Is living in Spain really that bad now???

People who have not experienced just how bad the process of going through the corrupt judicial system that is carried out in the Spanish Courts is, then they cannot possibly know how stressful & traumatic the whole thing is,especially when you have won your case, but are still denied  your money back.  You have to experience it to possibly understand where the thousands of people like Goodstich are coming from..and yes, he has, in his case, every right to go on & on & on & on ad infinitum, until the day comes (If it ever does) when he gets what is rightfully his...his hard earned money back. If it irritates the hell out of you and DavidW and anyone else on this forum.. then so be it. Get over it!

Tish....you are (almost) as bad as Poppyseed in not having read what I have posted.  Why should reading anyone's account of their misfortunes 'irritate the hell' out of me or anyone?  I have said more than once (yawn...) that I have great sympathy for such people. But their experience is not the only valid one of Spain and stating otherwise seems to 'irritate the hell' out of the unlucky few -and yes, they are the few.  As far as I'm concerned, yes, they have the right to bemoan their fate wherever and whenever they see fit.  If I get fed up with it I won't read it. Simple.

For your information......Spain is not the only place where you can lose your hard-earned money over property deals. When in business we too lost hard-earned money we could not retrieve, even after winning court cases, when individuals or companies were insolvent. That is a hard fact of economic life.  So please don't think that only people posting on this forum have had experience of losing money.  We have had that experience too, many times over the years. It's what sometimes happens and you have to take such things into account.

Being cheated is bad enough. It's even worse when it distorts your whole future view of things. 

Praguepix,

I personally think there is a difference between loosing money in business and loosing money by theft,deception and fraud which has been the case for thousands of people buying property in Spain. Loosing large sums of money for any reason hurts even the richest of people. Nobody likes it.

You wrote: But their experience is not the only valid one of Spain and stating otherwise seems to 'irritate the hell' out of the unlucky few -and yes, they are the few. 

How little you know !  They are NOT a few in number.

 There were/are thousands of people who, in good faith, entered into a contract to purchase a property in Spain. All of this done under the professional care & experience of a Lawyer. (in our case a Spanish Lawyer from a Spanish firm)  They are supposed to implement  and abide by the laws of their country. Instead many of them were taking backhanders from the developers and waving through contracts full of illegal clauses and even worse, failing to get Bank Guarantees for the money paid as deposits. The number of people does not amount to a "few". In fact, there are so many people affected that it has bought about the demise of construction in Spain, thereby causing a ricochet of unemployment and business closure in the Costa's and some of the Balearic Islands.

We were assured by our Marbella based law firm that our £100,000 deposit would be held in an escrow account and NOT be passed onto the developer. Indeed, before we parted with this money, we asked again for reassurance about this point and  had, via email, assurance that this would be the case and also that we would have a BG. Both of these things were lies.  No way would my husband have parted with this money had he thought that it would be otherwise. Our biggest mistake was trusting the Lawyer.

I know that Spain is not the only country to be corrupt. It happens in the UK too.( Look at the people who trusted Grant Bovey.) It is certainly nothing like Spain though. You can 99.9% of the time trust Lawyers in the UK. For the tiny % that default, the Law Society kicks them out PDQ. In the UK Lawyers are governed  unlike Spain where the Collegio de Abogados is totally ineffectual, as I know from experience.

I know there are thousands of people who have successfully bought property in Spain. 

Tish

I think most people wronged or not accept that there are many people happy with their lot in Spain, but why many of those happy wont accept the fact there are many who have been wronged through no no fault of their own, as you and I have is a mystery?

Most of the problems boil down to lack of regulation, and if we could all stand together to change this by supporting those wronged and any moves to improve the whole system to one that can be trusted, then that would no doubt benefit all, and 'living in Spain' could be a better experience for thousands of people wronged.

T5hankyou, Tish, for a reasoned reply and I take some of your points. Goodstich - do we have to bang your head against a wall before you realise that no-one on this thread has failed to express sympathy with you and others like you?  The saddest part of your bad experience seems that it has coloured your perception to the point where anyone who expresses a mildly dissenting view is your enemy. Frankly, some very insulting posts have been directed at people whose only sin is to say that they are happy with their lot in Spain. Just look back over this thread - it really does some people no credit.

Some time ago there was a tv programme whose aim was to show the downside of life in Spain. One of the unfortunates whose sorry tale was told was a couple who had remortgaged their former council house to buy a cafe/bar in Benidorm. He was a truck-driver, she a shelf stacker, neither had any experience of running a business - they didn't even know how to tap a beer keg.  They lasted six months,not unsurprisingly, as the sight of the husband serving tea in sweat pants and a vest, displaying his tattoos and bling, was enough to deter the most thirsty customer. They knew that the cafe had been on the market for over three years but went ahead with the purchase. They are now back in the UK, jobless and with a hefty mortgage.

Another couple bought a 300000 euro apartment with a view to renting it. Unfortunately the other couple of hundred purchasers in that  community had the same idea. The apartment couldn't even raise 90000 euros at auction. The keys were returned to the bank leaving the couple with a huge debt and no savings. Most people might just have considered that other purchasers might have the same idea thus glutting the market in that urb?

