Rough justice yet again!

Dear All,

Ads has summed things up rather well but unfortunately still follows the same old ritual of blaming the developer first when seeking change.

Why am I alone in seeing him as a simple business man exploiting the system, simply because it has proved so very exploitable and profitable????????????????????????????

WHO MAKES IT ALL POSSIBLE??????

WHO SIGNED THE RIDICULOUS CONTRACT?????????????

WHO RELEASED THE FINDS FROM THEIR CLIENT ACCOUNT???????????

THE LAWYER...........THE LAWYER.......THE LAWYER

WHO IS TO BLAME????????????

THE LAWYER...........THE LAWYER.......THE LAWYER

WHO KNOWS THE STATE OF THE SPANISH JUDICIARY?????????

THE LAWYER...........THE LAWYER.......THE LAWYER

Maria says that there are "technical" reasons why this criminal cannot be directly attacked, it is first necessary to go through the rigmarole that goodstich and others have been through, ad infinitum.

Until these criminals are put in the dock, even if it is only their union dock, there will be no change in my judgement.

Criticism on this thread will never be enough, we need some severe penalties imposed by their peers and judges and what is the likelihood of that????????

As far as the Suzie/Maria thing goes how can one comment without knowing the full details??????

Let us hope they sort it.

Regards

Norman

I do agree Norman that lawyers have to be accountable within the legal system, but perhaps I didn't make that clear within my general reference re lawyers' malpractice being a form of abuse.

Maria has already made reference in the past to lawyers having some form of liability insurance to cover this eventuality, presumably to cover themselves where malpractice has been proven (?), but as you say she countered it by suggesting that as the law stands now in Spain the client would ultimately have to go through the long legal route for return of monies first anyway, before being able to take the originating lawyer to court. If  I understand you correctly however, you are not only looking for  monetary compensation via this long legal route described, but criminal charges against the lawyer, is that correct?

What we have to understand maybe is that unfortunately the legal system to date has indirectly supported these malpractices over a long period of time (as has been suggested by others within this thread where they made reference to Spaniards in the main being content with the status quo, without realising perhaps how vulnerable they were when things go significantly wrong in this way) and until now has probably been accepted as the norm. Without wishing to re-start the debate on that score, those now looking for legal retribution as you suggest against the lawyers and given the background to this scenario, will have a long time to wait I suspect before this will be possible, if at all. Perhaps Suzie can comment whether her petition addresses the suggestion for lawyers to be made accountable in this way.

But in the interim who knows, maybe the EU will indirectly stamp out this malpractice via various monetary means at their disposal until such time as change is forthcoming.

That is no consolation however for the likes of those who wish the lawyers to be made ultimately accountable. Perhaps Maria (or other lawyers on this forum who recognise the need for change) could suggest to the forum how accountability could be better addressed and expediated through the Spanish legal system, in order to cleanse the bad apples from the barrel ........... or perhaps this is perceived as a natural evolution to change, and that those who have perpetrated in the past will never be made accountable?

Ads,

My husband & I have taken action against the Lawyer who signed our purchase contract, with many illegal clauses, who handed 96,000euros over to the developer having told us it would be kept in a client account. My husband has a financial background having worked for two international banks as Finance Director and Company Secretary respectively. He was/is fully knowledgeable about BG's, etc ,etc.  Even though we asked all the right questions AND got the answers both verbally and in writing from the Law firm, we were completely let down by them. They were pals with the developer and their lawyer.

 Having won our court case to get our deposit repaid to us , our new Lawyer set about suing our original Lawyer.  We won that case too. The Law firm  appealed the judges verdict that they were negligent in their duties and had to repay us the balance of the 7,500 euros we paid them upfront. I find it amazing that a big law firm can refute a Judges decision about their negligence. Anyway we are still waiting for the appeal case!! 

"I find it amazing that a big law firm can refute a Judges decision about their negligence. Anyway we are still waiting for the appeal case!!  "

No doubt they are playing the system to delay which appears to be the norm these days.

How long has it taken for you to reach this point and have you actually had your original deposit monies returned to you yet? If so did you have to enact an enforcement order? Did you have a legal BG in place?

Good luck with your battle. Perhaps when you win the appeal (ever the optimist) it will act as testimony to others that these things are possible given a good lawyer to represent you.

Thanks for sharing that.

We did have a BG, albeit delivered late when the lawyer found out the property would not be built.  Again the lawyers lied to us. They told us our deposit would be covered by a BG.  For 15 months it was not. They knew that and let it happen.....because they were buddies with the developer! The developer had to pay several million euros to the bank to get a BG for the affected depositers. The bank initially did not give a BG because they already knew there was a problem with the building licence  The BG was post dated by almost 18 months. We were not prepared to wait that long so we took the bank to Court after they refused to pay out. We received  deposit + interest + legal fees .  

The whole process of getting our deposit back to this date has been just over 4 years.

Thanks Tish.

I really admire your resolve in this matter and let's hope that this specific knowledge helps others in a similar situation.

An unnecessary comment from Lawbird on a recent blog.  No wonder Maria was upset!

http://belegal.com/blog-by-antonio-flores/2009/08/

Hello,

My lawyer did not ever secure a bank gaurentee,

 I agreed 9% in Writing to cover all costs on top of the purchase price, he now wants much more, there is no spanish norgage and no complications. It is an ordinary sale with no morgage, can anyone advise.

