Rough justice yet again!

norman

I tried to negotiate with the developer. I said if a discount was offered in line with the reduction in size then we would complete. The developer would not accept any discount.

This hypothetical loss with regards to if we had completed and the amount the market price has changed up or down is beside the point really. As it happens, even at todays prices I would have been just about better off completing, and add that to the money and stress we have suffered there is no contest. I wouldn't wish our injustice on anyone. The point is we were robbed first by unregulated liars and then after a very long fight and proof (if it were ever needed??) that we were cheated,  by the so called justice system who are there to do just just the opposite of what they have done!!

Meg, chimps, norman

thanks for your understanding. We are all saying much the same thing in slightly different ways I think. We know this just so wrong. Just what the hell to do make it right. Suzanne on here is working very hard to highlight our cases. We need to talk to her also I feel.

Dear Goodstich,

sorry to add to your grief but I just do not believe that you would have been financially better off completing on the property offered that was so under size.

To my knowledge Aifos did not build wonderful developments.

You are just not allowing sufficient discount for the market crash, which is not yet over.

Sorry to disagree with someone in the same boat.

Regards

Norman

Norman

I dont think anyone is interested how much Goodstich 44 property  would have been worth. What a property is worth can change in the next 10 years He could well have used for himself/family /rented or have run a house of ill repute for all we know.

He wasnt given the choice of completing or not on what was agreed

If I read Goodstich right its not about what  or even how much was lost its about how it was lost.

The LAW was abused and he lost far more than money.

Its not a value you can put on this after 8 years of worry/stress ,lost deposit and legal fees

The only value he could have received was justice Got what he was willing to pay for or his money returned.

Even that would have probably left lots of scars.

Sorry if I have read this wrong Goodstich44

My veiw is THE LAW OF SPAIN and why do they not use it and allow such abuse .I think many deserve an answer ,DONT YOU ALL!

Dear Chimps,

Could not agree more with your sentiments.............but the fact remains that if Goodstich or Magicmegs are able to provide another deposit, at this time, they can buy at current market values and be better off financially than they would have been completing.

If they can, then I envy them and wish I was in their shoes.

The strict economics are that simple.

This in no way mitigates the wrong they, and I have suffered at the hands of the "system".

A system that those in the know knew about all along but failed to impart.

Perhaps the belated "Spain Uncut" reveals it, I don't know, merely because I cannot afford it.

Regards

Norman

Chimps

yes, you are smack on with regards to our situation.

norman

we have a slight  misunderstanding here. 

norman

.........sorry, I didn't press send!!

as I was saying, we would only have been better off completing if we had got it at contract size for the agreed price. To pay full price for an apartment half contract size, and two years late with no LFO would have been absurd.  And no, we are not in a financial position to buy again. That's it for us, savings gone, and a family with two teenagers to support from my small business. I still work long days quite often, and in saving for our deposit did 12-15 hour days on a regular basis to get  our ''place in the sun'' Money has never come easy to us, which is one of the reasons i'm so angry.  That was my chance to make up for all hours spent out the house when I had a very young family. It was my decision to spend our savings on a deposit, so i've also let my family down. We have moved house though, so that's something we probably couldn't have done had we completed?

Anyway this is getting away from the main point. As chimp says, we need an answer  as to why the laws in Spain have not been used?, and why they allowed such abuse?, and why in such a clear case they have denied our chance of justice by delaying our hearing and  the decision on it ?  The developer is in court sometimes several times a week for wrong doing, does that say nothing to the judge?

Perhaps a helpful lawyer like Maria can  explain?  I doubt we will get an answer though?, it's just wrong and needs changing, otherwise I would have had my deposit back with interest and compensation long ago.

Dear Goodstich,

I fully understand what you are saying and sympathise closely with the loss of life savings, but pardon the presumption, if you could have afforded the mortgage payments in the first place and have not been paying them for eight years, surely another deposit, especially one of the new lower ones now required, could be built up to enable you to do a similar deal to Sir Alan and get a cracking buy?

