Rough justice yet again!

Dear All,

does anyone actually know of a successful case against a Spanish developer?

goodstich wants to hold the developer responsible and then the courts, or even the government, he is nothing if not ambitious.

no mention of any culpability on the part of the lawyer who, if his case is similar to mine, actually got him into the contract and mess passing his money over from the safety of the client account.

Maria likewise, wants to chase the developer and not the lawyer, not withstanding that the developer's lawyer has more escape routes than a rabbit warren, she presumably thinks or knows that the lawyer will have even more escape routes than the developer, no such thing as professional indemnity insurance then???

this seems to be an impossible, no hope situation and a very poor way of investing my last few pennies.

Chimps thinks that 425,000E is a lot of money for an apartment at Casares del Sol, I cannot disagree, I valued it when seen and surveyed at £75,000 and most of that was due to location, but actually valueless to me since it was nothing like what I had agreed to buy, with my life savings for inheritance purposes.

Whilst I may not exactly agree with Smiley, he is in the right direction when he says a "million miles away" from what I thought I was getting.

So if the brochure is meaningless nonsense, what and where is the specification for an off-plan purchase, what does the developer present to the notary in the legal pack, surely not the infamous contract for a few miserable under-size rooms on something akin to an English Council Estate, but no where near as well built.

Rooms that when you stand in and sigh in your search of your front-line golf location, your neighbour in the next apartment can clearly hear you. In fact if he is not a sub-prime tenant and speaks the same language you could happily converse through the wall without raising your voice.

All to be seen through my window was dogs crapping on the pavement in front of the block opposite. Front line crap not front line golf.

So how do you specify and successfully buy an off-plan purchase in Spain??????????

Not by using a lawyer, that much is surely certain by now.

Regards

Norman

JUSTIN CAN YOU MOVE THAT DAMN FEEDBACK SIGN FROM RIGHT TO LEFT PLEASE

Goodstich:

An action against the administration of  Justice is possible of course. The details of your case would have to be reviewed.

Normansands:

Every registered lawyer in Spain have insurance for proferssional indemnity. Technical reasons require we go first against developer/guarantoor, but of course actions against proffessional for negligence are always open there.

Maria

While there are some (and I suspect the minority), who have successfully purchased off plan in Spain, I think you know my views on the potential of a successful off plan purchase already. I want to know whose dogs I am going to be watching as they have their crap.

A forum member (Mike T) who has been exceptionally quiet over the last 12 months brought a successful action against a developer. I think it was done as a group and I believe it was through the courts, although you would need to check with him. Whatever it was as a group, they had to fund the class action upfront, but I am fairly certain that they were content albeit not deliriously happy with the outcome and felt they had received some degree of justice. They were refusing to complete on their purchases until a resolution was reached and it sounds as if you Norman (or your lawyer under POA) have actually signed for the property - bearing in mind the wafer thin walls and squatting dogs.

Getting a lawyer here to sue another lawyer is the same as the UK - extremely rare - it does happen but most simply dont want to do take on one of their peer group - unless Maria can tell us any different.

Those lawyers that are members of the College of Lawyers I believe are open to a system of redress and compensation (what this covers I have no idea as I have never had to use it - or maybe its simply the right to register complaint). Whether they are as ineffective as the Law Society in the UK or not I couldnt tell you.

Smiley:  While there are some (and I suspect the minority), who have successfully purchased off plan in Spain, I think you know my views on the potential of a successful off plan purchase already. I want to know whose dogs I am going to be watching as they have their crap.

Chimps:  Well one thing should be clear .Never ever buy off plan as the risks are far too high against any potential benefits.

