Rough justice yet again!

Dear Normansands:

Are you asking about your development or in general?  If you are asking in general:

Q.how many people have actually got useful money back into their account, very few are known about, if any.

A.I would say we have around between 30 and 40 clients who already got money back during this three years of exclusive work in this field... and I am sure many other lawyers will have their own bunch. Appeal Courts in Malaga ( for instance) have already a  good set of pro-consumer Case Law for this type of cases.

If you need more precise statistics, pleas email me so I can ask a member of my team to make them.

A.It is already a legal obligation out of Consumers Law to specify all commun and usable area in the contract.  Publicity have had contractual value since 1977, when the Supreme Court first passed a decission on this. You may like to read the article below:

 http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/publicity-contract.aspx

Q.When is the contract going to be modified to include all the communal facilities fully specified and usable?

Thank you Maria,

so the brochure is king and automatically included in the contract, that unfortunately makes the lawyers who threaten their "own" dissatisfied clients with the loss of the deposit even bigger criminals, doesn't it????

what about the exaggerated rental predictions I wonder????

surely if this law was followed by the Spanish lawyers and courts, there would be no problems, Smiley's "million miles away" would be reduced to zero, Chimps would be happy that the law was being followed, there would be no need for petitions or EU intervention and our cases would never have occurred.

so how do we make Spanish lawyers follow the law and be accountable???

Great stuff if you can make it happen.

Thanks again

Regards

Norman 

Answering Normansands ( below in bold orange)

so the brochure is king and automatically included in the contract, that unfortunately makes the lawyers who threaten their "own" dissatisfied clients with the loss of the deposit even bigger criminals, doesn't it???? It does.

what about the exaggerated rental predictions I wonder???? Who promised them?

surely if this law was followed by the Spanish lawyers and courts, there would be no problems, Smiley's "million miles away" would be reduced to zero, Chimps would be happy that the law was being followed, there would be no need for petitions or EU intervention and our cases would never have occurred. Spanish lawyers need to propose the right arguments before Courts and yes, keep building up a fair pro-consumers Case LAw.

so how do we make Spanish lawyers follow the law and be accountable???  Negligency actions against their Inurance companies. Failed actions for refunding are needed first:in our opinion and in order to secure a good result for the negligency action.

Dear Maria,

as you posted.........

"Answering Normansands ( below in bold orange)

so the brochure is king and automatically included in the contract, that unfortunately makes the lawyers who threaten their "own" dissatisfied clients with the loss of the deposit even bigger criminals, doesn't it???? It does. Agreed

what about the exaggerated rental predictions I wonder???? Who promised them? In the brochure

surely if this law was followed by the Spanish lawyers and courts, there would be no problems, Smiley's "million miles away" would be reduced to zero, Chimps would be happy that the law was being followed, there would be no need for petitions or EU intervention and our cases would never have occurred. Spanish lawyers need to propose the right arguments before Courts and yes, keep building up a fair pro-consumers Case LAw. Agreed for the honest lawyers

so how do we make Spanish lawyers follow the law and be accountable???  Negligency actions against their Inurance companies. Failed actions for refunding are needed first:in our opinion and in order to secure a good result for the negligency action. Why should an agreed criminal be charged with negligence when there is no negligence involved????? His dishonesty was deliberate and premeditated and he should be criminally charged, surely?????

Until that happens the corruption will continue, the developers will continue to take advantage of the lawyers dishonesty and the courts will continue to overflow."

Thank you for your honesty and patience.

Best Regards

Norman

This thread is getting reeeeeeally boring now. I think it's been done to death.

Norman, you are never going to get all the answers you want to hear. Even if you do, it changes nothing. Justice is VERY rough in Spain. Enough of us have been trying to change it. personally, I don't hear of much improvement. infact it's the contrary. I never cease to be amazed at how badly people are treated. Going on and on and on and on about it is, IMHO, pointless.

 Has anyone had dealing with Manzanares Solicitors ??

Tish,

Let Norman have his head. Even if it means he   queries every nitpicking detail of a persons reply it also means that we, who are reading it, can understand every nuance of that reply.  Normans inquisition is serving to bare the truth at  the root cause of  Spanish off-plan property fraud

People are not allowed to get away with a flippant or dismissive answer with Norman at the helm.

