Deals at Polaris World

oh sorry Spanhod, I counted your MDF arguemnt a little toothless - not a deal breaker. it meets specification.  whatever those of us that have completed say, you will always be right and we will always be wrong.  Still look forward to sitting on my balcony this summer, next summer, the summer after that knowing that I have made the correct decision, as the development continues and hopefully the economy does improve for all of us.

icspain

Just to balance, my partner builds beautiful million £+ houses on extremely affluent estates in the South East, he has just told me that it is quite normal to have MDF skirtings fitted.   Congratulations icspain on your completion - hope to join you soon.

Anita

Again just to  balance things the doors, door frames, etc on RODA are MDF and this is a normal construction material both in Spain and the UK. It does not mead because it is MDF it is any lesser quality but simply more often than not a practical material to use

I have operated my business in Spain for almost 5 years now and inspected properties on many sites, properties from lowest prices to millions of euros each, and have been involved in litigation supporting buyers, and I maintain my independance from the developer and any agent

I have not bought property on Corvera, I do not sell property, I do not operate a rental businessor receive any money form the developers so I have no axe to grind either way

I also communicated regularly with Maria but have my own legal support contacts locally that I use to support buyers

People that know and have met me, that have used the service know that I will not take any nonsience from the developers and for the record I msut state that on this site we are seeing normal snagging defects

The advice that I provide is based on my specialised knowledge and experience gained from operating this business in Spain and I hope that I am qualified to provide this advice

Yes the financial situation has hit the developers hard, some poor investors on developments including La Tercia Real, Fortuna Golf, Ochando Golf and Finca Parcs have lost everything as they haven´t even got bank guarntees

I think that if people continue to compare the finish of RODA with Corvera as I have already stated that the build meets the specification that all buyers have been given, it is a totally different site with different designs for properties

I don´t quite understand the comments regarding late completion, I know that there was some confusion over building licences, but all sales contracts have to contain an agreed completion date and, if the developers exceed that date by 6 months then there is a right to cancel the contract and get a refund and compensation

If a buyers personal circumstances change, if they loose their job and can prove that they cannot get a mortgage Spanish consumer law allows them to cancel the contract and get a full refund as there is good consumer law to cover this

If however, because of the fall in the property prices generally, or because if the fall in the euro a buyer then decides to cancel, thnks that perhaps they can walk away from a contract loosing their deposit then I believe that they may be in for a shock as many more developers will be pursuing their contract rights to recover all of the money through the courts in Spain and the UK  

If people believe that they can cancel on the basis on the facilities not being available, from day 1, again they may have problems as proven by the test cases at Polaris World, where because there were no details in the sales contract and because the developer is not saying that they will not deliver the facilities eventually, the courts decided that there was no case for refunds 

We have carried out a number of inspections and with 1 exception everybody has been delighted with the properties, the site and have completed so again I can only feedback information from the people that have visited

For this reason I think that some people shown perhaps hold their comments until they have visited the development which is now open entry as the driving range is open

I accept that yes renting out these properties, in the early stages of the development, before the facilities are open will be difficult, but this is no different than for any new development, where it takes between 12 - 18 months to establish

The fact is that if you are relying on rental income to pay your mortgage over this period you are going to be disappointed and poorer

Now I know that I will probably get some abuse from this post but all I am trying to do is be honest and explain things the way that they really are in Spain at the moment 

Hi Roy

Before the proverbial hits the fan :) just wanted to say, reference to late completion is because anyone purchasing at Corvera's release were told completion would be June 2007 for Phase I.  Unfortunately Calidonia's Contract for Phase I (not sure about following phases) did not state a completion date, this I now understand is not legal.  Our Lawyer is totally independent and she did point out that our Contract did not have a completion date, but we didn't think it would be a problem - naivety I know.  Within those years, purchasers circumstances may have changed and with the global economic crisis you can understand their pressure/frustration  (I'm sure others will call it something else) at the lateness of delivery.  I signed my Contract in May 2005, that is a very long time to be patient.  Luckily, our circumstances have not changed and we are, therefore, happy to continue with our purchase even though it is now costing a vast amount of money more than we had budget for.

Anita

This message was last edited by Anita on 18/07/2009.

This message was last edited by Anita on 18/07/2009.

Wow some really interesting points here from Roy and Anita.