I would beg to differ.  I am sure that there are hundreds of thousands of satisfied buyers of off-plan property in Spain, probably millions if you don't just count the expats.  Indeed, surely, not so long ago, the majority was doing it this way.  I, and everyone on my development - and dozens of developments nearby - all bought off-plan and we are all extremely happy with our purchases.  OK, there have been some problems (elsewhere) but they are in the minority, not those who have bought successfully.  There have also been many problems with resale property when hidden debts have cropped up, the permission to build has been rescinded etc.  Those being pulled down are nothing to do with being off-plan but of corrupt planning offices and the "it will be alright in the end" attitude of some solicitors.  Buying off-plan (not so much now due to the turndown in property prices - but - hey - if any of us on here knew that was going to happen they would be too busy counting their money to post on here - hindsight is a wonderful sense) not so long ago was a good thing because you could fix the price a couple of years before you moved in when prices rose considerably.  My first one, for example, was £67,000 and, when I moved in 2 and half years later, it would have been £96,000.  It also gave me those two  and a half years to get the finances together to pay it off completely on purchase. Saving up and buying later would have meant increased costs and I probably couldn't have afforded it.  Now, you take your chance that the price may actually go down in a year or so but you take the same chance buying a resale.  Again, marvellous thing this hindsight.

It is not the off-plan that is the problem, it is the fly-by-night developer.  Pick one who is close to the development and has proper offices, not one that shows you round from a show-home or a caravan on site.  And I have no sympathy with those who bought two as an investment as they believed the guff about how prices will go up so much the profit on the second one will pay for the first.  That's like complaining a faster horse beat yours in the National so you should be entitled to get your money back.

Dear Bobaol,

so how was success achieved, using a lawyer or the notary, or was it just a case of an honest developer providing all that was in the brochure/specification/contract??????????

Smiley,

Mike T considers himself cheated like the rest of us, I believe that the group spent over £100,000 on lawyers and surveyors/architects etc. only to have the developer volunteer to go bankrupt if they would not accept a discounted settlement.

the law in Spain is totally defeated by the court system it seems, NO HOPE NO HOPE NO HOPE!!!

Regards

Norman

An honest developer. 

My first property was a nightmare due to using a British company as agents, a developer who didn't pay off his mortgage on the land, a lawyer who was in cahoots with the agents and a "mistranslation" of events at the notary by the interpreter provided by said lawyers.

Took years to sort that one out.

However, an honest developer who has a big stake in the area and does everything it says on the box made my second one a dream.  Also used an independent lawyer for the second purchase, not one recommended by any agent or developer.  Completed on time, to spec, snagged and corrected within a week and, even now some 18 months later, they will come round and fix any problems that might occur.  OK, so they actually own half the town I live in (the owners brother owns the other half of the town) so they may have some reason to maintain a good reputation, especially as they have already put in roads and infrastructure on several other sites in the area ready for future building. 

I still maintain that, despite the horror stories, the majority of purchases are done efficiently and with no problems.  Unfortunately, some of the companies tried to cash in on the bandwagon and didn't have the backup when things started to go wrong.  I feel for those who have had big problems and also agree that most of these occurred because they have been let down by the legal system, lawyers not doing their jobs properly in the first place etc.  The horror stories are also the ones that get the bad press as "expat completes property purchase on time and is very happy" doesn't sell many newspapers whereas "expat property nightmare due to corruption" will.  As an example, I give you that last, not very well researched, TV programme we all talked about which could only find a handful of disgruntled buyers out of the almost a million Brit buyers.  Even poor Wally's estate is now a lot better than that programme showed so it was probably filmed a couple of years ago.  The council problems (overflowing sewers etc) have been fixed but the developer problem (again used by that famous British agent) continue.  As does the legal problem with the lawyers in cahoots with that British agent.  (I won't name them but, for the sake of argument, we will give them  fictitious names like "Atlas" and "Aroca" or something like that).

Hi bobal

I too did buy off plan and am happy. That makes me fortunate and not something I would ever do again.I wasnt clever ,I consider myself lucky

I would tell the world not to as long as just one would listen.  As I said the potential benefits are simply not worth losing everything.

I have property in Spain. that also doesnt mean I would buy or recommend anyone to buy while the system stinks.

I myself know to many that have lost the lot,both financially and mentally. No justice.no law to protect.its Russian Roulette and next time I like the rest of the poor souls I may very well get the bullet.

Glad you are happy and of course there are many more.

