Rough justice yet again!

Dear All,

the prognosis is not good, but like goodstich, Bobaol and Pitby and many others I have not forgotten why I wanted to buy in SPAIN.

I have said it before and say it again, Bobaol has a tale to tell but is reluctant to detail his initial failure and it's successful reversal, I am keenly interested to know that if I am awarded my deposit back, where and how should I seek success as Bobaol has done.

we would not be on this forum if we did not retain a considerable interest and a hope for the future.

I never ever wanted to buy an ordinary home in Spain, have Spanish neighbours, learn the language and live a Spanish lifestyle.

I only wanted a holiday home in the sun, on a holiday complex with every possible holiday facility exactly as promised in the brochure and sales pitch.

The Spanish may well be wonderful people and it can be a pleasant experience to be treated well on a tourist outing outside the holiday complex.

The shock was to be offered a few under-sized, badly built rooms on an urbanisation complete with long term tenants or owners and their accursed dogs, scrap cars etc.

I regard these urbanisations as what they are, council estates with a pool instead of a playground, absolutely NO THANK YOU.

Chimps described the problems extremely well and does not deny the trends, but offers to show me SOME places that are better.

I value that and all contributions including some of the traders, if the best happens I shall be contacting them all for help, but not to seek a property on even a quiet well run council estate, no thank you.

I also very much value tish's and all other contributors when they offer experience, advice and warnings.

THAT IS WHAT THE FORUM IS FOR NOT A SPIN CENTRE FOR OR AGAINST.

Regards and thanks to all.

Norman

Tish

couldn't agree more. It's almost unbelievable that despite all the posts we have made explaining the problems faced, some are still to damned selfish to even open their eyes to face the truth, that alone support us. I realised long ago that was the case, but I still find it shocking when I see that attitude after all we have been through. I can only conclude this is the only way some can deal with a horrible situation, they just look away because it's easier.

Never mind though, that's their choice, there are an ever growing band of people who can face facts and are supporting those wronged in any way they can. They are the one's who will help force much needed change, and their strength makes the fight for what's right all the more worthwhile. 

''Pitby and Bobaol, you seem to suggest that by supporting this requirement that this compromises those who have positive things to say about Spain." 

Ads, don't put words in my mouth please.  Read my post again. 

And Goodstitch I hope you are not referring to me when you are talking about selfish people.  Nobody on this forum has a right to judge me or anybody else in any way whatsoever.  You have no idea of what support I give to any cause at all.  And believe it or not, corruption in the real estate sector in Spain isn't the only cause out there that needs support.

I merely suggested that this thread doesn't contain any answers for anybody - it would serve others who are looking to avoid being conned to start a new thread with posts from those who have advice to offer, action that has been taken, cases to follow.

Pitby, there is no need to start another thread. This thread started by goodstitch is about "Rough Justice" and we are discussing the repercussions of it. I am a victim of it and so to all intents and purposes, can justify my posts here. There are thousands of historic posts on how to avoid the pitfalls. This thread is not about that.

Just to add, there are no answers. Norman Sands will never get the answers he is looking for, as I have already said to him. It hasn't happened. There is no magic formula. The best lawyer in Spain cannot get justice if the Judge of the day does not implement the laws that are there to protect people like Goodstich and Norman.   The corruption starts at the top and works down.

Pitby - your comment:' ..I merely suggested that this thread doesn't contain any answers for anybody - it would serve others who are looking to avoid being conned to start a new thread with posts from those who have advice to offer, action that has been taken, cases to follow' is below the belt & unacceptable.

Action taken:

Petition to British Prime Minister March 2009

Petition personally taken to EU Brussels March 2009

Petition accepted by EU July 2009

Open Letter to PM August 2009

Many individual letters to MPs/MEPs as noted on this thread

Continuing liaison with Law Society in England regarding the legal services many of us have experienced in Spain

Cases to follow - clearly on thread

www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

Dear All,

I am a little puzzled at how owning a worthless, unsaleable property in Spain can be described as being comfortable.

Most especially if you have a large and expensive negative equity mortgage to pay.

Given that construction is generally poor with regular maintenance issues, community charges and other standing charges to pay the only comfort available is if you can afford to occupy it year round and make the best of things.

Even Chimps with his enthusiasm would like some positive spin to lift his value above zero.

I suppose it is all perspective and the market has made fools of everyone.

Regards

Norman

Absolutely below the belt Suzie!

What exactly is below the belt or unacceptable about my comment???

Pitby

Have you no idea what many of us are going through, or how much work Suzie and others are doing to force the much needed change that will help all cheated and in the long run everyone else!!

