unless they have very very strong contacts in government. What they have over there is a major agricultural empire with over 1700 employees and is one of the worlds leading suppliers in lemon juice and soya. It is immense. So I would imagine that his money is fairly well protected, not just in Argentina but apparently in Panama too as the money that was in his swiss bank accounts allegedly belonged to a Foundation registered in Panama. But at the moment he is not being charged for the 22 million but questioned on the payments of "black" money to PP politicians from alleged illegal contract comissions. However today he sees himself as possibly being convicted and has threatened to release the PP's 'parallel' accounts  (black money books) which would reveal who received bonus payments and how much, apparantly he still has it in his possession, all in an attempt to avoid going to prison. 

 

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 So where did Barcenas get his money from? Here is an article from "El Pais" in english that tackles the question :

elpais.com/elpais/2013/01/23/inenglish/1358961682_050598.html

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Thanks for that Ian.  What the article shows is that he is trying to fudge the issue, and blind people with vague explanations.  If he has made money in stocks and art, then he can explain how he came by his 'stake money' in the first place, which stocks he bought, when he bought them, what he bought them for and what he sold them for and what art he has, when bought etc.  I've made money in property and I can show all of this; there's no mystery to wealth creation.  Unfortunately, with white collar crime like this, the police are out of their depth.  When there was the Maxwell case in the UK, the police couldn't handle the intricacies of it.  Hopefully, though, some Spanish judges might be clean enough, brave enough  and persistent enough to push a proper investigation.  I wouldn't be surprised if they met with a nasty accident in the process.  I once knew a young Mexican woman who was doing her PhD thesis on police corruption in Mexico and she had to worry about her safety and do her thesis in the UK.  When you're talking about millions and hundreds of millions, anything goes with criminals.

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 Hi, don't think for one moment that corruption is exclusive to Spain, if we knew everything that happened behind closed doors in Britain we would probably have a revolution!!!!!!! 

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Spain has just been ranked equal to Botswana on the corruption scale.

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Ref the list of corrupt countries. The post means that Spain and Botswana are equal 22nd. Behind them are so notable European nations eg. Italy at number 56 with the likes of Portugal 25 Czech Republic 35 and Hungary 38. France romps in at 18 and the US at 15.

So what can we conclude from this ? It's just a list based on lots of factors that can be played around with to suit various views. Does a goodish score make for a great place to live in I wonder. Based on many of the top countries I suspect not ie snowy and cold so guess what we all look for sunnier climes.

Many people who are not Spainish earning money in Spain are in my view attracted to the very fact that they can work in the dinero negro economy along with lots of locals. That is they are corrupt in not paying all their taxes. Whether Its the plumber someone uses sin iva or some guy stealing funds from a political party, there is no difference. Poor morals and ethics should never be measured in terms of monetary value. They are an absolute value.

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 Interesting news released yesterday re. Barcenas and Switzerland :

 Go to Barcenas article on EOS news blog

In reference to Spain equalling Botswana, thats just based on what they have discovered! :) Wait till they dig a bit deeper! Who knows where we will end up on the list! Should it affect one's decision to live in the country? I think it depends on why you are living or want to live there and if the corruption can really affect you directly or not. If you are in business I suppose it would be much more of a problem

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Yes, Ian.  I've spoken to my husband about the relative lack of interest people have on the Forum regarding this issue.  He thinks that British expats and/or those with holiday homes in Spain can live in their own little bubble and often not be too affected by corruption.  They can be more concerned about the best place to get an Indian meal and whether or not the spices were sufficiently flavoursome, or whether they're going to be personally a bit worse or better off every time there is a currency fluctuation.  Some people just aren't interested in the bigger picture, despite corruption having ruined or damaged the lives of many many people in the country in which they're living.  Some of us think that it's outrageous; other people's eyes glaze over.  As you say, we only see the tip of the iceberg in terms of corruption in Spain and it's a very big, fat tip so God knows the extent of the rest of it still hidden beneath the surface.

If you add on to the corruption the sheer waste of money on stupid vanity projects (we had a roundabout built near our village in Spain which was reputed to cost 1 million euros, to make the entrance to the small town look attractive - which it didn't, being an ugly, concrete thing), then it's mind-boggling (of course, one assumes there were backhanders, dodgy contract allocation etc in these cases too).  Someone tried to compare all of this to the UK.  There is no comparison; we have a completely different culture.  We don't have 300 politicians under investigation for corruption and our police service has become pretty clean since its nadir in the 1970s.  There's no comparison, but even if there were, would that make it okay, if everyone is as bad as the next person?  I'd like us to be a bit more idealistic than that.

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i agree with everything you say

its time to fight back

the spanish take the piss and they need a good slap

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Irish and living in this country since the 80's.   Love Spain and its people, but..................the corruption really and truly is unbearable. The general opinion is I agree, as some of the writers in the thread mention, Basic as it may seem, I think that it is simply an attitude of - who will listen???  Daily news programs report constantly of immenent strikes and  cutbacks effecting the average JoeSoap....he /she is so busy worrying about their job,(if they have one) worrying about what is going to happen to them, ie., cuts in salaries, longer working hours per week, not to mention the dreaded termination of their contract - and it goes without saying, that if you are one of the 6 million.........well your hands are tied or so it would seem.   Power and Money, Money an Power......hard to work against that - P.P were voted in by the majority, supposedly P.P were going to work the miracles that the P.S.O.E had not been capable of doing - neither of them are worth their weight in salt and are serious deliquents and total hypocrites,  robbing the Joe Soaps of Spain to line their own pockets while slowly but surely taking all the rights that have been acheived by this country in the years since the death of the Dictator.  It will be interesting to see what comes about in the future.........a country where the young are leaving in their droves to bring their expertise to other countries who will claim ownership of the results.   It is like history repeating itself!!!!   Many Spanish friends were appalled at the M15 movement  and considered them to be a group of radicals, reminds me of conversations with old men and women who will say outrageous things like - we were better off with the dictatorship - acceptable because of their age and lack of knowledge of democracy, but non the less a proposterous thing to say if one has any true recollection of how it was.  The current system in Spain reflects a lot of similiar attitudes to that era.  Keep it in the family, i.e, don't let the lower classes in, keep them poor and dependent on the 5% who hold the wealth, and therefore the power,  another thing that is slowly creeping back in is the ENCHUFAZO system, and I don't mean recommending someone for a job, but blatantly placing non suitable people into jobs simply because of their family or social connection.   Anyway sorry to go on and on, but I get furious, and to think that these theives are free and walking the streets able to enter into other business deals while lying their way out of the ones that they are accused of.

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