I suppose much depends on how much testing the system has cost you, a cost that I am very chary about embarking upon.

As to how important we Brits are to Spain and what chance we have of changing the system, Gillespie and Roberto have already given their views on that in another thread, not at all encouraging I am afraid.

Best of luck for whatever happens and what you decide.

Pensioners, I think do not have a lot of choice.

Regards

Norman

Norman, you wrote:

 if you could have afforded the mortgage payments in the first place and have not been paying them for eight years, surely another deposit, especially one of the new lower ones now required, could be built up to enable you to do a similar deal to Sir Alan and get a cracking buy?

I have to say that I think that statement is probably the most ridiculous thing you've written to date.  Nobody in their right mind would buy in Spain today even without having gone through what Goodstich has been through. Alan Sugar may think he has bought a hotel in Marbella. The Bank in question thinks otherwise and other prospective buyers  apparently viewed it yesterday! Nothing is trustworthy in Spain when it comes to buying property.

Hi Goodstich,

I have been reading about your appalling circumstances and it beggars belief...(or does it???????????)  I cannot think of anything to say that can help your situation or feelings. We've had many "chats" about  "Non Justice in Spain". You know my feelings only too well. Suffice to say, I'm so sorry this has happened to you. You really do not deserve this kick in the teeth. I'm sending you a "cyber hug"! xx

We put down a deposit in Sept 05 and nothing has been built. For the last 18 months i have spent many hours working away at getting our deposit back. This has been along side sourcing a new lawyer and paying more money on top to go through the legal process.

Last Oct i contacted the FSA as i found our bank guarantee was with a worldwide insurance company who had a UK office. They were helpful and gave me the name and contact details of the UK Chief Exec. After initial interest he passed everything back to his spanish office and it was obvious he didnt understand any of the bg process. Back to a brick wall.

I then logged a petition with the European Parliment this has been passed as admissable and the European Commision are investigating further.

I then lost my job as the bank i had worked for (18 years) was taken over by Santander. They are ruthless and are 20 years behind with working processes.

We continue with our court case and i continue to support this every way i can. I suppose i'm saying dont give up.

Spain! if i won the lottery i wouldnt buy.

norman

we intended to rent out our apartment to off-set some of the mortgage. (more lies and bullshit from the agent) As I said, we moved house which probably wouldn't have been possible had we completed with a mortgage.  That is all if's and but's though. If we had completed as the contract we could have sold about 3 years ago at a good profit, or we might  have kept it and lost out?  who knows?, it's beside the point.  We are talking about of being ultimately conned by the justice stystem following years of being conned by those they should have regulated against in any fair system.

Tish

yes, thanks for the hug  and all your support all the way. I always thought deep down, however long, however hard, we would get justice in the end?  Now i've had it well and truly confirmed that being in the right in Spain means so liitle when it comes to justice, i'm seeing things in a new and very ugly light! 

forseys

you have obviously been through it all as well sadly. I wish you the best of luck and hope we can do something to put this right. Why the hell should we sit back and be robbed?   We just need someone who knows the difference between right and wrong and who is in a position to take action, to just bloody do so!

Dear Tish,

thank you and I guess I wont be getting a hug of any kind.

Goodstich loves Spain as do many other Brits including Techno, who thinks his move is the best thing he has done, unless things have changed. Many post that they are somewhat discomfited but still would not contemplate returning to the UK.

Some even report that the heavily discounted properties are selling.

If you are correct then even an auction sale is not definite in Spain's system.

I imagine that an entrepreneur who had the resources to buy at auction might well sell it the next day to an hotel professional not having those same resources immediately to hand. Time will tell.

Do you really believe that Spain is totally out of bounds except to the "barmy"?

I agree that the "hurt" process can certainly influence one's judgement and that the market has heavily discounted property values in Spain.

However to speculate on mortgage payments of E1,000 per month for eight years gives a total of E96,000 without compound interest, doesn't it?

