Rough justice yet again!

ads

criminal investigation rather than the creditors I think, but not sure who's behind that?

faro

we will probably all be drinking cocoa through a straw by the time we get justice???.

As I have suggested earlier in this thread you need to analyse the cases where

deposits are being returned.

I suspect it will be through taking banks to court for lack of bank guarantees.

See Keith110,s posting about Facebook.

in my honest opinion ordinary creditors of Aifos will get nothing.

The case in the Sur is for a specific development in Malaga I think.

there will be many others to follow. 

peteha

that has been done. In cases of lack of BG's providing justice, it's early days, but cases are being looked in to for this route. The problem is that many of us have spent years getting cases to court, won the case and still recieved nothing. As yet, chasing the banks is no guarantee that the same wont happen again. We don't need more court cases, we need regulation that states if the person was not given a BG, then they are automatically recognised as the victim of a criminal deed, and compensated accordingly without spending years and a small fortune taking banks to court with their own very own powerfull lawyers to contend with, and what we know of the justice system!!

Back after a small break.

A general petition to Bank of Spain might help. Keith, who is the real, great promoter of justice in these cases, without whose suggestions, we would probable not be studying these actions as deep as were are now,  is preparing a great display in media mass and having this claim before the Bank of Spain in course will definitely help to the social and political conscience. 

Would you be up for signing it? I can ask our database IT guy to prepare a system to go with this as soon as possible.

At the end, we will write memories with the testimonies of this EOS thread. Justin and Susan... thanks again. Thanks to you all, whose claims will make Spain a safer place.

Maria,

Are you referring only to Aifos creditors or to all those suffering injustices relating to Bank Guarantees right now?

Are you suggesting that we would finally have a general petition to the Bank of Spain from everyone who has been caught up in the Bank Guarantee nightmare, or is this petition intended only for your clients?

Ads - Our FINCA PARCS ACTION GROUP is just for the purchasers at Las Higuericas Finca Parcs who did not receive the legally required Bank Guarantees.

However, part of the Finca Parcs Action Group website deals with Spanish Law - LEY 57/68 and is relevant to any person with Bank Guarantee issues.  Go to the website www.fincaparcsactiongroup.com and look at the left hand panel.  Scroll down and see the topics below the sub heading LEY 57/68.

As mentioned in my report 'THE SHOCKING TRUTH' this is a huge issue in Spain.  There are thousands of purchasers in exactly the same situation as us at Finca Parcs.

I have just started a Blog on Eye on Spain dealing with the issue of Bank Guarantees for ALL purchasers affected in Spain.

http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/ley5768.aspx

Anyone can post comments on the Blog and we will use all these comments and purchaser situations to present to the Banco de Espana and the Spanish Government.

Also I have just started a Facebook page for ALL purchasers affected by the Bank Guarantee issue in Spain.  We will also use this to promote our cause and also to present to the Banco de Espana and Spanish Government.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Spanish-Off-Plan-Property-Lack-Of-Bank-Guarantees-LEY-5768/134524803233863

For the FINCA PARCS ACTION GROUP we are presenting our story to the Spanish, British and Irish media.  The press release will not only deal with our Finca Parcs situation but will also highlight just how serious the Bank Guarantee situation is for many thousands of off-plan purchasers on other developments in Spain.

Now is the time to lift the lid on this corruption, tell the truth to the mass media - the truth that can be backed up with evidence and many hours, weeks, days and months of research into this situation, in particular Spanish Law - LEY 57/68.

Ruth - you did a fantastic job and I am sure you have dedicated a massive amount of time to this issue, which must be commended.  We are now 18 months on from the time you presented your petition in Feb 2009 and I feel that the landscape has changed a great deal in that short time.  I think in the last 18 months many more thousands of innocent purchasers have only just 'realised' that they are victims of the lack of Bank Guarantees or the failure of the Banks to honour the Bank Guarantees that were issued.

The difficult thing will be to get all of the affected purchasers together under one banner so the Banco de Espana realise that this is a huge issue that will not go away and one that really does fall under their remit and an issue that they and the Spanish Government must address.

We now have Lawyers and Civil Law Professors who believe we have a very strong case against the Banks.  We will continue to fight for justice and hope that all those affected will join the battle by 'liking / joining' the Facebook page and posting their stories on both the Facebook page and the Eye on Spain Blog.