Dear Bobaol,

thank you, but you agree that the "dream" was produced by an honest developer, so what was different, the developer or the independent/honest lawyer and what if anything was produced to the notary, was it an honest specification based on an honest brochure?

as to the problem that was "sorted out", how was it sorted out, was the law and legal system of any value to you, what happened?

Sorry to be pushy.

Regards

Norman

Chimps

your last couple of posts are smack on. It is indeed a lottery. Of course many are happy, we know that, but how many really got what was in their contract?. I know that on the development I was transfered to, most completed. Not because they were happy, far from it, but because despite dreadful breaches of contract, plus no BG and no LFO, and nearly two year late build, when they said they didn't want to complete they were offered a no win situation. Because of the dreadful system they were told if they didn't complete it would be near impossible to get their deposit back, so what choice?. Those people are making the best of it and that's their choice, I wasn't prepared to be conned  (my apartment 50% of contract size on top of the other faults) but have paid the price of fighting for what's right.

As you rightly say, the whole system stinks.  Not just off-plan but the whole lack of implementation of law, hopeless justice system, and corruption beyond belief. You could be lucky and everything go fine, and i'm under no illusion that's not the case for many, but if something does go wrong, all the homework and research might well not mean a thing, however much you are in the right. It's all obviously part of a much bigger picture that has ended up in what we now see as Spains property industry. A bloody mess!! 

Three "there are"

There are many experiences of developers having a rule against them and obligation to refund ( money+legal interests+legal costs) with and without a Bank Guarantee in place. And Court decission´s being obeyed and money being actually  back in client´s accounts.

Of course there are rulings in the opposite way, but Appeal Courts ( Malaga among them) are being  more and more sensitive with the pro-consumer approach.

I do not want to say that  all is easy and clear cut, but a good fight usually gives good results: and the fight is needed as an increasing number of Case Law will set a cleae pro-buyer interpretation for this off-plan purchases where so much is risked.

I am sure there are many good lawyers doing an excellent and succesful job already.

This message was last edited by mariadecastro on 14/08/2009.

Goodstich said  "Because of the dreadful system they were told if they didn't complete it would be near impossible to get their deposit back, so what choice?. Those people are making the best of it and that's their choice, I wasn't prepared to be conned  (my apartment 50% of contract size on top of the other faults) but have paid the price of fighting for what's right."

This may be part of the problem that not enough people have stood up and fought like Goodstich has, and I include myself in that. In the notary office we crumbled and signed away any rights to have the developer actually deliver what they promised, we were just desperate to get the house. But at the time I expect everyone thinks they are alone in this struggle and it is a brave person who decides to fight. Ironically the message I am trying to get across to the community now with the lousy president is we must all stand together and fight against wrongdoing, but it's an uphill struggle.

I wish all the brave souls like Goodstich, Norman and Suzie well as they are the people who will eventually change the system, not wimps like me or other 'well informed' contributors.

Regards, Poppyseed

Poppyseed I am with you, the fight is needed. And it is an uphill work but I cannot wait to see the views from the top, as in the picture below.

Three "there are-s"
14 August 2009 @ 23:54

 

Three "there are"

There are many experiences of developers having a  Court ruling against them and imposed an obligation to refund ( money+legal interests+legal costs) with and without a Bank Guarantee being in place. And Court decission´s being obeyed and money being actually  back in client´s accounts.

Of course there are rulings in the opposite way, but Appeal Courts ( Malaga among them) are being  more and more sensitive with the pro-consumer approach.

I do not want to say that  all is easy and clear cut, but a good fight usually gives good results: and the fight is needed as an increasing number of Case Law will set a clear pro-buyer interpretation for this off-plan purchases where so much is risked.

I am sure there are many good lawyers doing an excellent and succesful job already.

Sierra de Grazalema ( Cádiz) by Néstor at Flickr.com

http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/costaluz/2064/three-there-are.aspx

This message was last edited by mariadecastro on 15/08/2009.

This message was last edited by mariadecastro on 15/08/2009.

This message was last edited by mariadecastro on 15/08/2009.

