Rough justice yet again!

No norman, we can not liken goodstichs case with my examples, as goodstich never had his chance to sell on unfortunately!

goodstich I totally agree with your comments to my post. The Winners, as I refered to them, are not coming back yet. That for me is certainly suggestive of further significant falls yet to come.

There is a small market, virtually impossible to identify any trend other than those buying to live here.

I do get the impression there are considerable numbers of people waiting for improvements in exchange rate, UK property prices and further falls in Spanish property prices, most seem to be waiting for all three.

That's good to see, but I don't expect them to be in any position to take advantage for at least a couple of years yet.

Just been catching up on the posts.

Chimps, Why are you so vengeful of the Spanish? I thought you had a place in Spain that you bought and were very happy with. What has aggrieved you?

Gillespie says

"I do get the impression there are considerable numbers of people waiting for improvements in exchange rate, UK property prices and further falls in Spanish property prices, most seem to be waiting for all three. "

May I query why  you do not include in that list a fourth and most obvious pre-requisite for many potential buyers i.e. recognise there are many out there who are now also waiting for radical improvements to the legal system, the likes of which have been well documented within this thread, before they would be willing to purchase in Spain?

I would have hoped that this was the opportunity for good professional Spanish lawyers to be dynamic, to demonstrate the courage to clean up the system from within, expose the practices at all levels that are continuing to do a grave disservice to their legal profession, and identify and develop workable solutions to eradicate those corrupt and abusive practices that we have all witnessed (and are sadly continuing to witness) in this whole sorry saga.

I have in all honesty never been asked about cleaning up the justice system by a buyer. I know many agents and none ever seem to find it an obstacle or point of sale either.

Gillespie

Spot on. However if and /or when the three click then bets would be off regarding times scales.

Each area would differ regarding supply and demand. There may be 2 m or so unsold properties and a large percentage may never get sold as they were and always will be a poor investment both financially and lifestyle.

Junk poor quality half finished deserted developments filled with squatters

Many of these properties will be involved in the legal mess called Spanish Justice. Banks will owed sh-t and be a supposed over priced asset on its balance sheets. Then lets not forget the possible thousands that have valid Bank Guarantees and will not give up the fight. When and if they get the judgement most deserve.,what then ?Back dated interest,legal fees etc Somehow if the E,U move then the piper will not be the piper thats for sure.

At the end of the day few will win but I have little hesitation that many will lose.

Goodstich44 and Norman may well have completed and say Goodstich44  is sitting on a paper profit helped in part by exchange rates.

What value is Goodstiches44 investment when the properties around are rented to s-um with barking dogs ,crap everywhere  and not paying rent or community fees. As well we know it only takes a few bad apples

Who are going to lend on some of these ghettos. What investor will want to gamble on a great supposed good price in a not so good area when justice is not there  As they say on Dragons Den .  Im Out ! it has to stack up.?

A resonable reason is that many owners completed instead of trying to fight a hopeless corrupt system and have to turn a blind eye due to the limited renters in the market. They took the choice to complete due to Hodgsons Choice. What sort of legal system is that in any E.U Country .Complete in a property that you have been legally conned, lose the lot or fight a system with little justice and risk losing massive fees like Goodstich44.

Spain may have lots of unsold property but who will want what is going to be a massive void between good and bad property when the market returns. Investment will have a very different meaning in Spain in the future where many purchased almost anything in a rising couldnt lose market.

When your three click then watch the investors try to move in. However I may be wrong but the real bargains in good areas may be few and far in between with many having ridden the storm. Where is the bottom ? Its when the buyers return just has the U,K stock market is just showing .Till then time scales are just opinions and  as they say its a small world that can change very quickly.

Parts of Spain may have filled their boots over the past few years and had one hell of a party due to corruption and greed.

I feel that in some areas (Not all) that a very big hangover may on the way.. 

Deal with how it started and was allowed to continue. ?

Lets start with the corrupt lawyers that were employed to look after the legal interest of their clients and sold out.