It is the case that the Corvera contract doesn't have an actual calendar date but states that completion will be 18 months from the building license.  I guess that a lot of purchasers may have believed that the licences were actually in place when they purchased their properties as would be the norm in the UK and was documented by a lot of purchasers' deposit paperwork.  Whether this is illegal is I believe case for interpretation. 

Anita's solicitor clearly felt that this was not OK but at least she was made aware of it.  I think that many purchasers who entrusted their solicitor to sign the deeds were probably not. 

In defending this open ended contract, a solicitor may argue that the purchaser should have been fully aware that the license was not granted as reference to a completion date 18 months from this time is clearly made in the contract.  Therefore this issue may be open to a judge's interpretation.

Roy's mention of the case with Polaris World and facilities is also interesting.  I believe that unless hearings are made in the highest courts then test cases are not relevant.  At a local level the judge will merit each case on its own and therefore the outcome of other local trials should in theory be irrelevant.

Even if reference were made, the situation at Polaris world is different in that the judge probably entrusted Polaris World to eventually produce the facilities that fall under their own branded name.  In the case of Corvera it is blatantly clear that purchasers were promised a hotel (and facilities) run by the De Vere group which clearly is contestable.  Look at the example of Roda to see the relevance of this point.

Hence we are in a bit of a mess!!!

Hi All

there are two small clues in the name of the development, both of which have not been completed, so i do not know how anyone can compare corvera with polaris with regard to what was advertised

I am sure roy is very profficient in what he does with regard to snagging and his building knowledge, i also understand why his posts are very positive, after all he has a buisness to run.

I am sure that if he had paid approx 264,000 euros for what should be a five star resort, and what is actually been delivered to date he would not be quite so positive.

please leave any comments it to the lawyers to try and sort out what is going to be a long legal process, who really knows the outcome of any legal process, the truth is no one, not untill all the facts are laid out.

From my own personal point of veiw i am very dissapointed in the way i have been treated by calidinia and the length of time i have been waiting, the unrealistic dates given since signing up in 2005.

I also think that Calidona realised they could save considerable cost in materials learning from Roda.

I really believe that calidona as a company will be seveally damaged due to clients seeking to claw back their deposits or refusing to complete and loosing their deposits if that is what it takes.

I managed to keep positive for three years but the current climate and lack of facilities have pulled me down, the dream has died for me, i want all the advertised amenities to enjoy now while i still can, not in another 5 to 10 years.

I do wish anybody competing the very best and i truly hope everything promised is eventually completed and you all enjoy the development, sadly it will not come quickly enough for me.

dave

 Agreed Russ, it surely is a bit of a mess.

Its very difficult to comment on the legalities of this situation as 1. i am not a lawyer and 2. like you say each case is judged on its own merits/demerits.

Roy i appreciate your views and comments however it should be said that although you try and distance yourself away from any direct relationship with Calidona and for having an "interest" in the development, you make a living directly from those that are completing at Corvera,so it is most definitely in your interest that as many people complete as possible. It is also a good form of advertising posting on here, so even though i am sure your intentions are good at the end of the day you are also a businessman and if i were in your business i would do exactly the same.

I am sure you have a lot of experience in the spanish property market but as stated above lets leave the legal "facts" to those that know. You mentioned in your post that Calidona will be trying to go through the u.k courts to force payment of full amounts, have you heard of any cases of this actually happening with any other place? or are you just repeating the scare mongering that the developer is putting out there? Considering you claim to have no direct relationship with Calidona how do you know this for certain??

I genuinely hope that it ends up being a great place to be but i am afraid Calidona have not delivered what was promised and what we all bought into.So why the hell should we still want to buy it? I am in a lucky position that i could complete if i wanted to but i am afraid i along with a lot of others feel very let down by this company. Recession or no recession this should have been delivered 2 years ago, if that had happened there would be no complaints.But calidona got greedy over stretched themselves and down right lied to all of us. They now have the cheek to start getting shitty with us and making threats and bullying to try and get our money...sorry but as far as i am concerned they can poke it. We will let the lawyers do their thing.

regards

Over the years I have been accused of many thngs, most of them by the developers or their legal representatives but it can be proven by my posts on numerous other threads which include details on the rights to complete, the importance of the COH and queries over valuations that encouraging people to complete based on my findings is soemthing that I have never done

Key to my postings is to present a sensible balanced view based on facts and you only have to look through other threads on this forum, the articles that I publish to see just how unpopular I am with some lawyers and developers, even RODA on occassions and certainly without any bias towards the developers

If Calidona fail to complete on their commitments relating the the repairs of the snagging, connections of utilities or if we find a significant defect it will, as can be proven from the RODA thread, be reported on this forum because I am certainly not influenced by anything that I am told by the developer

One of the reasons that I created the completion guide for each resort is because of the lack of clear information on the process and the individuals rights.

