Rough justice yet again!

Chimps thanks for your positive statements... we always need to be realistically positive as there is much good to be obtained out of the bad things.... always in life.

It is being very intensive but very rewarding and I have with me the most excellent team of the world!

Chimps

quite agree. This is a very positive thread now, with all pulling in the same direction I feel. The work of those like Suzie and Maria and Justin and team of course is indeed a massive help for not only all of us wronged, but to inform anyone of the potential problems they may face while trying to buy in Spain. I  would like to say thank you and well done to all others who are contributing such useful and supportive info'.

If we can hopefully keep the thread active, then hopefully more will contact their own mp's and mep's, more will join Suzie's petition, more will be warned about the dangers, more will find good lawyers, and fewer good people will be cheated in future. Anyone doing their homework should find this site, and that can only be a good think for all those on the right side of justice!!

I have all but given up hope of justice several times in the last few years, but the work of those trying to bring about change and the support for those wronged has made me bounce back even more determined to see this through to a conclusion based on common sense and right and wrong.

We still have a long way to go before many of us get the justice we deserve, but it's not going to happen by sitting back and saying ''this is Spain''!!!  The laws are there, I would like to think that those who can make changes in Spain are at last realising that corruption, lack of regulation, lack of implementing law, poor/slow justice are most to blame for the situation now. I  feel if those contributing to this forum can make that picture any clearer then it must be a step in the right direction.

Maria

You are welcome and yes you must have a very good team indeed

Goodstich44 . Well everything has to start somewhere ?The ingredients are here .Lets help Suzie make a cake.      

Chimps

Suzie's already made a pretty good cake, the problem's finding someone with an appetite to swallow it!!

Something all of us can do.  I think GB is back from his holiday on the 21st.  It would be great if as many people as possible could write to him before the end of this week, insisting that our petition is responded to & acted upon forthwith.  I know it's a pain, when so many have taken the time to add detailed comments to the petition, but if enough of us write together over the next day or two it may make a difference.  Sorry to have to ask this.  Just a few lines in your own words, straight to the point, and don't forget to name the Spanish Property Scandal Petition.  This has now turned into an added issue of not addressing our petition, whether or not it is acted upon.  The full address:

The Rt. Hon. Gordon Brown MP

10 Downing Street, London SW1A 2AA

I did mull over delivering the open letter as Goodstich suggested  but thought it best to take the conventional route of recorded delivery.  So much the better if you can do this too, and let me know (in confidence of course) so that I have an idea of how many have written to him. 

Good luck Suzie! I hope many will make your company.

I need to add NOVOHOGAR to the list of " good payers"

Goodstich 44

Have you heard of force feeding .Ram this damn cake down their bloody throats if we have too.

Suzie. Thats the least we can do.  Mine is Its on its way.

Goodstich 44.Have you heard of force feeding .Ram this damn cake down their bloody  throats if we have too.

Suzie. Thats the least we can do.; Mine is Its on its way. Recorded delivery

I know this sounds obvious but thought I should forewarn. I presume that anyone following the legal BG route will have first checked to see that they have a valid Bank Guarantee as some have not been recognised in Spain. Another illegal tactic used by developers. A good lawyer should be able to check this out for you from the outset, presumably without incurring charges?

I wanted to comment regarding the cost of my Group of Investors legal fees raised by Norman Sands for taking our developer to court. We sued them for Breach of Contract for Delays, changes to Plans/Specification, Quality issues etc beginning in 2006.

Our Group action consisted of 14 off plan properties meaning that we had 14 Contracts. Our second firm of lawyers originally advised us to claim against our Bank Guarantees. Sadly most of us either hadn’t received any guarantee or only had partial ones for deposits paid. The cost for this procedure should have cost us in the Region of €2,000 per contract.