Dear All,

Cripes !  Chimps,

are things really that bad already, I warned and predicted it, but did not realise it had come to pass so soon, although you did forget the weed strewn dead "tropical" gardens and the muggings, plus the strangers in the pools.

Is it not then the case that those of us robbed of our deposits are really the lucky ones, compared to those suckered into completing????

I have to date lost 30% of 425k, goodstich only 30% of 70k, should he not have walked away laughing, or is that hindsight???

On a brighter note, my daughter has come back from a week in Marbella and could not find another Brit, but the place was crowded with those with Euros in their pockets from all other nationalities.

Tish, if this is right, what has maintained your interest, will you be buying again or what??

Regards

Norman

This message was last edited by normansands on 26/08/2009.

norman

I don't wish to go in to detail, but my losses are well over £40,000 so far. Nothing would make me hand that over and walk away without fighting for as long as it takes to get some sort of justice. Each to his/her own though. I don't blame anyone for making decisions that are different to mine. We have to do what is right for us.

I believe Spain will alwayd a top holiday destination for brits. It has what we want. As for buying property though?.  A disaster in so many ways for so many people, ( not all though by any means) that looks like getting far worse without urgent change from the top? 

I admire your honesty Gillespie, but I fear you may have a rude awakening when the lifestyle buyers become better informed and recognise the continuing risks so long as the legal system is not cleansed of abusive practices. Or for that matter when buyers of all persuasions wise up to Chimps' realistic but sadly pessimistic scenario that awaits those swathes of Spain where such abusive practices have resulted in a downward spiral.

By suggesting that buyers have not asked you about cleaning up the justice system to date, or implying that it does not appear to be “an obstacle at the point of sale either”, I trust you are not banking on buyers remaining in ignorant bliss to these unfortunate realities and so perpetuate the irresponsible values and actions that Maria suggests might have played a significant part in this nightmare scenario from the outset? Or perhaps you are suggesting that existing buyers are turning a blind eye to these realities (burying their heads in the sand in the hope that such injustices wont happen to them).

Buyer beware has to be the continuing message until such time as pressure is brought to bear on all professionals unwilling to support and press for the necessary changes to restore trust and accountability within all aspects of the real estate sector in Spain (lawyers included).

Let’s hope this comes sooner rather than later. Surely it’s in everyone’s interests in the longer term?

ads wrote

''Buyer beware has to be the continuing message until such time as pressure is brought to bear on all professionals unwilling to support and press for the necessary changes to restore trust and accountability within all aspects of the real estate sector in Spain (lawyers included).

Let’s hope this comes sooner rather than later. Surely it’s in everyone’s interests in the longer term?''

........so true ads. It's so obvious this is why Spain is in it's current mess, but while it's denied by those working in the industry and more importantly by those in the position to make those changes, how can things really recover that will indeed benifit everyone? (with the exception of the crooks)

Norman,

We will not buy in Spain, but may look to take advantage of the numerous properties there are to rent. My interest in the Judicial system remains as we still have an outstanding Court case and thousands of euros to recoup, as you already know.  Also, there are a number of people that we formed a group with who still have outstanding cases against the bank or developer. Having spent the last five years fighting these crooks I am interested to see the final outcome. I never thought it would take this long!!!!!

Chimps is probably one of those "investors" who has had his fingers burnt by having to complete on at least one illegal property. I am assuming this as he did not comment on my earlier post........not that he has to of course!   He made a comment in one of his earlier posts while evasively making reference to me that we got our money back with a BG after a no build situation. He's very perceptive.    His posts confuse me as he is so negative about things when he himself is a happy purchaser of Spanish property. 

As my earlier posts confirm

I love Spain and have property there which I am happy with

That fact that I may have been fortunate or perhaps not if you take into account Normans view is not the issue

The issue is why is the legal system a corrupt lottery. I may be pessimistic but what I have posted is relevent to some developments already. This as posted is reality and Spain need to wake up to this fact

Yes I am very perceptive and commited on this one issue regarding justice. .