 Hi Goodstitch, I reckon in answer to your query how many did get what they signed for, it would be very very few. On starting my business, I was amazed at the amount of people who, wanting to sell, sent me the information of the off plan unit. Most only bore a passing resemblence to what they had actually received.

One of the worst was a lady who bought one in Riviera del Sol. I went to view the spacious corner penthouse with huge wraparound terrace and was shocked at what I saw. I reported back to her that whilst she did indeed have this unit, it wasnt the 120sqm 3 bed 2 bath property as she should have had. They had somehow squeezed a 3 bed 2 bath lounge and kitchen into 69sqm!!! Massive terrace, granted and had sea views but the kitchen was tiny, for dolls! The surrounding buildings were on the doorstep and so closed in! When I told her this she sent me the brochure showing these luxry apartments and finishes set on a grassy hill with rolling fields down to the sea!!!!!!!

It turned out she had stood on said field a few years earlier and been told all sorts and paid her deposit. What she got was not what she thought she was getting.

She also refused and managed to get the developer to give her most of the money back, mainly by being a pain. Her lawyer and agent was in cahoots with the developer and she was strong.

She now lives in Crete or one of the greek islands - we are still in communication, but that was a real eyeopener to me!

Many many more have not quite as bad stories, but because its 90% of what they expected, they take it so you wont hear about them.

Poppyseed

one thing I want to make very clear is that I do not feel that you and all others pressured in to completing are in any way wimps. Had the system used common sense and integrity, you would have been able to stand up for your rights knowing that those who were trying to cheat you would be bought to rights, and you would either get what you paid for, or your money back with compensation for lost interest at the very least. 

No doubt those who did complete on my development will look at me now and say ''well we might not have got what we paid for, but what have you got?''.......and they have a good point!  This shows just how rotten the system is. I realise now that is all very much part of the scam from agent to courtroom. Because the system that should regulate against those who would cheat you at all levels doesn't regulate, and laws are often not implemented, you have little choice but to take what's dished out to you. As you know, some of us are trying to fight that system and not getting far, apart from bringing the reality of the lies and betrayal of trust at all levels to peoples attention.

Before I get labelled as not seeing both sides, I must say once again that I realise many are happy and there are good people working in the industry like Maria, Rixxy and a few others who post on here, and of course others we don't hear from. I just hope all people within the indusry will speak up for everyone cheated and do their bit to change what is obviously a system that has let down so many people who are just trying to fight for what is right.

I know unions are an ugly word today, but as you say, unless people stand together whether it be in communities or fighting for justice when buying, then nothing much will change, as crooks just rely on those not standing up for their rights. Unity is key to change I feel, in all these matters. It's never easy though, however much you know you are in the right you face a long, uphill and very expensive battle, and again just how wrong is that?

maria

I hear with what you are saying, and I truly believe that if more people in the industry had your integrity then many of us wouldn't be in our position of being cheated not only by agents/lawyers/developers but by the the justice system itself. I hope you are right in saying more people are getting jusice, but I do feel that's still a lottery because the chance of getting involved with those with no integrity, honesty, or trustworthyness will remain far to high without change to implementation of the law and common sense with regards to delays in hearings/sentence and just doing the right thing for those obviously cheated.

Rixxy

I believe there are far far many more who were swindled like this who do not speak up because of pride, feeling naive, or just don't want the mental hassle of it all, and who can blame them in some ways? They made their decision, and just want to be left alone to make the best of it.  It takes alot of guts to come out and admit the truth as poppyseed has done, and good people should never have had to go through with being cheated because they feel they have no option. That can never be right.

Dear All,

thank you all for the latest posts, perhaps we are getting somewhere slowly.

Poppyseed,

that is what I have been told before in pm's but that is the first time as an open forum message, of course I cannot understand why you completed and I blame you all for it, it seems so obvious that you encouraged the fraud, just like the lawyer it could not have happened without you.

Generally, in open forum, those that wish to make the best of things criticise us for not completing and contributing to the communal fund they use to try to finish the development, as best possible.

