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Keith
much as I applaud your action, and very helpful info' on the law, having spent years getting judgement in my favour on a very clear case of theft, and still not getting anything back, thanks largely to a two year court delay, I would be very wary at throwing any more money at the Spanish justice system. It stinks i'm afraid, and as soon as one door opens, another one shuts. No I think we will have to rely on outside help on this, as I suspect after spending several years and a substantial joint amount on lawyers fees to submit a case against the banks, the government would probably change the rules for claims against banks, or take their side in a court case, however 'wrong'. If I've learned anything in the last few years, it's that the Spanish justice can't be trusted to do the right thing by those cheated. I need to see firm evidence of change in that area before I would risk costly litigation agaist a financial institution as strong as the banks, their lawyers, and friends in high places!!
I hope i'm wrong, but I still feel our only chance is from EU help to force Spain to take positive action for those cheated, as countless amounts of evidence/petitions of fraud and corruption at all levels has been placed in front of Spains top brass, with no effect whatsoever. We must not give up by any means, but we must accept what we are up against.
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Thank you all today there have been some excellent constructive posts.
I do tend to agree with goodstich I am afraid but am very grateful for Keiths advice here.
The brutal harsh reality is that Spanish law is warped in favour of the corrupt, evil and rich and powerful and of couse the legal profession. There is very little moral justice involved. You see the problem is that Spain's legal track record is appalling as we all know. As Keith says lots of "won" cases with lots of fat fees for Lawyers with nothing for the victim. it would be an interesting statistic to know just how many people have actually died being owed money by Developers who have kept their deposits and never built a thing.
In our case today I am totally depressed because here we have a situation where a Lawyer is demanding 1300 Euros off us to basically repeat exactly what he has already done. All that is needed is to present the copy of the document that Aifos have already signed agreeing to repayment as ordered by a Judge. And that costs 1300 Euros ? I would represent myself and may indeed do so but so far I undestand I am not allowed !! I am considering issuing a complaint to the body that represents the spanish legal bar about this frivolous case and also need some way of communcationg directly with Aifos Lawyers and the Administrators but understand that is very hard to do as well. Perhaps contacting some of the major Creditors may help. Its very doubtful that we will be the only ones Aifos are doing this with and its clear to me that they are simply trying to drag out the Administration process as long as possible so that there is hardly a penny left for anyone at the end of it all. Apart from Aifos, their Lawyers and the Adminisrators of course. You have to remember also we are classed as Ordinary Creditors after the Taxman and Banks so realistically we will end up with very litte many years from now probably far less than our legal fees.
I have almost come to the conculsion that Its highly unlikely We will ever see a penny of our stolen money.
I would certainly support and seriously consider contrubuting to any ne forming an acttion group against the banks but as goodstich excellently puts in his last post I would very pessmisitic about its chances of success. I think I would prefer to divert that time and energy back towards the people involved with the Spanish Property scandal and start approaching new local Mps and MEPS to pressurise the European Parliament to really get tough with Spain.
Perhaps now that we have a new government in place - as we know Gordon Clown and his Labour comrades were totally disinterested in our cause then it is time to seriously engage with our newly elected politicans ?
Like goodstitich I see zero Chance of Spain ever putting its own house in order unless they are forced to do so by outside action.
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 13/05/2010.
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Hi All
Yes, I agree with johnmfranci5, there have been many excellent constructive posts today regarding Off-Plan purchases.
I mentioned that we should all put pressure on the Banks, Banco de Espana and the Spanish Government, but I also agree wholeheartedly with the other posters who feel that pressure should also be put on the European Parliament, MEP's and the new UK Government.
It would be interesting to know just how many off-plan purchasers in Spain are at risk of losing their deposits due to the failure of the Banks and Developers to issue the legally required Bank Guarantees according to LEY 57/68. I think this is a huge problem and probably amounts to tens of thousands of buyers. Zapatero needs to acknowledge the scale of the problem and take immediate action.
johnmfranci5 you say in your post:
"You have to remember also we are classed as Ordinary Creditors after the Taxman and Banks so realistically we will end up with very litte many years from now probably far less than our legal fees"
Have a read of the following legal tip that was posted by Maria de Castro last month on her EOS Blog. It makes interesting reading.
Kind regards
Keith
FINCA PARCS ACTION GROUP
www.fincaparcsactiongroup.com
Legal tip 256. Precedent favouring buyers without Bank Guarantee during Insolvency Proceedings
Buyers of Martinsa-Fadesa who have not received their houses due to delays and failures of the construction will have priority over other creditors in the recovery of amounts paid in advance for off-plan purchases. This will be effective even if the amounts are not backed by Bank Guarantee or Insurance Policies. Martinsa entered into creditor´s meeting in July 2008.