Kind regards

Keith

Sincere thanks to Keith and Ruth for all their efforts. You are wonderful champions of the cause and I hope everyone affected supports you in your continued endeavours.

 ads: The petition would include of course everyone involved in the Bank Guarantee problem.

Ruth: As an answer to Rosario Moreno Perez: lack of guarantees in off plan purchases in Spain has been, since  1968 considered by the legislator a public order matter. That´s why rights related to this Law are inalienable or, better explaines, cannot be waived or negotiated  by them in their private law transactions.The tuitiver character of the Law is self explanatory.

I hope to be able to explain more on this tomorrow morning, once the kids, who have had a terrible hot afternnon today allow me... in the silence of the pre 9am hours.

See you all then.

Best,

MAria 

This message was last edited by mariadecastro on 29/06/2010.

maria

the petition sounds like a very good idea to me. The authorities need to know just how many are in this position, so that regulation can be bought in fast that recognises those who are the victims of crime by the banks for not providing a BG, and makes sure the victims recieve compensation without further long and costly individual court battles.

If we can't get fast regulation bought in, do you think a joint action by all on a petition against the banks would work?   I guess there are several banks involved so perhaps the groups of people on the petition who used the same bank could take joint action?

Keith

well done for this. The facebook idea sounds supurb. I really feel that strength in numbers is by far our best way forward, as it's so much harder it ignore.

Keith,

May I ask you some painful questions regarding the practicalities associated with your court action?

How long do you envisage it will be before your group action comes to court and more importantly that return of monies is actually realised?

Are you concerned that given the existing significant court delays, that in the interim the Bank's liquidity may be called into question? My point of reference here are the articles "the eurozone's vulnerable Banks" and "Spanish Banks rage at end of ECB offer".

Once the floodgates open for court action of this nature, will this exacerbate the problem re court delays. In other words how realistic is it that court action will succeed, even given sound legal arguments?

Do you feel that any petition needs to place great emphasis on these background factors and pressure should be brought to bear on the Spanish administration of justice? What is the point of winning cases if all that happens is they get stuck and/or become compromised by the quagmire of mal-administration as appears to be the case right now?

Maria,

If large numbers were to come together for group action against each specific Bank  (as per Goodstich's suggestion) would you revise your legal costs downward or even consider no win/no fee?

Goodstich44: Facts to be brought to Banks/ Courts for the determination of liabilities in these cases need to be based on activities prerformed by finaitial institutions related to each particular development. That´s why joint actions need to be divided into developments.

Ads:  Timeframes will depend on how quick w can organise ourselves and also on bank´s reaction. The general petition before Bank of Spain will certainly help. I do not think that liabilities requested from to Banks in this type of actions will supoose an unbalance to the finantial/ judicial system, on the contrary, will give resources back to citizens for economies related to real estate re-operate a little bit faster.

maria

yes, I see what you mean. I was hoping that in any situation where a BG was not provided, there would be somebody in authority who would stand up for those victims?  On my development, despite massive breaches of contract, , half contract size, nearly two years late build, no LFO and no BG, I think virtually all were pressured in to completion because they feared anything would be better than nothing and the chances of justice through litigation would be all but impossible which has indeed turned out to be the case so far.  With that in mind I'm pretty much on my own with regards to action against the bank for no BG. If that means years more costly individual litigation then that's not an option for those like me who are not in a large group from a certain development. We really do need a ruling that fits the crime for all.

 Goodstich:

I would love to be able to perform judicial actions on behalf of everyone who did not receive a Bank Guarantee, but I am learning as a team director and company manager that resources are always necessary to keep the team vibrant and eager to work passionately for justice.  Therefore we need these funds for the judicial processing of the claims. It is always a long, intensive task.  I know you are fully aware of length but believe... it is also very, very intensive for the clients care team and the litigators and I am firs face risponsable of achieving that funds are there by the end of every month.

Of course the general petition to Bank of Spain, where just names will be included will be, no doubt, out of charge. 

I just need to know when you are ready so we can start setting an online data fill in for a quick processing of the same. We can go directly to Bank of Spain as there are many financial institutions involved.

I am sure you understand.

Maria

Goodstitch - yes we need to use all the media opportunities available to highlight the seriousness of this issue to the Spanish Government and Banco de Espana.  Believe me, I will do everything I can to highlight this shocking issue.

We need to reach out to as many off-plan purchasers as possible who have Bank Guarantee issues.  It does not matter which development they are on, if they are part of a group, which Lawyer they are using etc - we just want them to join/like the Facebook page and post details of their situation, comment on the blog and sign a petition. 

