Is living in Spain really that bad now???

Hi Fergus,

As Justin says, I think it depends on where in Spain you are.  I have been in Barcelona recently and there didn't seem to be any sign of a recession there.  Madrid also seems to be doing ok too and there are still plenty of jobs in both these cities if you have the right skills and speak Spanish.  My wife is from Jaen, rural Andalucia and we were there a couple of months ago and things seem to be fine there as well.  I guess farming is fairly recession proof.

However, the Costa del Sol is a different story.  It is feeling the full effects of the economic depression and is a bit of a basket case to be honest.  There's thousands of unfinished properties and properties lying empty, waiting for buyers, empty shops that have had to close and the area is generally looking a bit of a mess.  The bars and restaurants seem to be quieter and the whole place has lost the buzz it once had. 

There is also absolutely no jobs along the coast, unless you want to be a lap dancer or work in a 'sauna'.   The only jobs down here are in Gibraltar, which is booming and has saved a lot of people down here, myself included.

Saying all that, I do like it on the coast.  The weather, food and general lifestyle are great. It is only the lack of secure employment that would make us reluctantly go back to the UK.  

Dear All,

two very slightly different posts from exactly the same area.

it seems that a lucrative employment post together with the weather makes it all great.

Techno you have fallen on your feet employment-wise and without going to Gib'

Lucky chap and still with UK backup and only 41, Wow!

How good is that?????

Enjoy the tub

Regards

Norman

Just one point of view, of course:

Britain is the worst place to live in Europe

Interesting article, thanks Roberto.

I think the most interesting aspect is that Spain has the lowest average earnings and also the second longest average working week.  These are not generally condusive to happiness!

Is it the weather then thak makes all the difference?

Justin

But Spain also has the most holidays - Jeez, there's another one in a week or so.

I think this oft quoted thing about working hours is somewhat misleading. Hours spent "at work" is very different from time spent being productive. Have you ever spent a day watching council workers digging a road up? Very enlightening!

It's all about the "work to live, or live to work" mentality, isn't it?

Just read the article and the reader comments, then scrolled to the bottom and realised this is just another Daily Mail expose...

The main point of the report suggests that the per-capita post tax income in the UK is over £35000...At first I thought 'you're joking' but when you take into consideration the massive salary and perk increases awarded to Senior Management of the major Corporations and Banks which are out of all proportion to the 'RPI increases' awarded to the overall workforce, it all makes sense..

My BAe Pension RPI increase this year amounted to just 24 pence for the full year, whilst the outgoing CEO of BAe left with a handshake of Salary and Shares amounting to over £5 Million. His pension increase using the same RPI Figure amounted to over £7000;  And the antics of the Royal Bank of Scotland just dont bear thinking about! That's just two examples of the great divide between the 'Haves' and the 'Have Nots...' Something desperately wrong somewhere.

In the meantime the city whizz kids are having a field day screwing around with the exchange rates...and no doubt amassing small personal fortunes with the Bank of England's blessing and Brown and his cronies are doing nothing...oh sorry...yes the Foreign Office have increased the number of advisers assisting Age Concern (Spain). So much for their statement that they had a package to help those ex-pats experiencing problems in Spain. Fortunately I do not include myself among those folks.

But anyway...Back on Thread...!

As for whether things are all that bad in Spain; my wife is over in the UK at the moment seeing her kids and cant wait to get back 'home.' Apart from when she's with her family she's hating every minute. Its cold, wet, expensive, unsociable and in the cities a dangerous place to be. Her trip to see her daughter 75 miles away was going to cost £44 for a weekend return by rail; thats more than we paid for her  flight to the UK; needless to say she went by coach; took the same amount of time and cost £10 when I booked it on line from here...!

She wanted to carry on her internet interests whilst she is away but my laptop is permanently broken so I suggested that she buy one of the new low priced netbooks from PC World; listed on line at £259, she bought it at the Portsmouth shop; final cost £415. So its no good saying we get ripped off in Spain; sure we do, but Britain definitely takes the biscuit for that...

So to anyone even contemplating coming out here to live I would suggest the following;

1) Do your homework; then do some more,

2) Moneywise you will need generally 50% more than you think you need.

3) Don't come over here thinking you can just walk into a job...unless you can offer something very specialised and speak fluent Spanish it aint gonna happen.