It's a pity that many of us (including Norman) were not so nitpicking when dealing with our Spanish solicitors when buying our property. And if it swerves to warn potential buyers who read this thread then I can cope with seeing it done to death.

Go Norman Go!!

It's fine people venting their obvious frustrations and total fraudulent criminal rip-offs here, but yes, I agree with Tish, the people venting their frustrations here have been doing so for some time and anyone visiting the site (despite the poor search facility!!)  can find sufficient information they may require, without being confused by reading the same old thing on many different threads!!

There are members here who have suffered greatly and who are dealing with their mistreatment/loss/fraudulent contracts/etc., through the channels available to them, but they don't have to continually ask the same questions!!

There are some members who deem it necessary to continually harp on about the same points in many different threads who don't seem to realise that they may be doing themselves (on this forum) an injustice by continually complaining about their problem.  We, on EOS, all know the story!  And anyone visiting can (notwithstanding what I've said above about the search facility) seek out so much information they may require.

As someone who bought, without problem, off plan and actually got what they expected and, as somebody who has seen what a lot of people in another country thought they were buying and didn't receive, I'm glad we chose Spain!!  Would probably have done it a little differently with all the knowledge I have now, but the end result is what we were promised.

Again for Norman Sands below in bold green:

Dear Maria,

as you posted.........

"Answering Normansands ( below in bold orange)

so the brochure is king and automatically included in the contract, that unfortunately makes the lawyers who threaten their "own" dissatisfied clients with the loss of the deposit even bigger criminals, doesn't it???? It does. Agreed. For a criminal offence the " threat" needs to be enoughly documented. If not, we can just got for a civil action for negligence.

what about the exaggerated rental predictions I wonder???? Who promised them? In the brochure

surely if this law was followed by the Spanish lawyers and courts, there would be no problems, Smiley's "million miles away" would be reduced to zero, Chimps would be happy that the law was being followed, there would be no need for petitions or EU intervention and our cases would never have occurred. Spanish lawyers need to propose the right arguments before Courts and yes, keep building up a fair pro-consumers Case LAw. Agreed for the honest lawyers

so how do we make Spanish lawyers follow the law and be accountable???  Negligency actions against their Inurance companies. Failed actions for refunding are needed first:in our opinion and in order to secure a good result for the negligency action. Why should an agreed criminal be charged with negligence when there is no negligence involved????? His dishonesty was deliberate and premeditated and he should be criminally charged, surely????? Yes, if you can enoughky proof the criminal behaviour before a Judge.

Until that happens the corruption will continue, the developers will continue to take advantage of the lawyers dishonesty and the courts will continue to overflow."

I agree that Bar Associations and Law Society would need to review and punish some lawyer´s behaviours of some lawyers in Spain during the real estate boom. That would help a lot.

Thank you for your honesty and patience. A pleasure.

Best Regards

Norman

Maria !!!!!!! please !!! it never works like this in practise !!!  , if you are totally honest people are just  just wasting their time and money on all of this.The only ones benefiting from this whole scam once again are the  the lawyers who can promise nothing and are extorting more money on a wing and a prayer ,God forgive them for cashing in on the victims of this fraud not once but  again  and again. I think the whole Spanish system is rotten to  the core ,Justice will never be ours ,We have been robbed and cheated and no one cares .MM 

Dear MagicMeg:

With all my respest towards your perception: it is not being our experience. People fighting are getting results and more results will be coming once this Spanish economy gets reactivated again... . It seems it is the last in the  European row.

French, German, Japanese economies.... do not you want to buy once of these sunny developments?

Good morning all

wouldn't it be nice if someone in the Spanish government who is in a position to force change, would come on here and say what is being done and what they intend to do for those cheated to get deposits back or property finished?  It really would help those of us cheated to feel we are being heard, and action is being taken?

Maria says people are starting to win cases, and that's great, but they shouldn't have to go it alone. We need our cases accepted as the nightmare they are, and someone to have the balls to admit failing many of us. Not just the agents/lawyers/developers, but the government  themselves must accept that their mistakes are ultimately to blame for allowing so much hardship.

Justin.....could you contact anyone in that position and put that to them?