Correct I dont reply ,only when its regarding this matter .Good luck to you however you got your money back.and no reference was made by me.  Sadly many of my freinds, the likes of Goodstich44 and Norman are not so fortunate

If I post on other threads I am sure many will see that I am very positive however on this one subject of rough justice I simply cant be positive at all. Yes very positive regarding Spain very negative regarding the corrupt legal system. Is that a problem?Is that confusing ?

 Now if anyone has anything positive to post including you Tish lets hear it because like many it would pay me see the market lifted.

Until then lets hope that with the likes of Suzie , Goodstich44 ,Maria  and the rest of us that can do our bit one day we may just get

the news many want

Norman .Please read all of my post and look for the word   SOME.  Good luck to you.

This message was last edited by Chimps on 26/08/2009.

This message was last edited by Chimps on 26/08/2009.

Dear All,

we have Justin and Susan telling us things are bad and worsening, plus others in their blogs.

we have Chimps telling us...

Each area would differ regarding supply and demand. There may be 2 m or so unsold properties and a large percentage may never get sold as they were and always will be a poor investment both financially and lifestyle.

Junk poor quality half finished deserted developments filled with squatters

At the end of the day few will win but I have little hesitation that many will lose.

What value is Goodstiches44 investment when the properties around are rented to s-um with barking dogs ,crap everywhere  and not paying rent or community fees. As well we know it only takes a few bad apples

Who are going to lend on some of these ghettos. What investor will want to gamble on a great supposed good price in a not so good area when justice is not there  As they say on Dragons Den .  Im Out ! it has to stack up.?

A resonable reason is that many owners completed instead of trying to fight a hopeless corrupt system and have to turn a blind eye due to the limited renters in the market. They took the choice to complete due to Hodgsons Choice. What sort of legal system is that in any E.U Country .Complete in a property that you have been legally conned, lose the lot or fight a system with little justice and risk losing massive fees like Goodstich44.

  what are we to make of it ???

where is the some in 2 million????

reading tish's post and link, the future looks even worse.

some, some, some what exactly?????????????

sorry Chimps that seems like a very strange contradiction, I think you need to make up your mind.

Regards

Norman

What value is Goodstiches44 investment when the properties around are rented to s-um with barking dogs ,crap everywhere  and not paying rent or community fees. As well we know it only takes a few bad apples

Who are going to lend on some of these ghettos. What investor will want to gamble on a great supposed good price in a not so good area when justice is not there  As they say on Dragons Den .  Im Out ! it has to stack up.?

A resonable reason is that many owners completed instead of trying to fight a hopeless corrupt system and have to turn a blind eye due to the limited renters in the market. They took the choice to complete due to Hodgsons Choice. What sort of legal system is that in any E.U Country .Complete in a property that you have been legally conned, lose the lot or fight a system with little justice and risk losing massive fees like Goodstich44.

This message was last edited by normansands on 26/08/2009.

This message was last edited by normansands on 26/08/2009.

Hello Norman   Not seen Justins Blog but take your word for it.

Been on the ole whiskey again. ? Another that seems confused. So let me make myself clear.

I love Spain to bits and I am happy that I have a property there. I have many Spanish friends and I like the Spanish very much.

I feel however that the law in regards to justice stinks. I have this hang us about many Spanish solicitors that  have allowed this corruption to go on. Corruption so big that the courts cant or maybe not willing to deal with it.

Not willing so that many like you cant afford to fight.will have to give up.Not willing so those like Goodstich44 can be treated in such a way and suffer further losses.

Not willing to maybe buy time hoping for the return of the market to save their skins.

No I am not looking to buy another property and you ask.What maintains my interest .? Answer Law and Corruption as I own property and have many friends who have been conned.I have friends that have lost the lot. People like you Norman. I think that is very wrong Norman.

The senario with some not all of the areas and developments will in my opinion end up as I have stated.  If your in Spain Norman I will show you some of them.I will show you some areas and developments that may fair alot better.