4) If you are bringing building, plumbing or decorating experience and hoping to set up in business, don't bother...we have   enough  Brit 'tradesmen' already and many going bust every day...

5) If your dream house hasn't been built yet, it probably never will be... so don't even think about off-plan or buy to rent..

Nuff Said...

Roberto: Have you ever spent a day watching council workers digging a road up? Very enlightening!

Actually yes: they are doing it in our village as we speak; in an effort to get work for people in the campo the local authorities have decided to renew the main drains and water supply pipes. In the two months since they started they have completely dug up two streets road and pavements each about 3.5 metres wide and no more than 100 metres long in total and laid the pipes. The new pipes have been covered over with loose scree and just left 'to settle' they say...They are now digging up another street. Problem is late October / early November is the rainy season up here and when it rains...it RAINS! I have absolutely no doubt that all the loose scree so carefully laid, levelled and flattened will all be washed down the hill and into the main road through the village!

But hey,what if it does? No Problema! We can do it all again!  And then of course we'll have the snow and it will be too cold to lay the concrete top dressing....!

But at least the authorities are doing something constructive. Here in Granada we have a brand new 15Kms Supertram System being installed and RENFE are working flat out on extending the AVE system from Seville to Granada. From Antequera this means a completely new route since the existing  trackbed to Granada is a horizontal and vertical switchback and has a 40kph limit much of the way.

In Britain...nada...zilch; one equivalent AVE route from a London Station which by rights should have been closed at nationalisation in 1948 and the old Eurostar Terminal at Waterloo is being allowed to decompose and collapse because 'it will cost too much to integrate it into the rest of the station'.

Capital spending by private companies in Spain may have just about dried up; look no further than the shortage of Hire Cars this summer, but State and Public spending is ongoing. The outlook is good; it may take a while but ...

Said it before; would I go back to the UK? Kicking and Screaming is the only way.

fb

As someone who owns both in the UK and in Spain, I think it time that I spoke up for my native country.  We bought in Spain so that in retirement we could spend half of the year in the sun (winter) and half in the UK (summer).  We felt that the UK was too cold for us in the winter and Spain too hot in the summer. 

Our place in Spain is comfortable and well furnished with all the accutriments of modern (UK) living and once retired we decided to spend some time in Spain.  Frankly the weather was not that much better than the UK, mostly rain, interspersed with some pleasant sunshine and a bit warmer, but still needing heating.  This summer has been spent at home in the UK (Kent) and has been fantastic!  Plenty of sunshine, but not too hot for us and above 25 degrees C most of the time with almost no rain.  Here we live pretty much in the country, but with our bus passes, busses every 10 mins and stops 200 yds away on the main road we can freely explore the county without fuel cost and the need to find/fund parking or fighting traffic.

As for income, the £35,000 quoted was household income (and didn't state gross or nett).  We don't get that, but with what we get from the state and our pension funds, just occasionally dipping into savings,we can just manage to keep both places afloat.  We live in a low crime area with excellent communications and now have a new high speed train service to the capital, should we desire to go.  Shopping when we do it is incomperable, in Spain we struggle to find what we want.

In all we have a comfotable life here in Kent (better than most I guess) and we just don't feel comfortable in Spain (although not because we have been burgled).  We don't know why, we just don't and in general, regret buying there.  Health issues will keep us away this winter, but the collapse of Spainish property prices preclude selling up, so we will just wait and see. 

In general, in spite of rampant PC and disingenuous politicians we find our lives better in the UK and it would cost us a lot less to turn up our heating in winter and not have to support our place in Spain.

Finally, the real point that I started to write this is that of buying a computer on line vs going to PC World.  A few weeks ago, I wanted an ethernet switch (lets not get too technical), but I decided the cheapest on the market was from Amazon (£17) that was until I discovered that it would cost me another £17 in postage & packing.  So I went back on line and saw that PC world offered the same product for £18.  OK, PC World have a store only 2 miles away and on the bus route.  Armed with my bus pass, there would be no p&p, but the cost in store would have been £28!  However, I discovered that I could order on line, but had the option of reserving the product and picking it up in store at £18.  How illogical is that? I am now the happy operator of multiple computers.