Please explain what is ridiculous about that????

I rather suspect that the answer here is in Goodstich's other comment...

We have moved house though, so that's something we probably couldn't have done had we completed?

Regards

Norman

Hi Norman,

Goodstich needs a hug more than you do I suspect! 

Re the mortgage point of view you used, I don't get that at all.  If you need a mortgage then  presumably it's because you don't have the money to buy. Therefore how can you have accrued/saved  anything ?

If we were paying a thousand euros a month to fund a "lifestyle" in Spain with a second home, then we would need to be either wealthy or (IMO) stupid. If you don't have the capital then don't buy in the first place. Just my opinion of course.

Hello Tish,

Given what Goodstich has now revealed, that his proposed purchase relied not just on a mortgage but on some rental income as well, as promised by the agent, he perhaps needs more than a hug.

I am afraid that there are many on this forum who believe that such a proposition to finance an investment in the sun is somewhat foolish.

They would say that rental income should have been discounted altogether in one's assessment, as I believe is the case with banks when considering mortgages.

Re the mortgage point of view you used, I don't get that at all.  If you need a mortgage then  presumably it's because you don't have the money to buy. Therefore how can you have accrued/saved  anything ?

Goodstich and I accrued our life savings sufficient only for a deposit and obviously before taking out a mortgage, since neither of us have completed we have not taken the necessary mortgage and therefore not paid the monthly payments.

I have accrued mine for a shorter period but Goodstich has spent his, or part thereof on legal fees and moving house.

Please note I used a theoretical E1000 not an actual, it built up quicker that way. 

If I understand you as posted, you now believe that buying in Spain using a mortgage is in itself very risky/silly.

Given this view do you not think that perhaps attempting to fight the established system is also similar?

Regards

Norman

normansands, excellent well thought out post Norman.

Your points are very clear and relevent.

 Hi Norman,

I took your €1000 at face value, not as an illustration.  My mistake.

If I understand you as posted, you now believe that buying in Spain using a mortgage is in itself very risky/silly.

Buying anywhere with a mortgage is a risk. Some risks are worth taking, but not to fund a Spanish lifestyle, not anymore.

Given this view do you not think that perhaps attempting to fight the established system is also similar?

I think it is very much a risk, ( but then so is buying in Spain.) but it is sometimes a necessary risk to try and retrieve money that belongs to you and not a lying, cheating, thieving developer.

Norman, are you implying, like many of the Spanish Judges, that just because someone bought as an investment or  who intended  to let their property to help cover costs, they are not entitled to have their money refunded regardless of the fact that the developer did not deliver AS PER CONTRACT what was agreed to?

Regardless of yours,mine or anyone elses views, Goodstich has been treated exceedingly badly. It is unexcusable in my book.

Tish

yes, exactly. Why on earth Norman is now trying to make anyone look foolish because they considered renting out the apartment for some periods to help pay the mortgage is a mystery to me as well?  In 2002 this was a big seller when buying in Spain. I discounted the agents figures, that was obviously bull, but the idea of renting itself was as good as guaranteed from a number of agents we spoke to. 

Anyway this line of thought is not really relevant at all, unless of course you are someone only to keen to grasp any oppotunity to blame the victims. As you say Tish, that's the sort of logic we could expect from a corrupt judge to excuse justice. The thread is about rough justice, and of that there is no doubt.  Let's concentrate on what we can do to put this right?

My goodness so many experts and so little understanding of the wider issues to peoples lives.

To be honest the Spanish lawyer, legal system needs to be changed but the english salesperson has alot to answer for in Spain.

I would certainly score them lower than a 1970's double glazing salesman. Talk the talk and pass the buck when something goes wrong.

A salesperson is a salesperson....it speaks for itself.

A  lawyer is someone whom I thought worked within the confines of and was versed in the law.............. WRONG!!!!! 

As for UK salesmen selling in Spain, many were double glazing salesmen !