Norman. I dont need to make up my mind nor do I need anyone suggesting that I hate the Spanish( That is insulting and a real shame to post on such a popular thread)

This is an excellent forum. This is an ideal platform to get the good and the bad issues over. There are 3 people here being Goodstich44/Suzie and Maria. They know the good parts and they fully understand the rot that needs sorting

There have been some excellent posts from Smiley etc including those from Estate Agents who are all on the side of supporting the fight against rough justice

Now hopefully there will be no more confusion and mis-understandings of my reasons to post.

Now this is very simple. If  Goodstich44/Suzie or Maria have any issues that they feel I should not support this cause/fight them let me know and I will withdraw it.

What is going on here regarding the last few postings regarding me I havent a clue. Norman please read all of my posting here so you wont pick out parts and that way you may find that I am not contradicting myself nor hopefully is it confusing

Think Tish has already mentioned this to you before.

KInd Regards to you Norman

Chimps,

Like many others here I have nothing positive to say about Spain. Is there anything? If so, I must have blinked and missed it.  Positiveness will come in the form of news about the conned people getting their money back from crooked developers and corrupt Lawyers.

Just for the record, the injustice issue is bigger and goes much further than "Suzie, Goodstich or Maria."  We all have a voice.

Chimps, you are obviously a very conscientious person.  You have your "lot", as they say, but still want to further the cause of those who have met nothing but injustice.  Quite rightly so.

Tish, there are many positive things about Spain - as many people already living there will tell you.  But you must know that, because you state that you may "look to take advantage of the numerous properties there are to rent".

Overall, it may be that the percentage of those dealt abusive and corrupt blows under the current system in Spain is actually alot lower than those who are content and happy with their lot.  That doesn't lessen or demean the losses of those who have suffered in any way, but it cannot be ignored.

I read this thread and its posts with interest, but can't help thinking that there will never be an answer here - as you all know - and it's filled with people just looking for answers that they've already received!

Maybe the best thing to do is to start up a thread entitled "IF you want justice in Spain, look in here" and then post all the links to people who have obtained that/or possibly on their way to that/or are just looking for that.

Maybe that would direct people who need the advice to the right place!!

Jan, Foreigners that are happy with their lot in Spain may well be in the majority, but there are tens of thousands who are not for many  varied reasons.

The fact that there are so many who are victims of the corruption of off-plan purchases in particular, where the sum of money involved is tens of millions of euros ,is disgraceful enough.  The fact that the judicial system  does not uphold the laws of their land  or implement those laws is outrageous and as Spain is part of the EU, it should be held accountable for it's actions and injustices. 

There are many positive things about Spain but the bad outweighs the good as far as I am concerned. WHEN or IF Spain ever gets it's act together, then I'm sure many people will buy again. Hopefully they will be forewarned and forearmed.

We love the area of Spain that we have stayed at 9 times over the last five years...but we would never buy a property there. Once bitten...

Dear me.  After reading some of these posts I'm about ready to go and top myself.

Hang on, but I'm happy in Spain.  My house purchase went through fine.  I have great neighbours.  I love the food, the Spanish people, the way of life the.....oh well, you get my drift.

No positive things?  Bloody hundreds.  Including the weather compared to UK it's bloody brilliant.  My lawyers and builders were very  professional throughout on my new property, nothing underhand, nothing even slightly dodgy.  To say there's nothing positive about Spain and then say you're going to rent is a bit of a contradiction in terms.  If you hate it so much, why not go to Italy, or Cyprus, or Cornwall?

Like many others ?  Well, maybe it's time for the silent majority to stand up and be counted.  There are thousands of Brits living around my area and I have never heard anyone of them say anything bad about the way their purchase went through.  Brits, Germans, Dutch, Swedes, Icelandic, Spanish....a real melting pot, the only common ground is that they all, and I mean all, seem extremely happy with their purchase (OK, Brits being Brits they will always find something to complain about) and chat, enjoy their lives in Spain, socialise at each others homes or in the excellent value restaurants in the vicinity and are really happy with their lot.  As I am.