The sample reports of properties on the development, actually on their style of property, give people carrying out their own inspections know what to look but the fact is that the developers hate us because we cost them money and have tried on numerous occassions to stop us trading

Moving on to me being positive about the development my comments are only based on what I have seen and the feedback from the 16+ buyers who´s properties I have checked,  with them present at the inspections,  and their feedback plus the condition of the properties

If I was a buyer on this, or any other new development at the moment yes I would be very unhappy, not because of the properties but because of the state of the market in Spain both in terms of the property market and rental opportunity

I have recently purchased  another property and even though I rely on new properties for my living, and I do not sell properties, in the current market conditions I advise people to buy a resale property, on an established development, where you know all of your real costs, and because there are some real bargains on the market 

Most of the problems start with the contract and unfortunatley some buyers who in the past have believed everything they have been told by agents, buy 2 and by the time you complete you can sell one and the profit will pay for the first property.

Typically they are directed to lawyers by the agents that are not quite as independant as they should be, and have signed up without really understanding or querying the contract terms. It is interesting that some of these lawyers, who have professional liability insurance are being sued so this will be worth watching.

Surely the problems here started when lawyers and agents  advised clients to sign a contract that allowed Calidona  to do what they did, form what I understand to sign a contract where the buiding licence in place, very common in early days, but they seem to get away without any blame.  

I have also tried to explain, on another thread for Corvera that yes it is going to be very tough to rent these properties, almost impossible without facilities, that in any new development it takes between 12 - 18 months to develop a rental business and that if you rely on rental income for the early phases you will fail, this is fact based on known history of other local developments like Hacienda Requelme

The legal system in Spain is lengthy, expensive and to this day still surprises me with some of the judgements and I get involved in some case most months supporting clients.Developers have certainly changed their attitude because of the credit crunch and because they cannot easily resell the property, yes some have just cancelled contracts and  kept the deposits but in 3 specific developments, 2 in Almeria and one in The Costa Blanca the developer has taken the buyer to Court for the full amount of the contract, won the cases and is now enforcing the judgement, under the terms of EU Law, in the UK

There are also 3 other developments that I am aware of where cases in the Courts are pending, one thread with watching is Porto Fino

What I didn´t say was that Calidona are going therough the UK Courts as first of all any company has to obtain a judgement in a Spanish Court.

In these cases the developer has to be very carefull, they have to make sure that the property is finished, that it has a COH, that EVERYTHING stipulated in the contract is in place, but on each of these cases have been won by the developer but perhaps with Calidona they are just reaching a stage where they can take this type of action, I dont know, I am not a lawyer

Same if you need to cancel a contract based on a change in personal circumstances, if you cannot get a mortgage etc as you cannot cabcel the contract until you are required to complete on the property and have 3 mortgage refusals as proof

Being honest have Calidona have said that they will take action against people that refuse to complete, yes, but this is a lengthy and costly process for them so will they do it, don´t know but it is ceratinly not me scare mongering but yes I will accept some guilt for repeating what I have been told by Calidona staff

Yes by posting on these forums it is good advertising for my sevices but a lot of what I do is also free and I believe helpfull including the lobbying that we have been involved in locally for the developments without a COH, the little known get out cclause for people who´s circumstances have changed and I will continue to provide The FACTS in the movements on this development with the intenion of helping buyers who after all pay my wages

A question for Roy -

In terms of the difference in building materials - I have to say that it was explained to me at the time of purchase that the quality would be slightly lower on Corvera and I accepted this as in fact the prices on Corvera were also slightly lower.

One other thing however that does concern / interest me is how Corvera fits into the scheme of things in terms of its environmental regulations.  When I've had snagging done in the UK this is always somethng that I have had checked eg correct windows, insulation, membranes for moisture circulation etc.

I am aware of the strict laws in Spain that govern environmental considerations -

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/etap/pdfs/sept06_construction_norm_spain.pdf

clearly aspects such as the heating of hot water through solar means is not evident on Corvera. 