This follows a ruling by the Commercial Court No. 1 of La Coruña, which requests the receivers to exclude a home buyer from the list of creditors of the insolvency proceedings (which are the ones who suffer the consequences of insolvency protection and are subject to composition with creditors).
Thus, the savings invested may be recovered against the assets of the company if the purchase contract is cancelled due to default of the developer, since only this way, this payment can be considered as credits against Martinsa-Fadesa.
The claims against the assets are the first ones to be paid in a payment plan or in a liquidation process, ahead of privileged claims - such as those of the Treasury Department and Social Security - and the ordinary creditors.
This message was last edited by Keith110 on 13/05/2010.
_______________________
LEY 57/1968
CLICK HERE FOR THE BANK GUARANTEES IN SPAIN WEBSITE
  
fpag@btinternet.com
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Great summary johnmfranci5. \from a personal point of view, we are still awaiting judgement on our case against Palmera Properties and Grupo Mirador. The judge keeps postponing, and has done for approx 2 years. I wrote the money off long ago, as even our Lawyer doesn't believe the money will be forthcoming without further legal actions if/when we win. There comes a point when you have to let go and move on in life, otherwise it becomes all consuming. It's easy for Lawyers to say keep fighting, but who is funding it? And what guarantees are there?
I agree with Goodstitch in that our only real hope is political pressure. But I also think that is a pipedream. I know there are many that will accuse me of just bringing gloom to the site, and being negative, and I apologise. But this is the unfortunate reality.
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Thank you Keith I am sure we are all very grateful for your assistance and advice here.
Again I am very grateful for Goodstich's and Marias Posts and of course contructive other posters here.
Whats even more depressing is that I feel that it my own Lawyer who should be telling me these sort of things and suggesting the constructuve way ahead rather than just trying to extract money out of us for doing very little.
John
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 13/05/2010.
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johnmfranci5
I think your situation pretty much sums up what we are up against. I wonder how many have followed the rules, gone down the legal route, and ended up with nothing, and how many more face a similar situation?
I really think we have to change direction and put all efforts in to those who can force change to the current farce that is the Spanish justice system. As fultond says, it does seem a pipedream at the moment judging by the response many of us have had from lobbying our mp's and mep's. What is the alternative though?, plough a load more money in to a hopeless case?, give up completely, and walk away, putting it down to experience? We do indeed have to move on and get on with our lives, but I think we can still do that while doing everything we can to change the shocking system that has robbed and cheated so many decent people time and time again. The fact we know we are in the right and have been cheated by crooks working in a crooked system, means to me that somehow, our only chance is to find someone in a position of power who can recognise the situation for what it is, and take action.
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Dear Goodstich
I don't know your full story but if you have a link to a summary please point me in the right direction and I will read your story.
My honest opinion is that MPs/MEPs will never help you in the same way as the British Consulate in Spain never helps other than charging high fee to its citizens by comparison with other Consulates. In some cases their fees are 7 times more - why?
Likewise I have no great faith in the Spanish legal system. I always recommend, if at all possible, to try to make the best of a bad deal and at least end up with something tangible in preference to expensive litigation and no guaranteed outcome. Of course for some maybe litigation is the only option......
Today at the Colegio de Abogados de Malaga a session is being conducted with the The Law Society of England & Wales and despite the course title "private client issues in English and Spanish law" I bet you those laywers attending from both sides of the water will not even discuss how badly English people have been treated in Spain by its legal system and those within that system.
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I have today emailed Sir Robert Atkins MEP for the North West. I believe he is already aware of the Spanish Property Scandal petition. (http://www.sir-robertatkins.org/)
I referred him once more to it. and also this thread which has many excellent posts thoughout describing all the issues.
As well as making aware of our personal case I asked him to:
1.Campaign urgently to block Spain's EEC handout and to suspend its membership of the EEC in light of Spain's total lack of effort or willingness to work to resolve the issues involved.
2.Work urgently towards a compensation fund for victims of the Spanish Property nightmare.
3.Bring up the situation with the new British Prime Minister. I also asked himto look at a unlateral withholding of UK funds to the EEC to set up a compensation fund as well.
4.I described how wrong it was that Spain has a law to supposedly protect Off plan deposits by Bank Guarantee bu this is routinely ignored and no-one is ever prosecuted for ignoring it. Indeed also that Lawyers were never prosecuted for allowing Purchasers to buy properties without such protection. I pointed this out as a breach of human rights by Spain and it should face a huge fine for allowing this to continue.
5.I also made the point that in my view the Spanish legal system is utterly corrupt in particular allowing Companies like Aifos to Constanly be in court on identical cases with no meaningful punishments.
I realise the people at the Spanish Property scandal petition are already campaiging on this but it does no harm for as many of us as possible to raise these issues with their local MPs, MEPS and the newly elected Prime Minister.
I will report back when I hear anything.
John
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 15/05/2010.
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john
well done indeed. I think this is the only real way forward now, however hard it's going to be to get action?