Tom...

Hi Ossie,

You will probably get a more accurate answer if you put your question on the "Spanish Mortgages" thread on the "Buying a property" section.   I'm sure someone there will be able to give you fairly accurate costs in buying a property 

 Forgot to add, I know you don't need a mortgage, but you can find out what other costs will be incurred. I know there is 7% tax on purchase + notary fee + land registry fee. It's said to allow approx 10% of purchase price for fees.
 

Dear All,

it seems to me that every Spanish lawyer treats the client with utter contempt if they are involved in any way with developers, in addition they have the Spanish endemic acceptance of corruption as the norm. They had complete and in depth knowledge of all the corrupt practices that were and still are prevalent. They did nothing and are guilty for that alone.

Until they are held accountable nothing will change.

A contract for a small part of a project is meaningless and worthless, the brochure with all the facilities must be incorporated directly into any off-plan contract for the contract to be of any value.

Tish's experience is of great value but it needs to be repeated and reinforced, how many people have changed lawyers and yet taken no action against the previous outfit?????

Things would change overnight if the insurers pockets were hurt.

Somehow emphasis needs to be directed at these outrageous criminals.

Regards

Norman

This message was last edited by normansands on 31/08/2009.

Dear Ads

If a crime can be proved, a criminal procedure is available. Of course lawyers also committ crimes.

If a crime cannot be proved, a civil liability procedure is always possible. Of course lawyers can also committ negligencies.

Hope this answers your questions.

Normansands:

Again, I just can say you are right , corruption of those who are depositories of your trust and guardians of  people´s interest is deplorable.

Anyway.. I do not want to go further with my words. I think I have already said enough.

 I will see you all  in a  different thread. I thik it is time to move ahead.

Best regards,

Maria

Dear Maria,

thank you once again, whilst I am agreeable to follow goodstich's lead it can only be at a cost level similar to Tish's legal expenses.

Additionally I wish to take action against the lawyers I hold responsible for handing over my money without proper safeguards in place.

Now I do not want to wait for the result of any action against the developer, so can the "technical difficulties" be overcome.

Further more, I believe that we should as a group, promote a new off-plan contract that ensures every item in the brochure is specifically part of the contract without recourse to general consumer legislation.

At the moment whoever you complain to and whatever their legal knowledge, they always ask, without fail, to see the contract before giving an opinion, so the contract is paramount and must obviously be the right one, not the deficient one currently in use.

thanks again.

Regards

Norman 

http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/publicity-contract.aspx

http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/sample-contract.aspx

Thank you again Maria,

The Casares del Sol contract translation refers to urban residential, no mention of closed holiday complex as in the brochure, not much like the model contract either.

Negligence on the part of the lawyer as a minimum???

How can we achieve change where the lawyer acts for the developer not us???

More questions.............

Regards Norman

Norman., Norman.....  I said I was leaving the thread an you do not let me go  ( please read with a smile).

Ok, please have comments below in bold green :

Thank you again Maria,

The Casares del Sol contract translation refers to urban residential, no mention of closed holiday complex as in the brochure, not much like the model contract either. The brochure is part of the contract.. why do you want it to be expressed in the contract again? 

Negligence on the part of the lawyer as a minimum??? I cannot see negligency there: you can ask for the full contractual information to be provided and if not, you can cancel the contract.

How can we achieve change where the lawyer acts for the developer not us??? Communicate it to Law Society ( provintial and National): I am sure they will take good care of it.

More questions.............

Having observed the the past few days post where posting references have clearly been altered

Snide remarks continuing which has resulted in what I consider valued potential support dying away.Alongside insults about Spain itself having nothing of value I withdraw any futher support from this thread.

Spain needs it laws changing thats all.

There are goings on here that I want no part of.

Suzie. I have had a reply from Mr Brown and guess what he is to busy. Please P/M me as I will support you all I can

Please get together with Maria as I am sure both of you wouldnt offened each other intentionally

Goodstich44. I wish you all the very best in your cause

Norman. Really wish you all the best in your personal fight.

Will no doubt meet on other threads. 

My kind regards to you.

NO posting references have been altered "Chimps"!  Just a different reference.  Perhaps you could  enlighten us if you know differently. 

As I've said before, I cannot see the credibility of you supporting petitions or writing to GB, about malpractice in Spain if you are not personally affected by the problems.  Surely, if you have friends affected it would be more beneficial to the petition if they wrote themselves of their experiences. Maybe you have more than one property  and you have a problem with one of them that you are saying nothing about?  Just a thought.

How would the poster know if postings have been altered or not.?

Sorry for joining the support group and as is said membership is for the selected few.

Hi Tish,

I sent my support and comments, even though I don't have a problem, I am sure that a petition is free to anybody who is appalled by the corruption that is going on and the more people who do so the better. After all you don't have to have breast cancer to support the fundraising events etc. do you?  You actually don't have the right to tell anybody not to join a petition if they want to.

Kathy

Hi again,

forgot to add I don't normally agree with a lot of Norman's posts, (is it because he gets a little bit near to the truth for our liking) but I have definitely since retiring to my apartment begun to think along the lines that enclosed holiday complex  - NOT COMMUNITY LIVING - is now correct description of where I live.

Kathy