Roy when carrying out your snagging do you check that the materials used in construction meet the legal environmental standards?

Do you have any idea as to why Corvera does not have hot water tanks on the roof - tops?

I know that many people would hate this idea asthetically but I would rather find this out now than be faced with retrospective works.  This could be particularly important for the penthouses.  I'm not scare-mongering - my guess is that because the intial plans for Corvera were put in before this law came into force, they may be exempt.  However it is the case that the final licenses were granted after the new environmental laws came in.

First a snagging inspection in the UK or Spain is a material and specification check but does not include areas that cannot be reached for example you cannot see the thickness of insulation without breaking into walls.

Snagging is a visual inspection of areas including the walls ceilings windows doors etc wnere yes we are checking thet the windows are to specification, are kite marked and are not damaged, that the sealed units are sealed

The building specifcations and ,aterials are also part of the check by the local buildings inspectors including some checks prior to the COH being issued

On the subject of solar water heating yes yo are correct that this is based on the dates for granting of the licences and I have actually asked the question and been told that they can prove that these dates mean that they do not have to install solar in these properties and agian the granting of the COH is proof of this

This is something that if you have any concerns over can easily be resolved by your lawyer  

Hi,

I have been involved in successfull litigation before - it does take time and is expensive. I am very lucky - financially any scenario regarding completion or the lack of completion suits me - however, I will not accept being led by the nose by a developer or 'independent' solicitor. A lot depends on how determined you are, how financially strong you are and who your solicitor is. Everyone has an opinion but the problem is always comparing 'apples to apples'. Case law is useful, but no two circumstances are really the same - that is why we have courts.  

No matter how noble the sentiments, I don't think anyone can really be truly objective if the success of their bussiness depends on it. I don't like scare mongering, but, given that I know how many people are taking legal action, and the number of legal groups there are - I think that there is cause for concern. Take this whichever way you want.

Regards,

Ash

Thanks for your reply Roy - I would recoomend that anyone who si completing does employ a professional snagger.

The materials in the UK that could be inspected and are accessible are in loft spaces - that's why I made that reference - thanks again - Russ

You wouldnt buy a house in the UK without having it surveyed so why would you do it when you are 2000 miles away in a country where you dont speak the language. Snagging is all well and good but proves nothing and is useless if you ever need to take legal action against a builder etc. There are a couple of english speaking fully qualified surveyors who cover the area. One is Mark Paddon (advantage building Surveys) and one is Daniel Gonzalez Aranda.

Roy, (with you 100%), you may as stated have a slight professional interest in the number of completions at corvera as this will probably turn out to be the bulk of enquiries for your services and therefor income over the next year or so. I find it unbelievable that you would be swayed to the developers side though as you would soon earn a reputation as such and prospective clients would then start to move away and employ  somebody elses services for snagging. However I do believe we will start to see more less employed lawyers suggesting that they will be able to retrieve peoples deposits should they wish to pull out of the purchase contracts, as they will be short of work should they not get these cases. They of course will suggest that they are on the purchasers side and not just out to keep themselves in paid employment.

Re: MDF I have my own Home Improvement firm here in the Uk and would advise anybody having windowcills or the like fitted in a conservatory or any window that has direct sun and or high heat areas to use this material or tiles instead of fitting natural wood which WILL twist and warp or split with the heat!

As for marble floors, you can keep them! Give me tiles that dont scuff and dull after a fortnight any day. Plus you can replace a cracked tile far easier than a tightly bonded chipped marble one.

PAM I actually disagree with the statement that you have made regarding snagging and I have personally been involved in a number of lagal cases, which the buyers have won and where I have represented the but¡yers in Court, based on the initial snagging report, based on items identified in the report

I am sure that you are aware that a snagging inspection and a full structural survey are 2 very different things, snaggin is looking at material defects and specification where a structural survey is also looking at the way in which a property may have aged, the condition of the roof, and many other factors

The fact also is that 80% of people buy new houses without having a professional snagging survey. Most don´t have a structurl survey done purely a valuation report 

I still find it amazing that less than 15% of all Spanish buyers do not have a structural survey done on a resale property  

A structural survey on a resale property is normally one inspection and the big difference with a snagging service for a new property is that there is an obligation on the developer to repair items.