Eventually, we all agreed to take direct Court Action as the developer showed no interest in cancelling our contracts via the Bureaux Fax route. The lawyers Fees where based on €10,000 plus Vat per Contract. We also had to pay for an Architect/Surveyor report €6,000 and Court Barrister Fees at €500 a claimant, around €130,000 in total. It was at the time and  still is a ridiculous amount of money to carry out what was considered to be a straight forward claim.

We had interviewed 5 lawyers before selecting the Firm we used and their quotations were loosely based on Malaga lawyers scale rates that were similar to what we eventually paid.

Shortly before the final Court Trial Date in 2008 the developer requested meetings with us individually to try to negotiate settlements. The developer had on several occasions declared that they were about to go Bankrupt and that any offer would be based on discounts off the purchase price rather than refunds! Most investors agreed settlements but none received direct refunds but some multiple investors did negotiate a deal to hand back a property with a large penalty and to complete on the other one. 

It was very much a compromise deal that most of us were very reluctant to agree to due to the veiled threat of losing everything!!

In retrospect, one thing that we all agreed upon was that we the Investors had all contributed to our own dreadful predicament. In spite of suffering very badly at the hands of the likes of Viva Estates, Lex Marbella Lawyers and Grupo GPS Mairena Developers we had to accept some level of responsibility.

How could such a Group of reasonably Intelligent people be so naïve about the real world of buying Off Plan in Spain.

Whatever could have gone wrong did go wrong and to make matters worse, when we thought we were about to win in Court the Developer played their Joker’s card.

Goodstich/ Norman you have both suffered greatly and for a number of years by all accounts just like thousands of other investors who in the most part have suffered in silence. I think would be a very useful exercise for Justin to put together a Survey Questionnaire that highlights which Investors have Won or lost their cases and if they did win, did they actually get paid out by their Developer?

By the way Norman, I’ve read with interest the exchanges you’ve had with Smiley. Knowing that you have at least some respect for some of our exchanges, I’d like to offer support for him. I’ve known Smiley both personally and through this great EOS Forum for a number of years and I have a great deal of respect for him both as a person and a business man. He’s just about the most knowledgeable Financial Services individual I’ve come across on the Costa Del Sol and I would say that his integrity is without question. He’s a consummate professional in his field and always offers his “Best Advice “ freely to anyone he comes across.

He's Definitely one of the good guys in my Opinion…………

Hi Mike,

Your post was most interesting.

You  introduced your group of 14  as "Investors".  Do you think that you paid such high legal fees because you were "Investors"?  In my  experience, it appears that the "Judicial" powers in Spain regard "Investors/Investment"  as a dirty word, (except it wasn't when the REA's/developers were persuading people to "invest" in not only one but two or three properties!) and treat them with disdain. In fact I've heard many times, that Judges have found against people because they were deemed to be only in it for monetary gain   .(If my memory serves me correctly, this was one of the arguments Suzie faced in her Court case.)  I've always argued, why should investors be treated any differently to "non- investors" when things went badly wrong because of non-builds or illegalities etc?

No wonder Norman was frightened off litigation reading about your fees! 

Hi Tish,

Youve made a very good observation.

I did actually write the word "Owners" to begin with instead of "Investors" as I suppose until youve completed your purchase youre labelled as either "Contract to Buy Holders" or Investors when purchasing off plan? I don't think our lawyer stated the word investors that strongly in his 29 page court submission!

Yes, The lawyers fees where scandalous but I believed at the time that the charges had been calculated to include discounts for a group action. Can you believe that a litigation lawyer that Lex Marbella introduced us to quoted €30,000 for an individual property if the case went to Full Trial!!

Hi Mike,

Those figures are scary!! 

My husband & I joined forces with one other.  As our cases were identical, our Lawyer only had to cover the ground once.  Is Lex Marbella  one of the big(ger) Law firms or are they the developers?  Your lawyers were probably of the same ilk as the Marbella law firm we have a case against. ( and won!) They've appealed even though they were deemed to be negligent in their duties by the Judge, especially as we were foreigners and depended on (and paid for) their expertise.