Your letter explains only to well the reality of the situation, and what must be done to achieve justice. Spain has had more than enough time now to recognise just how badly it's system has treated many people through corruption and lack of regulation, and to put wheels in motion at least, to comsensate those it's let down so badly, but what do we see??. With that in mind, it's hard to imagine any change in the near future without very firm action from powers outside of Spain?. The only winners I feel at the moment (apart from the crooks) are lawyers who continue to tell us that the laws are in place and we should continue (for probably years?) more action through them at our expense. Like many, I went along with that, firmly believing in the fact that we were so clearly in the right that justice must prevail sooner or later in an EU country that's had such a close relationship with the UK. ........WRONG!!!
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John,
Please can you identify the email address of Sir Robert Atkins MEP so that people can write direct to him to highlight their own personal circumstance and support the action.
Just to repeat, I recently received the following details in an email from Marta Andreasen:
"The Auken Report was adopted by the European Parliament in March 2009, and its recommendation has been ignored by Spain - a year on. Without a credible threat, Spain will not address the problem. I have vowed to block EU funds to the Spain - and the only means to achieve this, is a parliamentary resolution.
I now ask, that you write to your MEPs, tell them to listen to the people, go beyond traditional politics and cross party lines, and ask them to support a resolution in the European Parliament. No other measure will do - Any other answer is just an attempt to drown this issue. I will seek a vote in the forthcoming parliamentary session to achieve this. "
Therefore it is essential that people also write to ask that MEP's listen to the people , cross party lines if needs be, and vote to support her resolution to block EU funds to Spain in the forthcoming parliamentary session.
We should not ignore this opportunity to let our voices be heard in this regard, so long as Spain ignores the report.
This message was last edited by ads on 16/05/2010.
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I mailed
robert.atkins@europarl.europa.eu
found on:
http://www.sir-robertatkins.org/contact/
Really we need to get ALL British MEPs onside.
Also we need to realise its not just Brits being constantly ripped off as well.. for example I am pretty certain there will be plenty of German, Dutch and French victims as well so if someone who speaks German/French/Dutch would like to contact those MEPs then that would be great. Indeed I am aware there are plenty of Spanish victims as well but Spanish MEPs are not going to vote against their own gravytrain.
I would suggest people mail the MEPs for the area of the UK that they are from. I simply found Roberr's details by typimg 'MEP northwest' into google and tacking thru the links shown.
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 16/05/2010.
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 16/05/2010.
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 16/05/2010.
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Another action I think we all need to take if not already done so: (Other suggestions welcomed)
We must register formal complaints with the Spanish Law Society about the Lawyers who allowed us to proceed on off plan transactions wihout a Bank Guarantee asking that the Society takes action against the Lawyer concerned. Keith has provided all the neccessary info I believe on this subject.
If anyone has the exact contact details of the Spanish Law society or governing body for Lawyers whom it would be most appropriate to address such complaints to then we would be most grateful if they could post it here. I am certain it will be in the other threads on EOS and I could likely find it. Just could save us some time if someone does know it straight away.
Thanks,
John
This message was last edited by johnmfranci5 on 17/05/2010.
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ads
well done for the list. I have just contacted all the names on it (apart from two that wouldn't send?), with the text you provided and a brief outline of my case also. I strongly urge everyone involved with the Spanish property industry to do the same. When we get the long overdue positive active, I firmly believe it will benifit everyone, not least Spain. its people, and it's reputation.
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johnmfranci5
over the years, I've seen it said many times that the governing body for Spanish lawyers is nothing more than an 'old boys club' who never take action against their own?. I know this sounds very cynical and I wouldn't want to put anyone off taking any action possible to further the cause, but I think we need to be aware of this.
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Thanks Adds,
Although we have not been directly affected by the corruption (yet) I fully support those that have.
I have also emailed all the MEPs on your list. So far I have had several replys, all auto responses and containing the same statement. I think this shows that people are getting in contact but, that most of the MEPs have decided to put it on the back burner and try to fob us off with "We are waiting for Spain to reply".
The only way to get the attention of the Spanish authorities is for any money from the EU to be put on hold until they do listen and act on these issues.
Corruption in any country should not be allowed to flourish.Those that benefited from corruption should be made to pay for any compensation and if that bankupts them then tough.
_______________________
Don't say you can't do something without adding the word YET after it.
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I to have emailed all on the list and was more than happy to do so, had no returns thus far
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David W
I've had one 'out of office' reply and one proper reply within 10 mins of sending, so the e-mails are being viewed.
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jack5340
I think many of us think the same as you in that that re-directed funds would probably be the only way to real justice if Spain continues to ignore the ever growing huge amount of evidence?
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Goodstich
Have had the automated reply now, am using an 02 dongle from Spain.
When i had posted i had literally finished sending
Lets hope they not only get through, and are read, but lead to some positive action
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