You will not normally have any services connected and therefore the service, unlike a survey on a resale property will require a number of visits, often more than 5 per property, returning to check that repairs have been made, that no other defects have been created and that items such as AC, heating wiring all work and that the gas are plumbing aren´t working

Many people can carry out a first inspection looking at paint plaster fittings etc and we regularly carry out inspections for buolders and surveyors but where we really earn our money is on the 2nd 3rd 4th checks  which include the utilities and even the fitted furniture pack very important when yes you are 2000 miles away

One additional service we provide is that we even check properties, where the buyers may have done the initial check and list, to see that the repairs have been complteted correctly beacuse we onsite so often

True story in 2 properties when we visited for a furniture fit check to find the water off and realise that the furniture fitters had gone through pipes when fitting mirrors and just tunred the water off to cover their mistakes

On the legal front it is vital that the snagging list becomes an exhibit at The Notary when you complete and adds to any legal action that you may at a later date bring against the developer

I can prove that your statement Snagging is all well and good but proves nothing and is useless if you ever need to take legal action against a builder etc. isn´t true

Having been in buiness for 5 years, having checked thousand of properties for buyers, represented them with leagal disputes and successfull actions I would therefore ask that you think carefully before makeing such a sweeping statement

I don't understand why Roy is getting a hard time?  He is only trying to make a living and I appreciate the fact that he spends time giving detailed answers.  I'm not "sucking up" - I've no reason to.

Thank you for your comments Russ but I don´t think people are having a just they are making statements that may be outside their area of understanding

One of the first things that I do when I read a post from somebody like PAM is look at their profile and old posts to see previous comments and when you see no details and that 3 of the 5 posts are knocking local businesses and that 2 are promoting businesses you get a little suspicious because they could be anybody

I speak to the Spanish surveyors on a regular basis including Daniel and a company called PSI who operate in the Costa Del Sol, we swap war stories, they ask me about site conditions and changes in local regulations and I pass them work for surveys on resale properties

I promote professional surveys on new and resale properties

When I explain to them what we do for the charge they laugh at me, say there´s no way that they would go back 5-6 times to a property, the deal is unlmted visits till the defects are resolved

I have been doing this a long time now, I was one of the first people to do this in Spain, I have lots of satisfied clients and don´t have to rely on a single development for work, but what I have developed is a specialised service, dedicated to the snagging process, which works.

Any information I provide is free and without obligation

I do get cross when such a sweeping statement is made regarding the legality of snagging

I have just re-read my message and agree it was misleading.  It wasnt meant to be a go at snagging but more to do with people having surveys AS WELL.  (it was the day after the repeat of Houses from Hell Spain which always anoyes me).

I look after houses all over the region and one of mine is on a big resort near Mazzaron, it had cracks in the paint when it was snagged, the snagger duly noted it  (NOT ROY I MIGHT ADD), it was re-plastered and then was signed off by the client. The house is now all but falling down. The builder is using the snagging report AGAINST the owner saying they knew about the problem and signed it off (clearly not the intention).

There is a significant difference between seeing a flaw in a property and having the flaw repaired to finding out the cause , and this is where a survey comes in. I again re-iterate I am not saying dont use Roy or another snagging company but have a survey done as well. The 10 year builders guarantees are only as good as the builders themselves.  

Thank you for the response and clarification but one key point from your response is that the client signed off the snagging repairs, when they what you should do is employ a company that, not only does the first inspection, but re-visits to check the repairs have been completed professionally and supports the buyer if there is a problem

I still get queries and help people where we checked their properties 2-3 years ago

You wouldn´t have survey and a snagging inspection done because the structural survey would include the creation of the snagging lits but could be pointless if there are no follow up visits

It is not ormally the role of the surveyor or the snagging person, in a new property, to suggest how the defect should be rectified but to record and check that the repairs are completed and that no new defects have been created when the works are done

If they are any good they should also have things like damp meters, mains testers, and gas detection equipment ,but most don´t 

Surveyors and snagging organisations should have professional liability insurance cover

I bet I can tell you who the builder is on this property with a problem, chances are that it is non-conventional construction, pre-cast concrete slabs, and linked into some of the bad publicity on the TV, developer name starting with M***

When I say the owner signed it off, it was actaully done by a snagger but I meant that they agreed that the cracks had been covered. It was nearly a year before they apeared again.

Roy, Is there no way you could work with a Surveyor so they did the full structural report and then you could do the follow up on the snagging rather than the structural issues (as hopefully there wouldnt be too many structural problems). If this service was available I would recommend it to everyone believe me.