We can then collate all the media resources together to present to the Banco de Espana and Spanish Government (and to the EU if necessary).

The facebook page:
 
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Spanish-Off-Plan-Property-Lack-Of-Bank-Guarantees-LEY-5768/134524803233863

eye on spain blog:

http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/ley5768.aspx

It would be fantastic if we could get co-ordinated action groups on each development, however as I know from my experience of forming and co-ordinating the Finca Parcs Action Group - it takes a hell of a lot of time and effort - all voluntary, except for a few out of pocket expenses that may be claimed by the group leader.

Purchasers on each development need to form action groups to reduce the legal fees payable by each person, share evidence and benefit from strength in numbers.  Ideally each action group, irrespective of the Lawyer being used, could link together for the petition, facebook page etc.

Ads - Our particular group action is well advanced.  I paid my deposit in 2006 and have been collecting evidence since that date.  I began forming the Finca Parcs Action Group in the Summer of 2009.  Our evidence now stands at 500 pages - our case is very complex and has many different aspects.  Our case will be in the courts very shortly.  As for the timescales with regards to monies being returned - Well we cannot say for certain that any money will be returned - nothing is certain with the Spanish Judicial system - but we will never give up and we believe we have a very strong case.  The court process may take a year or more - who knows for sure??

As you say group action means lower legal fees, because the group leader can negotiate a reduced fee.  For an individual purchaser to take independent action the legal fees on many occasions are prohibitive and the purchaser just 'walks away'.  This is what the developers and Banks were hoping for................But with group action many more purchasers can be involved because of the reduced level of legal fees.

With regards to the liquidity of the Banks - this is a problem - because all the off-plan deposits that were paid for which Bank Guarantees were not issued is in effect 'in a black hole' and unaccounted for.  We are effectively unsecured investors in bankrupt building companies.  However, due to deeper study of LEY 57/68 it is clear that the Banks are liable for off-plan deposits in their custody.  So although the Banks may have illegally held the money in the wrong type of accounts and illegally released the money to the developers - at some point in time this money will have to be accounted for and refunded to the innocent purchasers.

If the Banks do not have the funds and are unable to repay then it may mean that the Spanish Government and Banco de Espana have to step in and create an 'Emergency Bank Guarantee Refund Fund".  If they do not then Spain will be shamed forever.

With regards to the reply Ruth received from Rosario Perez Moreno at the Banco de Espana - what a shocking reply that is..........

What is the point in the Banco de Espana if they are unable to regulate the Banks and Savings Banks who have clearly acted contrary to Spanish Law.  This is not a private issue between client and Bank.  This is an issue where the Banks have clearly broken Spanish Law.  The Banks have been negligent and lacked professional due diligence.  If the Banco de Espana are not willing to ensure their Banks are made to act according to Spanish Law then I am sorry but in my opinion the Banco de Espana is complicit in the illegal activity of the Banks.

And if Mr Zapatero is willing to stand back and allow the Banks of his country to continue operating without any regard for Spanish Law then he too is just as guilty.

Kind regards

Keith

Maria,

How long do you hold back on group action waiting for numbers of clients to accumulate? Would you base this on a minimum number of clients before you would proceed and would you identify a cut off date for each development? I think people need more details as to the practicalities and realities before they would commit, so if speed is of the essence here then the more information you can give the better, including details of your associated fees and if you might be prepared in principal to revise fees depending on the uptake.

Keith

yes, the reply Ruth got is nothing less than a cop-out. They know full well that an individual case against the banks is highly unlikely to succeed. They don't want joint action, and they certainly don't want a ruling that says they must pay those they have cheated through not providing a BG. Shame indeed on the Banco de Espana for this unnaceptable reply. Same old story though, while they can get away with daylight robbery they will!!

maria

if the only option at the moment is long and costly litigation, then clearly the system is not working in favour of those cheated.  Would be be better to fight for change in the system that would benifit all and dissuade the cheats from operating in a criminal way?.  The system clearly stinks, because it doesn't work in favour of people in the right. If they can't afford to fight a case that they are clearly in the right anyway by law, they just have to accept they have been cheated by the banks and the system and do nothing? 

The general petition to Bank of Spain, where just names will be included will be, no doubt, out of charge.

 System guidelines were clearly established in 1968, the required development has not been done.  As it happens in Law in many occassions.

But  it never is too late for the improvement of systems and I do believe in negotiated solutions.

Maria