All in all our UK life is pretty good and our experience in Spain fails to match up.  Before buying a fixed Spanish "asset", we used to travel the world, and still could without the money pit, but it was our choice and we don't complain (it would be nice if we could get even a fraction of our money out though).  If you love Spain, we are very happy for you, but it's not for us.

Xetog

Yes, in lots of ways I'm inclined to agree with you. 

I have never spent July or August in Spain - too hot for the likes of me!!  However, most of my friends avoid going to Spain at the same time as myself - they think that I'm a jinx - as I always have rain.  My last holiday (have been back in the UK now for 3 weeks) was no exception!!  This summer, in England was really great, lots of BBQ's etc. 

That being said, I have no regrets buying in Spain.  However, I have come to realise in my part of Spain (unlike where I live in England) I could not practically manage without a car.  Where I live here there are great public transport links.  In my part of Quesada they have cancelled the bus routes near to my home ....... and as for the distance to the nearest train station......!!!  On the safety aspect sometimes I feel like a prison in a home with grilles over all the doors and window, but not so safe walking along some of the streets.  Not sure why, as the crime rate doesn't seem to be high.

I had tenants in my house (I'm not going to repeat the experiment again) but the amount of electric that they were using, both in the summer and winter, was higher than my UK electric bills!!  And my home in England is twice the size of the Spanish one!

I have studied Spanish for quite a few years - initially with the intention of living there - but am content to just have somewhere to go in Spain to "recharge the batteries" - because I enjoy the relaxed life style. 

There are crooks in every country - although very often the hard part is recognising them before it is too late!!

By the way, if anyone wants to avoid the rain I will be in Spain in January!!!

xetog

that's an interesting post with contrasting views fom foxbat's. Just goes to show that what's good for some isn't for others.

As someone who used to love Spain and tried to buy in Spain but fell victim to the dreadful Spanish justice system, I'm aware that my opinions are bound to be a bit one sided, (at least until I get justice?). Having said that, I have always in the past been very critical of the UK, (and still am in many ways), but ever since getting my head round the Spanish system, I realise just how good life can still be in the UK is if you live in a decent part of it. I would love warmer summers and less crowding/traffic, slower pace of life etc, but I realise there is a price for that, and on balance with all that's going on in Spain with regards corruption/lack of regulation/poor justice/rising costs etc,  I'm not sure if the pro's in Spain really would outway the cons any more for me?  Will always be a holiday destination for me though. 

Each to his/her own and like you, I wish all the best to those who have found Spain works for them. I always thought that was what I wanted also, but have had a real reality check in the last few years.

Foxbat: at least the authorities are doing something constructive...........State and Public spending is ongoing. The outlook is good

They're doing exactly the same here on the coast, and the exact same applies re: the rain. Nuts. And I'm not convinced that this kind of work is a good sign anyway. It's all part of Plan E (a New Deal?) I'm not an expert on politics or economics, but how is all this being funded? (Rhetorical)

Xetog: Shopping when we do it is incomperable, in Spain we struggle to find what we want

I'm sorry your Spanish adventure hasn't turned out as you would have hoped. I can't help but wonder if the above statement reveals a basic truth that you had to find out the hard way? If you cannot find what you want in Spain, perhaps Spain is not what you want? Living in, or even owning a property and regularly visiting, a foreign country is very different from holidaying there. Going abroad is usually about discovering and trying out new and different things. When we occasionally come across something familiar ("ooh, they've got chocolate fingers 'ere!" - Peter Kay) we're surprised and maybe delighted. But when we find ourselves lamenting the lack of, say, chocolate fingers, it's surely time to recognise that we're better off just staying home?!

Just re-read that, and think it may sound a bit rude or offensive, which wasn't my intention, so apologies. Just meant to say that Spain isn't for everyone, and there are pros & cons for both places.

** EDITED - Please respect forum rules **

edited by member. (thank you, team)

Just as a follow up to my coments about PC world...i'm just back from shopping at Alcampo and Carrefour in Granada; Alcampo had the same netbook fully up and running to the same standard as PC World...259 Euros; same spec in Carrefour 269 Euros.For those considering buying a netbook Alcampo also had one at a slightly lower spec for 199 Euros....!