As I have said many times the lawyer is the main criminal, he facilitated it and made it happen, he knew what he was doing and how bad the court system was but he facilitated it again by persuading you to complete. You in turn completed his evil work by complying. However you were certainly not alone, your compliance and the ridiculous contract used which has no useful specification or brochure attached, together facilitated matters into a routine industry approach and scandal.

In balance of course the boom was in full flow and no doubt there was the feeling that anything was worth something and would zoom in value as goodstich's property did.

My case was different in that I was spending life savings/inheritance money and had to show good value, of course I had help, my eldest daughter saw the completed property first, followed by the surveyor and both were shocked by it.

To my mind your lawyer should not have arranged your notary appointment until you were fully satisfied. But there again who was he really working for?

Maria,

how many people have actually got useful money back into their account, very few are known about, if any.

When is the contract going to be modified to include all the communal facilities fully specified and usable?

Regards

Norman

Norman, of course we should have stood firm and demanded what we had been promised, but to be honest it was nowhere near as bad a situation as you found yourself in. The house was the size it was supposed to be but some of the modifications we had paid extra for hadn't been done and the garden hadn't been landscaped as promised. It also now transpires that the 3rd phase with extra facilities wont be built, but that wasn't known at the time. However the house was well built. Another problem we had was that unknown to us the lawyer had told the developer we would be in Spain to sign on a specific date, but somehow he forgot to tell us. Even when we contacted the lawyer to arrange a date for signing he didn't tell us we had supposed to be there several weeks earlier.........so when when  got to the notary the developer said we had deliberately delayed signing so they were cancelling the contract. We were expecting to sign with the  condition the developer did the modifications we had paid for. At the notary we were told we could pursue legal action but it could take 2 years and no guarantee of winning. So we decided to avoid any further stress and take it as it was, this took 3 days to resolve, the worst three days of my life as this was our life savings that we couldn't afford to lose. And in hindsight and what others have said since we do think the lawyer was in cahoots with the developer, some say he was related in some way, and there are even rumours that the notary was on the take.......

As I have acknowledged our case is trivial to many others who have been really stitched  up and lost so much,  although it felt like the end of the world at the time.

A colleague of my husband told us he was hoping to buy in Spain. We advised him not to at the moment but if he was going to ignore that advice suggested he take a look at EOS and use a lawyer who contributes to this forum. He did check the forum out and has engaged the services of lawyer from here, rock on EOS!

Regards, Poppyseed

norman

I feel you are being far to harsh on Poppyseed.  Many victims of the system wont come forward in unity if they feel they are going to be ridiculed for their decision, when in reality they felt they had no option at that time. Who would stand up for them then.......... who is standing up for us now?  Despite the support we are getting from some smashing people on this forum, as far as justice goes, we tread a long and lonely path. I don't think those like Poppyseed encouraged fraud, they were certainly victims of it though!

I agree that in an ideal world, everyone like you say would not have completed, but can we really blame people for not wanting to go what we have been through?  The time, the money, the stress, who wants or can even do that?

I will never blame the victims, but will always blame those who all but took their option to defend their rights, away from them. The system has failed far more than those coming forward.

Dear Poppyseed,

thank you and please forgive my ignorance of your case, as you say it was completely different and somewhat lesser than my situation.

Whilst I say, I blame everyone involved who has helped create the standard industry culture of treating the client as a sucker to be taken. I am condemning no one,  except the lawyers, certainly not you.

However one gets embroiled, at every stage one must make decisions based on one's own personal circumstances and frankly I do not yet accept Maria's belief in the future, let alone goodstich's and Chimp's hopes for government and EU changes, no matter how much needed they may be.

It is even not easy to criticise your lawyers actual final advice about getting your deposit back, that bit was probably quite right, but he should have at least got a discount for you for the items not done.

In which case there would have been no point in risking your deposit, you would have done the right thing. Which on balance you probably did anyway, as goodstich points out the odds are stacked against us.

Thank you again.

Regards

Norman

It's OK guys, I think we know we're all on the same side!

Regards, Poppyseed