Mr & Mrs Chips & Junior,

Great to see your letter to the PM.  Let's hope that many of us can make the effort to do this.  And actually doing something constructive about this mess really helps in coping with it.  Best, Suzanne

Dear Mike and all,

thanks for the input I am personally really pleased you have joined in.

As has been said we (the losers) are all on the same side, though apparently with different colours, my colour changes from time to time and is sometimes even a true colour whatever that is.

As to Smiley, I can only accept what you say as.......

"By the way Norman, I’ve read with interest the exchanges you’ve had with Smiley. Knowing that you have at least some respect for some of our exchanges, I’d like to offer support for him. I’ve known Smiley both personally and through this great EOS Forum for a number of years and I have a great deal of respect for him both as a person and a business man. He’s just about the most knowledgeable Financial Services individual I’ve come across on the Costa Del Sol and I would say that his integrity is without question. He’s a consummate professional in his field and always offers his “Best Advice “ freely to anyone he comes across.
 

He's Definitely one of the good guys in my Opinion………

Unfortunately the problem with him remains and is even more of a contradiction with your endorsement.

I note that you were persuaded to accept that as investors you were less than completely diligent.

How diligent you have to be to be safe is itself something of a question, since the Arsenal Football Club were supposed to have spent £50,000 on a special due diligence report on the unbuilt Casares del Sol Suites development and it's developer Interlaken.

We have been criticised for being brainless dolts suffering from sheer stupidity who did not learn the language or the customs before attempting to invest in a simple holiday home. No better in fact than the notorious "Rusty Nail" people.

Yet goodstich managed a more than respectable 100% gain at one stage.

We accepted the brochure as a factual specification which has now been endorsed by Maria - "everything promised must be provided".

Smiley says that everyone knows it is a "million miles away from what you will get from an off-plan purchase"

The puzzle is why did you ignore his best advice and go ahead??????

Any offers please from a good competent lawyer at tish's rates??????

Thank you everyone.

Regards

Norman

This message was last edited by normansands on 21/08/2009.

"everything promised must be provided"

Yes, indeed: publicity has been considered as part of the Contract by the Supreme Court since 1977.

http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/publicity-contract.aspx

Norman,

I didn't seek or receive any Buying advice from Smiley, I purchased off plan at the beginning of 2004 and didn't even know of him then! My  comments about Smiley's Best advice relates to his advice given in his Specialist Field as a Mortgage Broker. If you take the time to read a cross section of his posts over the years I feel your opinion of him will change.

He has a great gift for the written word and he always states things as he sees them, even when it hurts! Without doubt he is one of the great Contributors on EOS.

miket

am I right in saying you are in property sales and are heaping loads of praise on smiley who happens to be a mortgage broker,?This does sound rather like ''you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours''  I can't help feeling you are both using this well read thread as a thinly disguised sales pitch, along with one or two others?  If while doing this you are also helping to promote the good guys and steer people away from crooks that's fair enough, but I think it should be clear if you have a commercial motive also, as it must influence your posts.

Goodstitch,

I can categorically say that you are 100% wrong about your assumptions but you have of course every right to ask the question.

I do do a little bit of property management at the development where I live which is more of a hobby to keep me busy. I actually don't charge any of the owners whove use my site to advertise their properties and have never received a fee.

A fair number of my postings on EOS have been in response to Investors questions about how the Court process works and how my Action Group worked our way through the legal process. I've answered hundreds of emails from concerned investors regarding their own problems with their developers, Agents and lawyers etc. Most of my correspondence has been carried out away from the EOS forum as many people don't like to air their problems through the forums.

Here on the Costa Del Sol there are many people who survive and thrive offering very poor services to often Absent owners who depend on the honesty and integrity of the Service Providors.

If I come accross any Individual or Company who deserves my recommendation then I offer it Freely !!