Rough justice yet again!

Norman,

I  do understand your situation and I think it is very sad and highlights how people are affected by the corruption in Spain. 

You do not have the money to pursue your loss.  Correct?  So, what are your options?   If you cannot afford a lawyer to represent you in Court, then how are you hoping to recover your loss?  I cannot think of any way that you will recover your money. Therefore, as many people like you have had to do, you should, if it is possible, accept your loss and get on with your remaining years as best you can. People caught out who are in the 30's/40's even 50's have time to recoup their loss  to a degree, whilst earning a salary. If ,like me, you are of pensionable age, that option is no longer there, unless you are lucky to have an inheritance.(We are not one of those lucky ones!!) 

When my husband, myself and another lady whom we met through SPI forum., jointly engaged our lawyer, he was our third lawyer for all of us. This lady and I spent months researching everything about the directors of the company involved, the history of the licences etc. the planning applications. This entailed going to Spain, going to the Town Hall in Marbella, sitting infront of the planning department lady, the legal department people, hounding the construction developers in person, and the lawyer of the said construction company + 100's of hours trawling the internet.   I know how much time and effort I have put into all of this . 4 1/2 years, non stop.  We were one of the early birds who realised the extent of the illegal planning applications and took our case to Court. It took just 3 months with our current lawyer to go to Court and get judgement, nine monthjs to get all our money and expenses back. We paid approx 1200 euros upfront. Worth every penny!   We had already wasted approx 700euros on our second useless lawyer. We had no other option if we wanted to recover our money.

Norman, whilst I know you are very aggrieved and rightly so, I know of others far far worse off than you. I'm sure that's no comfort to you though.

My final word on this thread is this. For you to continue picking away at every tiny detail on this thread, is not going to right your wrongs. What you say is of value, of course it is.    But you need to be able to move on  with your life . My best wishes to you.

Suzie

 ''TWO YEARS''  and  ''1 PERSON WITH MONEY RETURNED''  Heavens above!!,  does that confirm what most of us feel about Spanish justice or  what????.  That is a truly appaling state of affairs.

Maria, who very kindly gives her help free of charge on here, says cases are being won more often, but it's hard to take much consolation from that when reading your post.

good luck with the letter Suzie. How about hiring an industrial stapler, and attaching it to his gonads!!.........oh, and the same for the equivalent minister in Spain!!

Tish. The I am all right Jack did not refer to you at all.

Suzies post about sums up just how bad the situation is and why those like Norman cant fight it.

Well done on your case,perhaps you may not be advising Norman to get on with his life if you had lost

In your I.M.O you feel that this thread a rather hopeless cause until then I will join Suzie and Goddstich44 in trying to get direct political intervention. To do this we need to keep the pressure up as in the past and not give up.

As Goodstich44 says we are all on the same side anyway. One head goes down another picks them up.

Cases won and monies returned are two distinctly different aspects due to the long appeal process and/or enforcement process, so I wonder which is the case here? It would be interesting to know if all those clients where the intital case was won received their monies back into their accounts Maria?

We have got a testimonial section in our website, where people voluntarily tells on their cases. http://www.costaluzlawyers.es/index.php?page=testimonials&hl=en_GB

and there are more who have not written a testimonial.

Bringing a case against a developer/guaranoor is also a way to somehow recoup some rights who were not included/honoured by developers/Banks...how not to offer people to claim for what is theirs?

There you go Norman.

Maria. As Suzy has pointed out there is a list of probably 100s that have cases/ many have won cases with only one getting payment and that was a bank guarantee and I would suggest it because a property wasnt even built.

We may be talking thousands and reports of a 10 year backlog in cases waitng to be heard  for the 1st  2nd or 3rd time.

Suzy has mentioned winning a case,the developer appealed  .Its taking years by all accounts to have a second hearing .Why

What is the percentage of cases won ,payment made in full including all costs and interest.as per the law.?

Goodstich44  had by all accounts a very good solicitor so why 8 years and nothing. These were good solicitors like you so something really stinks and if Spain cant sort it and be part of the E.U then someone else must.

The courts play roundaround in circles letting the corrupt con people like Goodstich 44 and Norman .Its about time someone stopped the roundabout.

With respect  many solicitors are very nice and helpful .They win either way.

maria

so in cases like mine, where despite having a court embargo, the court delayed our case for 12 months, then our sentence for at least 5 months, (so the company goes in to administration meaning our embargo is lost) who do you feel should be responsible?  This seems like a 'no win' situation, as how many can afford to take the justice system to court for delay?

Goodstich44 and one other.

Please forgive that I have not replied to private messages. I do not have access to this facility at the moment.

Dear All,

it seems that there was not actually too much wrong with my summing up after all, even though it may have been badly put.

as to giving up and going away to slumber peacefully in the corner, hmm! I will give it some thought, but not very much I expect.

I am afraid the thought of my children and grandchildren being robbed by the crooked lawyers is enough to boil the blood, thin as it may be.

it seems that nothing is straightforward in seeking recovery, despite Maria's simple statements of full consumer protection in place, to use Smiley's term, it is a "million miles away" from actuality.

Both goodstich and tish have posted immense difficulty and effort involved by brilliant lawyers after changing from the crooks. All with no sensible prospect of success, just a huge gamble.

if there was really any consumer protection in place, both their cases would have taken seconds to decide by any honest competent judge, that in turn would have halted the procession of similar cases coming forward.

the fault is clearly with the lawyers and they should be using every effort to stamp it out in their ranks, but will they ever do so whilst it is producing such a steady income stream, not likely I think.

so once again what to do???

well tish's up front fee was not that bad, not beyond possibility, but she does not give any further details.

So is there any lawyer out there who will offer low cost, no win no fee options???