And that's the last time I'm even going to open this thread because it's depressing the hell out of me.

No no no Pitby.

You are missing the point to this thread entirely. Rough justice has prevailed, continues to prevail and will continue until those who seek change to the justice system are seriously listened to. It's essential that all who have been abused in this way  retain their voice to forewarn other potential buyers of the continuing abuses within a legal system that has decimated peoples lives. They have every right to continue voicing their opinions and bringing those alongside who are prepared to listen, to make suggestions, to educate those of us who were unfamiliar with the many tactics being employed by developers, lawyers, courts, etc. To understand the legal system as it stands now, to be supported by the likes of Maria who is educating us all, whilst endeavouring to give hope to those who bravely continue with the battle, and thus alleviate at least some of the stress as everyone affected battles for justice.

All of this information is essential so that others cannot fall into the same trap, but equally important is the need to learn. To come alongside and acknowledge that major problems exist within the real estate sector, to support those desperate for change. All those turning a blind eye to this, or suggesting that change will never come, do those good professionals within the Spanish legal system (and the wider real estate sector) who recognise change is necessary, a complete disservice.

No the message of buyer beware has to be brought to the forefront of the argument, no matter how uncomfortable it may be to those who would prefer they disappear to another thread. This has probably been one of the most useful informative threads I have personally read on the matter, the debate (intellectual at times) that rages is essential to comprehend the different perspectives, so please don't suggest that the vehicle that helps us and educates us be removed or moved to yet another thread. Just look at the numbers of views on this thread and that will give you some appreciation of its importance.

The best way to help those affected now is to support the movement for change. To encourage those fighting an uphill battle and recognise that their endeavours will ultimately benefit all in the future.

Pitby and Bobaol, you seem to suggest that by supporting this requirement that this compromises those who have positive things to say about Spain. Not so. If anything, those not willing to push for change, those who only look to their own personal circumstance (and possibly comfortable circumstance at that) in preference to facing up to the realities that abuse is continuing as we speak, are the ones compromising those seeking a solution to this nightmare.

This should not be a divisive debate but one where we should work together

Here speaks a naive soul who lives in hope that the nightmare will eventually be resolved. Sorry yet again to rant........

 p.s. Bobaol , I'm happy that you're happy in Spain but please don't ignore that there are some painful realities that need addressing right now, and turning away from this thread won't make them disappear, more's the pity!!!

This message was last edited by ads on 26/08/2009.

Someone used the "I'm alright Jack" phrase inappropriately (imo) several posts ago. Well if that someone wants to repeat that phrase, it would be most appropriate if were directed at bobaol.  Thank goodness he will not be coming back here, his post highlights the type of mindset of  the people we are up against.

ads said

''Pitby and Bobaol, you seem to suggest that by supporting this requirement that this compromises those who have positive things to say about Spain. Not so. If anything, those not willing to push for change, those who only look to their own personal circumstance (and possibly comfortable circumstance at that) in preference to facing up to the realities that abuse is continuing as we speak, are the ones compromising those seeking a solution to this nightmare.''

well said ads.

I used to fight a lonely battle against this attitude a few years back until joined by a few others who had suffered the same injustice as me. Now the truth is there for all to see, and many have joined the fight for justice, those not willing to really support us in our push for change because ''they are alright jack'' are indeed doing nothing to help the cause of the thousands of decent people cheated, and worse still, do nothing to help force change for the good that would benifit everyone apart from the crooks.

How anyone can say ''we know loads who are happy, so what's your problem'' is a mystery to me when it's so obvious that the current mess Spains property industry is in is largly due to the changes we all know are so badly needed, not just for justice for the thousands cheated, but for everyone involved in the Spanish property industry. Is anyone really happy to know so many have been so badly treated, and so much of Spain's coastline is ruined, that alone the reputation that's driving potential buyers away. I really feel pressure from from those happy, sad, or in between is the only way forward, but that's a choice for individuals. It would indeed be nice to see support from all sides.