There are many good people on this thread doing their best to help those wronged. Maria is giving good advice and others are sharing experiences that are a great help.  If you can at least try and understand our situations then at least you will show you support those wronged in the long fight for justice.

Pitby - I said why in my last post & really can't put it any plainer.

A interesting press release here which refers to our petition & talks about - to quote their own words - '...the lousy image problem of Spanish lawyers...'.    http://www.prfire.co.uk/press-release/advoco-expands-and-asks-902.html

I've never had any contact with any of the people concerned, so it's good to see that Our Petition has a voice of its own.  Rather, just over 900 voices to date.

Before I'm accused of 'lawyer bashing' - again - just wanted to add that it's a fact that several contributors to this thread have helped others in finding a reputable & successful lawyer/litigator with integrity & respect for their profession.  

We know of Maria's success and how committed she is.  Lawyers of Spain/Lawbird have also had recent success in collecting over 2.5M Euros for clients http://belegal.com/blog-by-antonio-flores/category/litigation/   so I am not tarring all lawyers in Spain with the same brush. 

Pitby . You Posted

Chimps, you are obviously a very conscientious person.  You have your "lot", as they say, but still want to further the cause of those who have met nothing but injustice.  Quite rightly so.

"Thank you for that and as Goodstich44 has mentioned that it needs is support from both sides."

You may or may not be more fortunate but reality is that you or I could have been Goodstich44 .

Fully understand that one comment may have ruffled a few feathers as of course many of us love Spain.

Simply put I have one interest. Rough Justice.and the fact that unlike you or I has ruined lives. There is no real problem because as posted another thread could be started showing how to avoid the pitfalls.

I will start the first post.   Advice 1    . Find a good solicitor thats going to look after you interest at all times. When you find one send in your reply then we can go to stage 2.  Then wait. Then wait.Then wait.

Hope I am not confusing anyone here .Putting positive and negative on one page. Norman ?

Where have I ever said that I don't empathise with those who have been blatantly conned by unlawful, unscrupulous, thieving entities, be they lawyers, developers, banks, bricklayers or milkmen????

Why do you think I have no idea of what many of you are going through, as Goodstitch put it?  Do you know me?  Just because I am happy with my purchase doesn't make me less understanding of this cause or the causes of those in the UAE or Cyprus or many other places in the world who are fighting for their money stolen from them in the real estate markets!

I just commended Chimps for his support and responded to Tish when she said "I have nothing positive to say about Spain. Is there anything? If so, I must have blinked and missed it".

When I suggested a new thread it was to help - eg you could ask Justin to place a dedicated subject on the main forum board, like the one for Spanish Lawyers or Spanish Banks, wherein you could post the link to the Spanish property scandal petition and other info, etc., and it wouldn't get swallowed up on this thread - where one has to wade through pages and pages of discussion!!

I've said nothing "below the belt or unacceptable".  Obviously, only the chosen few are allowed to express an opinion on this thread!! 

And on that note, I think I'll join Bobaol!  You'll all be elated to note I won't be back on this thread!!

Sadly pitby this is a common end to all threads of this type.

Those who have been innocently or foolishly parted from their money will never be able to come to terms with those who wish to buy or live in Spain.

The empathy has been over done, the protestations have been voiced a thousand times, many good posters have been vigorously influenced by the opinions of a few.

Many forums are now just a stomping ground for the enraged and bitter. This is one of the few where it is just about kept in proportion, but occasionally becomes way out of balance.

I would say everyone on EoS has displayed sympathy for the victims at one time or another, but it does get tiresome when we are expected to do so everytime we discuss something as interesting as the justice system.

It would be nice, just for once, if the same protaganists were to allow the debate without the constant repetition of despair.

Suzie

I think most are with us 100%. I guess we have to accept it's easier for some just to look away, or walk away from the thread. Many of our stories are ugly truths, and just something some don't want to think about.

Gillespie said

''Those who have been innocently or foolishly parted from their money will never be able to come to terms with those who wish to buy or live in Spain.''

  Gillespie

What we won't come to terms with is those who are parted from their money by crooks not getting the justice they deserve due to a hopeless justice system. As you say, many forums are a stomping ground for the enraged and bitter. Doesn't that tell you something about the Spanish property industry and why change is so badly needed?

The changes so badly needed will benifit all. Those of us cheated are just that. people who have done nothing bad, but just wont sit back and be robbed by those who have.

Bottom line to everyone,

Is rough justice continuing? - yes.

Is there the need for change? - yes

Can we do something about this?- yes

Do we need sympathy to achieve our objectives? -no

Does personalising the debate help?- no

Does this have to be divisive? -no

Are we all in this together?- yes

Could we all work together to eradicate abusive practices? yes

Is it imperative to learn from this situation and forewarn others not to make the same mistakes in the interim? - yes

 I don't think anyone minds listening and as you say many sympathise with you as we would with anyone who has lost money unjustly.