Pitby

until something happens that leads to those of us cheated getting justice of some sort, then I feel threads like this should be at the top. We have established the system has let many down, and is in desperate need of change. We now need to get our heads together to find ways forward. When those wronged are treated in an acceptable way then this thread and others like it might not be so important, but please be patient for those not as fortunate as yourself. We are just doing what we can to highlight  the injustice. If everyone pulls together, I believe we stand more chance of success, but if it's swept under the carpet it will be treated that way, the thresd will fall out of sight, and those wronged are back on their own.

Dear All,

goodstich has reached the end of the "go-it-alone" route and got no where it seems, but wants to press on with major group routes!

Chimps and others want to support him sure that something must be done to change things

tish is totally disenchanted and thinks all routes are boringly pointless!

magic megs thinks the corruption is endemic, unbeatable and seeks to avoid wasted time and money!

Maria wants to build on individual cases in search of success!

Gillespie and Smiley are cynical observers with valued information for future use!

Sandra thinks there is more information to be gleaned!

Bobaol has done both nightmare and dream and survived to be an enthusiast with a tale to tell!

Pitby is also an enthusiast, keen to spread the word of her single purchase, complete with all its problems of landslip, subsidence, dogs, neighbours etc. etc. but nevertheless fully satisfied with vacancies available. She also wants all negative threads like this filed away somewhere where only a good search engine can find them.

Norman is still undecided and keeping his last few pennies away from the lawyers for the moment, but heavily slanted towards magicmegs's view.

What to do????

Regards

Norman

Norman, if you were as incorrect in summing up your purchase in Spain as you are about the personal thoughts, motives etc of people on this forum then  sorry, but I'm not surprised you lost your money.  I don't like myself for saying that but really......... 

  Where/when have I ever said it is boringly pointless to pursue your money back from corrupt developers/lawyers.? I've done both. Won one, awaiting corrupt lawyers appeal after winning second one.(The Judge denounced the lawyer for malpractice)  What I DID say, is IMHO, this thread has been done to death with your constant nit picking over every tiny detail that is not going to produce what you want...your money back. Unless you put your money where your mouth (or typing finger )is and instruct a lawyer to take your developer to Court, then you do not have a cat in hells chance of getting your money back. It's another gamble that many have had to take. Some lucky ones have won, some have lost.  It should not be a gamble, but it is. The law in Spain is there, it is not carried out. Until such time as it is, it's a gamble as to which side you land on. You are not prepared to gamble though. As the saying goes "you've gotta be in it to win it"!!! 

Goodstich knows the length and depth of my campaigning. I have and always will support him.  You are constantly putting him down for his efforts, but at least he has tried. Why don't you  try for yourself instead of moaning and disecting every post . It IS getting boring.

Maria is kind enough to answer your questions, but it is not going to resolve your case.  Most of us who use these forums, know what the problems are. They are well documented and are there for anyone who visits here to see. Yes, keep on pursuing our  joint goal, but please stop the character assasination and saying things that are not true.

This message was last edited by Tish on 17/08/2009.

This message was last edited by Tish on 17/08/2009.

As this seems to be the most active threads I have seen, Why not let it continue. You dont have to read it after all.I

If it stops just one poor soul getting rough justice then thats fine by me.

Seems Normans summing up appears spot on. Its clear that after years of fighting for justice some may wish to say its worthless as things will not change. Some may wish to say,  Then the I am all right Jack so stop blabbing.

To say its not suprising you lost your money seems bazare to say the least without knowing the full case.

Norman like thousands of others cant afford to take his case to court when there is little justice at the end as the noble Goodstich44 has found out. Norman should not need to afford to take his case to court for being conned and the law not their to protect

Yes Norman I am happy to take up the baton and fight for change.in the justice system  Just maybe while some a chasing fruitless cases with bent solicitors some just may listen and stop this whole farce. Yes many dont have cat in hells chance.Why dont they have a cat in hells chance?

This thread is called ROUGH JUSTICE AGAIN.  Whats the problem here. Seems many are putting excellent points of views on each side.Thought Norman was a grumpy ole so and so.Reality is he just wants answers

I.M.H.O . Of course and hopefully nothing is taken out of context.

As I said at the starting of my posting on this thread There really are not arguments for Rough Justice Again and again and again.