So far as comments made about high electricity bills out here; Now that the furore about the change of ownership of the Electricity compnies has died down we now have our meter read every two months with an estimated bill for the months when the meter is unread; given that Endesa / Sevillana have put up the bills twice this yearour average bill is around 100 Euros per month; having said that, we do use a lot of power; the house is normally active 24/7, during the Summer it is quite normal to have the aircon going until at least 3am and during the winter we have electric heating for the bathroom and bedrooms and occasionally the living room too.

Talking to my OH yesterday she commented that overall our bills are higher than the UK. Our cooking is by bottled gas and that's a bargain...one bottle tends to last around 6 months and costs around 11 Euros.

Our main heating source during the winter is a log burner and it eats logs like the Flying Scotsman eats coal! I am in the throws of stocking up with logs right now before the rains come and spoil the stock pile at our local suppliers.

This is proving to be an interestng thread; clearly Spain is OK for some but not for others...I just wish that we had had the where-with-all to move out here years ago, but in those days, pre-retirement, like most people, I had to work for a living and was commuting by car 150 miles a day, 6 days a week. Now I use the car maybe once a week for the Granada trip for shopping and maybe twice or three times a year for a trip to the Malaga cattle market ...sorry,  Airport. Costs me about 45 Euros once a month for fuel and my road tax is 75 Euros per year. Recently had my 6 monthly demand for council tax, the princely sum of 52 Euros...All of which is a sight less that I would be paying in the UK!

We had our fair share of knock-backs in the beginning, essentially brought about by a rogue Brit Builder and we finished up doing some of the reform and all of the finishing ourselves. Three years on this is still an ongoing project. Since we were living in a motorhome on a campsite at the time our house was being reformed, it wasn't the most comfortable of starts to our new life, particularly in view of the fact that at the house where there should have been a door there was a gaping great door size hole in the wall throughout our first winter and whilst we had a flat roof / sun terrace we had no way of accessing it because our builder couldn't or wouldn't build an external steel staircase.

Every room in the house was left unfinished; his way of ensuring that we couldn't move in unless we paid him considerably more bucks than originally quoted. His 'workforce', two sometimes three equally unskilled labourers (also Brits) appeared to spend more time in the local bar than they did at the house unless we were there to gee them up and even when they were at the house our 'builder' would pull them off the job to go to a house in the next village where an earlier project of his had gone hopelessly wrong. Our adventure with his /  their version of drainage is well documented elsewhere on the forum.

He finally disappeared off the job some seven months into the project which he had originally quoted at ten weeks....never to be seen or heard from again. Which is another reason why I advise would be Brit builders to stay the hell away from Spain; there may be the odd one or two who know what they are doing but most are Vaqueros...

Puts me in mind of Rudyard Kipling and 'IF'...(c)

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

Most of which sounds like a pretty good grounding or pre-requiste for coming to live here!

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 After a brief nosy through most of the posts on this thread it seems clear that the positive comments on Spanish Life come from residents and most of the negative come from Holiday home owners who don't feel that Spain feels like Home.........

This to me is totally understandable.

To make anywhere feel like home you need to spend longer than a few weeks a year in your local town or village.

Home to me is about knowing your neighbours,having a local bar that you can walk into and know most people there,having new Spanish friends who you can socialise with,school activities or social activities that widens your circle of friends.

To feel safe walking anywhere you need to know the area and appreciate whether it is safe or not, a lot of the time fear comes from not being aware of the true situation, i know one poster mentioned Formentera and not feeling safe,knowing the town itself i find this strange that a sleepy,friendly little town would hold any fears for anyone,but again if you do not spend enough time in one place to get to know it then i can see how you could be a little unsure.

I think comparing Formentera with Cantebury in the Uk is a little naive, a sleepy little spanish town where you can pick a 2 bed property up for 60,000€ compared to one of the most desirable and affluent cities in the Kent Countryside!

That's alittle like saying "My morris minor does not have the same appeal as the Ferrari i keep in the garage"!

Another comment " we don't spend anytime in Spain in July and August" so you will miss all the Fiestas!!! This is the part of Spain that you should never miss,This is Spain!! meeting all the locals,sitting outside their houses untill the early hours,being invited into their houses for a meal,having street parties etc etc etc ....

I am not critising anyone for how they feel about Spain as i do not expect it to be for everyone but i can clearly see some of the reasons behind the comments.