Even the decrepit can keep up the fight in some way without getting bored and booed by the more fortunate.

Hope so.

Regards

Norman

Some answers below in bold green ( back from playground and once children are ready to go to bed)

 For Chimps

Maria. As Suzy has pointed out there is a list of probably 100s that have cases/ many have won cases with only one getting payment and that was a bank guarantee and I would suggest it because a property wasnt even built.

We may be talking thousands and reports of a 10 year backlog in cases waitng to be heard  for the 1st  2nd or 3rd time.

Suzy has mentioned winning a case,the developer appealed  .Its taking years by all accounts to have a second hearing .Why

What is the percentage of cases won ,payment made in full including all costs and interest.as per the law.? I cannot tell you of other law Firms but I am definitely asking a member of my team to do a final recount tomorrow to offer to you specific statistics of our work during the last 3 years.

For Goodstich

maria

so in cases like mine, where despite having a court embargo, the court delayed our case for 12 months, then our sentence for at least 5 months, (so the company goes in to administration meaning our embargo is lost) who do you feel should be responsible? We need to see if that can be considered an abnormal operation of Justice services ( improper delay) so that you can ask the Justice Administration for liabilities in your case.  This seems like a 'no win' situation, as how many can afford to take the justice system to court for delay? You just to meet the legal requirements of waht is considered ( by Law and Case LAw) and unlawful delay.

Normansands:

if there was really any consumer protection in place, both their cases would have taken seconds to decide by any honest competent judge, that in turn would have halted the procession of similar cases coming forward.

I cannot see if in those cases Consumer Law was o not respected as civil  Justice is " party promoted" and if lawyers do not bring the Consumer Law argument,s Judge cannot pass a decission based in Consumer Law. I would need to see the lawsuit they produced and evidences brought to the Judge in order to see if Courts were or not respectful towards Consumers protection.

Hi Norman , I think the no win no fee option is illegal in Spain ie not permitted by the law colleges who govern the profession .

What I would like to know from the legals ,is if there are any exceptions to this rule for any one experiencing hardship ,a bit like our legal aid system .I think not but what do the colleges say about such cases ?

Can the rules be wavered in any way in specific cases where people just can not pay up front but have a good case .?

Any comments on this gratefully received . I am in touch with many mostly elderly people in this very  situation . Perhaps justice in Spain is only for the rich ? However I feel it is a question worth asking whatever the answer .Thanks MM .

To goodstich44,

I appreciate what you say and hope that things goes well and you get what you are owed,

But its one thing that the spanish are getting money out of the English , but when English people living in spain are conning other english people out of well earned money when trying to make a better life in spain then I think its a bit below the belt.

I dont  think that they realise that one day the conned will be in spain face to face with the conners then lets see what they have to say.

Norman there is nothing more to say about the fees we paid.  What else do you want to know?

Tedjusant  I think you mean British !!!!!! There are many Welsh ,Scots and Irish who have been conned as well .The agent who sold and lied  to me was a Scot . Regards MM

Dear Tish,

thank you again for your patience,

but it would be good to know what in total you had at risk and what in total I would be risking, also figures from goodstich and others with confirmation from Maria would be extremely helpful.

but I do not want to reopen any old wounds, so please ignore me if it is too painful.

Best Regards

Norman

Dear Magicmeg:

There is Free Justice in Spain for those which meet certain requirements. The State assigns a lawyer to the defence of their interests. This does not secure the assigned lawyer is an specialist on the matters that need to be covered.

If those people still want an specialist, the possibility  ( out of the lawyer´s good will)  is to agree an initial minimum provision of funds ( which can even be paid in different instalments), and leave the rest of the payment for the end, when very possibly, if they have  a strong case,  will bepaid by the loser party ( including the initial provision of funds already paid by the client). 

Maria, I'm not sure I would trust a State assigned Lawyer in the light of how foreigners are treated by the Spanish judicial system.  Sorry to be so negative.

Norman, from what you have written about yourself, I'd say we had the same to lose as you probably have. We had to take that risk.  As I said, we took that action in 2005 when the huge level of corruption was barely known to Joe Public. It was just coming to the surface. The Courts were not clogged up and nobody fully realised the scale of the corruption. If we were to be facing that same issue today, knowing what we know now, I would, like you be VERY worried about going down the legal route to get our money back.  Our safety was knowing we had a Bank Guarantee.

When I asked my husband what he would do in the same situation now, he said if we had a BG he would proceed  with action.  If we did not have a BG, he would not take the risk until he had fully investigated the developers financial situation, which you can do, and find out if the property already had a mortgage on it. If it was not worth proceeding because of the developers negative situation, then we would not pursue the action and would have to bear the loss as bitter as it would be. He would walk away from it.   We would  possibly  consider selling our house and buy one of lesser value to cushion the hit, bearing in mind he is nearing retirement. As he said and I agree, why let it ruin the rest of your precious life?

maria

thank you for your reply on court delay. Aside from the 12 month delay on the hearing, the sentence is going to be at least 5 months since the hearing even if it is passed in September?  I thought sentence should be passed in approx 20 working days after the hearing?, or is there no limit to how long a judge can take, even with those we are up against being on the brink of bankruptcy before the delays?

I realise each case has to be taken on its own merit, but I feel we should have a strong case in hearing and sentence delays if they ruin our embargo?

thanks again for all your help to all on the forum.

Hi goodstitch44,

just to let you know that I and probably hundreads more are in the same boat as you regarding delays!

My court case was in March, as you say the court should provide a written sentance within 20 working days! I was checking my inbox everyday throughout April, then i found out that the timescale was just a guideline, and most of the time the court wont produce a sentance within the 20 days. So here I am at the end of August still waiting, it is the worst feeling ever.