Normansands: with all my respect to your sitiation and opinion:

What on earth is not based on an individual basis?

And yes.... I am looking for success.... it would be terrible if not ( for me and for my clients).

Maria

I'll take your comments as being aimed at me Chimps. The post topic is excellent and if I had the time I could right pages of examples of people who have had rough Justice.  I am particularly incensed by this comment:  Some may wish to say,  Then the I am all right Jack so stop blabbing.   I would never think or say that.

 We started our fight in 2004. We paid 96,000 euros deposit on an apartment that was never built.  The building licence was revoked. we had a BG. Even so we had to have two Court cases to get our money back!!  It is not pointless taking lawyers to task either. I did and in theory I won, or at least my excellent Lawyer did who had the balls to take it on. 

Apart from my numerous posts on here and SPI, I have appeared on television (BBC News 24 with Sarah Pennells), Radio, Newspapers (Sunday Times, Evening Standard) I was also asked to go on Trevor McDonald, Watchdog and a Granada programme.    As our case was by then in process, I did not do these last three programmes.Another person and myself contacted and were contacted by other people who bought on our development and we had a 40+ strong, active group. Our lawyer and I arranged two meetings in London, where our individual situations were discussed. To this day we remain in contact with one another. I still, even yesterday, recieve PM's asking advise about our development.

By all means tell the world about the state of Spanish Justice, but Norman is twisting what is being said and I for one will not accept that. Aside from which he is achieving nothing for himself, because he will not do what anyone who wants his money back has to do. What is he waiting for? Justice?  It'll be a long time coming, even with all our  best endeavours to correct it.

For the record, we did take the gamble wen we were in a very difficult situation. My daughter was getting married 6 weeks after we had to take action against the developer and bank, and my husband had been made redundant 4 months earlier. We could not afford to loose that money . Fortunately for us, we won our case, and our costs were awarded back to us.  With a BG we should never have had to go to Court in the first place .We were one of the lucky ones but we had to take that risk in the first place.

This message was last edited by Tish on 17/08/2009.

Dear All,

thank you everyone for your posts and keeping the thread alive.

For every-one's information Norman is an early seventies OAP with a very limited pension and lost life savings to recoup, if possible, he is a trained engineer of some use, but his faculties are failing.

Throughout his working life he never achieved high salary, his idea of Maria's hourly fee as a salary would be something akin to lottery winnings.

goodstich's expenditure on legal fees he finds frightening and no doubt tish's expenditure would be even more scary to him.

His limited understanding of what has occurred to him is just that limited experience, plus what you good people provide with your posts.

He could not match goodstich and tish in providing up front money for legal fees to feed lawyers without re-mortgaging or going to his children.

His stupidity and senility limits his understanding and he has no ability to read thoughts and minds, he can only respond to posts made as he did to tish's post...

"This thread is getting reeeeeeally boring now. I think it's been done to death.

Norman, you are never going to get all the answers you want to hear. Even if you do, it changes nothing. Justice is VERY rough in Spain. Enough of us have been trying to change it. personally, I don't hear of much improvement. infact it's the contrary. I never cease to be amazed at how badly people are treated. Going on and on and on and on about it is, IMHO, pointless."

He does not even understand the meaning of IMHO.

Sorry as always, if he has got anything wrong.

Sorry tish if I did not find your post encouraging, especially the bit about contrary improvement.

Things seem to have got a bit stirred up but more useful information has emerged I think.

Thanks to all.

Regards

Norman

This message was last edited by normansands on 17/08/2009.

........c'mon on ya silly ol' git, we are all in this for the same basic reason!!!!!!!

just joking Norman .  Let's hope we can get some answers soon from somewhere?

It's over two years since I started Our Petition.  Since then I've heard from just one person - yes, just one - who has got their money back (via Bank Guarantee, but no interest).  I think this is a good indicator of the true picture, not to mention excellent forum threads like this one.  There may be others of course, who were so relieved to get the whole miserable saga over with & never want to talk about it again, but I think many would want to shout their success from the rooftops.  Of course people are winning cases, but actually receiving their monies - getting justice - is a totally different matter.

I'm working on an Open Letter to the PM, & will post it here, hopefully by tomorrow.  As Goodstich says, political intervention is crucial & until then we have to keep up the pressure.