To make somewhere feel like Home you have to work hard at it and it doesn't come overnight.

georgia;

Have to say I agree 100% with your post, especially the last sentence  

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Hi Georgia

Well, it was probably me who said about not spending July and August in Spain.  I accept that I miss out on some of the events, but even my neighbours were being driven to distraction by the heat this year!  Some, who have animals, have actually put the "For Sale" boards up and want to move to cooler parts.

I appreciate that you have to work hard at making a place "home".  Every time I go out there I try to go as a "semi-resident" and not a holidaymaker.  We have built up many friendships out there - mostly from outside the community (although not by choice) and always have a lot of people to socialise with when we are out there - and, of course, are always pleased to make new friends.  Also, we realise that we are only an "interruption" in the lives of the other people, as  they still have their friends to spend time with when we are gone.  The hard part is in sustaining friendships, so that you can go back and pick up where you left off.  Luckily, we have managed to to it.  As a "visitor" you have to do most of the leg work. to make it a home from home.  We have English and Spanish friends (non-English speaking ones).  Life can be as social or anti social as you want to make it

Maybe one of the reasons that I don't feel so safe walking in the area around my community is the fact that walkers seem to be few and far between!!  I'm sure that can't be the only one who likes to get some exercise!!

 Hi Abbbb1,

It wasn't a criticism,more of an obvious observation really.

I sometimes feel the same when i go back to see friends in the Uk.

The heat has never bothered me,i love the barmy Spanish nights,i know some people feel it more than others but the longer you are here the more you get used to it

I can't wait for the fiestas to start it reminds of the good ole days in the UK when we had street parties at the drop off a hat........

The hotter the better really........i have always hated the cold.....

It must be harder for non residents to fit straight back in when you visit.

I guess you either go for it 100% or it will always be a little fractured untill you do settle permanently.

It took me a bout a year for the homely feeling to switch countries to Spain.

I must admit i feel terrified in my old town in the UK now, i went back recently for a friends 40th and they were fighting in the streets at 8.30pm, my friends didn't even blink but i found it very unnerving.

They say Home is where the heart is............10 years ago i would have never left the UK, now i feel like i have never lived anywhere else but here.......

Hi to all,

Thanks for all the comments!! Even the negative ones!!

Just to add that when I lived in Ibiza I always found the locals very kind (if you make an effort to speak some form of Spanish, it was welcomed!!)

Negative.........you bet!!!

They still dig up the roads here too!! I have never understood why they do not complete one side of a main road, then work on the other? So you have a very busy road with temp traffic lights at the top of a hill, temp ones on the other side at the bottom, the static lights in the middle...result..........nothing moves!!! a 20 min bus journey takes 1hr 30!!!

You take a train to London Bridge...........only to be told half way that the train is now diverting to Victoria!!!!  I often had to call TFL to get confirmation as the boss used to say that was no excuse for being late!!

The postal service is in chaos......no mail for a week........then two weeks worth in one delivery..........thats not to say that the utility companies take note......they still send out threatening letters although you have just received the bill!!!

Most lines on the tube network can be closed (at intervals) at the weekends (over running works!) so its tube, bus, back on tube!

What chaos will the olympics be....London is the only capital I have ever been to that has a very very poor transport system (I have been to 32 different coutries) the most embarressing thing? Meeting tourist's from all around the world in London who ask? Why does your capital not have any public toilets that work? How do we purchase a ticket for a bus when the ticket machine is broken at the bus stop? £9.50 for fish and chips? £3.55 a pint? £2.40 a cup of coffee? The reward.......grey skies and lots of rain!!

I am still a great beliver that sunshine, decent people, relative security (man kicked to death in Trafalgar Square at 10pm!!! last week) is not too much to ask for? Quality of life is worth some sacrifice!!

Viva Espana!!! 

"The postal service is in chaos......no mail for a week........then two weeks worth in one delivery" - you nailed our local service in one! I know they have a history of striking and causing mayhem, but you cannot fully appreciate the relative efficiency and professionalism of British posties until you've tried relying on regular mail deliveries over here!!

fergpups

are you really looking at your options with both eyes open?.  I wish you all the best, but I really would take those rose coloured spectacles off before you go much further!