But when people who have been treated badly by the same system constantly bicker and fight amongst themselves, continuely asking questions that have been answered time and time again it does get a tad boring.........

Lets face it we all sympathise and are grateful it wasn't us and we all have our own causes to fight,it is human nature to fight for the cause that has touiched you personally.

In the world at the moment there are a thousand causes that we couuld all fight for,petetion against, every single hour of everyday,the inhumane atrocities that hit the headlines with every breaking news story all deserve our attention and support, we may get involved in a few of them but as a rule prefer to turn the othere cheek.

I admire your stance and wish you luck with your petition but i would imagine it sits well down the pile on the desk of Mr Brown underneath similar submissions  to cease African Genecide and reform the child protection act etc....;etc...

I know you do not want to hear it but you are a very small percentage of people that have purchased here.

I would imagine before your petition was looked at there would be a very long list of "things to do" before the Goverment even looked outside of the UK.

When a country can release a mass murdering convicted terrorist back to a heroes welcome to keep a trade agreemnet, i cannot see Mr Brown ruffling the feathers of Zapatero,you would never se an orange again,there is already a threat of ricketts returning to the UK without Gordon upsetting the Apple cart.

I Digress.

The things that annoys most people on here and isolates the few are the comments from people that say all of Spain is a council estate with barking dogs and burnt out cars i know the poster is a little on the ecentric side but it doesn't add power to the process or encourage people that do have everything they want here, a reason to champion your cause.

I am Glad to say Spain has many things to offer but unfortunately the legal system is awful once you have the need to utilise it,customer care the same....most peiple who have purchased and chosen the country as a residence never have the need and so will of course be ignorant of your fight.

I would imagine every single one of the 37,000 memebers would back the few to the hilt if maybe things were adressed in a slightly different manner.

"As you say, many forums are a stomping ground for the enraged and bitter. Doesn't that tell you something about the Spanish property industry and why change is so badly needed?"

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It would tell me something if it were thousands, even hundreds of different accounts.

But the fact is, it is the same 2 or 3 dozen!

I don't see anyone on this thread or any others disagreeing with the need for some kind of fast track justice for the victims.

But as these threads become longer, then every 2 or 3 pages someone repeats -often in a rant- the same personal attacks and accounts!

People like Norman, as I see it, want to moved on from his own example, he is waiting for some constructive approach, yet I see him knocked back by the recycled personal examples of loss.

I have noticed some very useful contributions on this thread, norman has grasped them, but so many have passed them by. This has lead to missed opportunities and consequently little comfort or hope.

Your last post goodstich;..........

"The changes so badly needed will benifit all. Those of us cheated are just that. people who have done nothing bad, but just wont sit back and be robbed by those who have."

"What we won't come to terms with is those who are parted from their money by crooks not getting the justice they deserve due to a hopeless justice system. "

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..........Is just constant repetition, you have said these things so many times. It rather reminds me of John Cleese (Reg) in the "Life of Brian" - everone knows Brian is being crucified, they want to do something about it, but Reg just wants to debate it again and again!

We should now be able to move on to identifying things like what is the process for group action against a lawyer, agent, developer, judge. Where is the paperwork, who will fill it out, who will deleiver it, who will follow it through, who will report back, what is the next step, how much will each stage cost?

I have noticed every time someone on this thread asks one of those questions, the same people recite their example once again.

I am eager to hear the answers from people like Maria and Lawbird to the questions but they simply dissapear as the same recitals come around again and again.

Hello Georgia

You posted

" would imagine every single one of the 37,000 memebers would back the few to the hilt if maybe things were adressed in a slightly different manner.

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37,000 would be wonderful . You lead ? We will follow.

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Hey guys ! This is a big forum and just this thread thats fighting what is stated a minority subject.

For a minority subject its causing hell of an interest though.

Trashing the whole of Spain will do no good as can be seen it only causes many ill feelings. Thats stupid anyway. Its a wonderful country

Dont switch off guys as any help fighting what is a real cause is very welcome.  It may be a small problem for the many but it is a real big problem for few.

Even if you guys keep it in perspective, that alone would see just what we are trying to fight.

P.S.. Can take you to a few  half finished developments with dog shit/abandon burnt out cars with a few Pikeys as a bonus if you want.

As we know I can also take you to some wonderful areas that would blow yer mind.

Mind you.Icould do that in the U.K too.

Keep with it all and lets not argue.

This message was last edited by Chimps on 27/08/2009.