An estate agent who appeared on the programme made two memorable quotes: 'Some people left their brains on the plane' and 'At one time, if you had a pulse and a passport, you could get a mortgage'. How true it seems her words were.  And just as there may be hundreds or even thousands of people who have been the victims of deception, so there may well be an equal number of the gullible, naive or just downright stupid.  Should we all feel sorry for the hapless one-time cafe owners of Benidorm?  Yes, of course - it would be hard not to be moved by their bewilderment and apprehension for their future. But should the more sensible home-owners/renters in Spain see their sad plight as anything other than their own fault? Should we all feel guilty that we are enjoying our lives here? I think not.

Rehashing bad luck stories can help in that a problem shared and getting a sympathetic hearing makes one feel supported and understood but it does nothing in itself to progress the solution to the problem. Neither should it blind one to the very many positive aspects of life here in Spain.  Viva Espana!

praguepix

My opinion and take on all this is the same as Tish. All I ask is that we all work together on this.  

Dear All,

why oh why does this person persist in likening the unfortunate victims of outright fraud and professional deception to crazed dreamers, however their unrealistic dreams were encouraged by the unscrupulous.

why is it considered stupid to trust your purchase funds to lawyers, surely it is the normal method of conducting such business?????????????????????????????????????????

the person concerned actually claims knowledge of the law and the business procedure.

this thread was a wind up from the beginning and what a wind up merchant it has spawned.

she really takes the biscuit.

clearly when a matter becomes common knowledge that everyone is supposed to know, the numbers wronged in establishing this knowledge must indeed be substantial.

once again, if you are rich enough (as a Brit) to enjoy present day Spain then please continue to do so and tell us about it, because we are members who are interested and may one day join in some form.

in the mean time why keep attacking the unfortunate victims, with or without tatoos.

kicking someone down comes to mind!!!!!!!!!!!

wonderful to hear from you again Tish and thanks for trying to put things straight in such a clear manner.

Regards

Norman

normandands

I agree, it's a horrible attitude, but one best ignored I think as much as we can. Tish's smiley put it pretty well.

Dear All,

why oh why does this person persist in likening the unfortunate victims of outright fraud and professional deception to crazed dreamers, however their unrealistic dreams were encouraged by the unscrupulous.

why is it considered stupid to trust your purchase funds to lawyers, surely it is the normal method of conducting such business?????????????????????????????????????????

the person concerned actually claims knowledge of the law and the business procedure.

this thread was a wind up from the beginning and what a wind up merchant it has spawned.

she really takes the biscuit.

Norman Sands....are you stupid as well as rude? Will you please quote from my posts where I have suggested or merely hinted at what you have accused me of?  Or do you just enjoy sounding off in your usual ignorant and offensive manner whenever someone contradicts you?  If anyone takes the biscuit it's you. So now....put up or shut up. Show evidence of what you are burbling on about.  An apology would be too much to hope for from your sort.

I will spell it out for you in as few and as easily understood words as I can: there is a difference between victims of fraud and those of their own stupidity. If you are incapable of understanding that from my posts then  your teachers clearly failed you.  Sue them.

You and Goodstich: victims of fraud (although in your case I'm not so sure....)    Cafe/bar owners : victims of their stupidity.

Did you understand that?  Was that clear enough for you? If you start slinging insults around, expect to get them back in bucketsful when even my considerable patience is strained to the limit.  So now start looking back through my posts and produce evidence for what you have so many times asserted.

You asked people who are 'rich enough' to be able to enjoy life in Spain to 'tell you about it'. Well, I suppose by your reckoning I fall into that category -at present -and I'm telling you that I am enjoying life in my large house in sunny Spain. Very much indeed.

Now you can add smugness and snobbery to the list of vices you ascribe to me, if it turns you on!!.

NOW...EVIDENCE....GO FETCH!!

Godstich...you don't want to hold out olive branches, do you. You just want to stick with the carpers and whingers. Sad.

praguepix

My opinion and take on all this is the same as Tish. All I ask is that we all work together on this.

Yes, I agree with you, goodstich. I though I'd made that clear. Could I ask what you are actually involved in that could be assisted with?

I will engage in post with you as long as your discourse is civil, which it largely has been, unlike certain other ill-mannered types on this thread.

Dear All,

good lord!!!!!!!!!!!!!

not content with one biscuit, she wants the whole packet.

Regards

Norman

praguepix

In answer to your question 'what am I involved in that could be assisted with?', that's for the 'rough justice' thread, and couldn't be much clearer!! 

So sorry to all for this going off-thread  again, but where there's  problems, so many of them come back to the same major issues.

Goodstich, I have lost count reading about your numerous posts about those who are happy in Spain should be standing together with those who have been cheated /scammed.

I do honestly believe the majority living happily here do just that and although I think the plight of those in this predicament should be constantly highlighted I  am insulted that you constantly refuse to accept that many are on your side. After all it is probably now more in the interests of those with property here to get this disgraceful situation sorted ASAP.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what else we should do If  signing petitions, supporting the marches of people whose homes are under threat, or simply warning others of the problems one can face is NOT sufficient .

I would be interested to read, what apart from the above mentioned, are you actively involved in that you think we should also be doing to help your situation? 

Dear All,

good lord!!!!!!!!!!!!!

not content with one biscuit, she wants the whole packet.

Regards

Norman

Oh Norman ......where is the evidence I asked for??   Well, of course, you can't produce it. Because I wrote none of the statements you accused me of.   I'll give you one more chance....get out your reading specs.  You may/may not need a dictionary.

Why don't you stop posting such piffle and allow people to express opinions you may not agree with without resorting to childish abuse and downright distortion of fact? If you could bring yourself to do that, you might -just might -be taken more seriously and sympathised with.

I'll sign off now as I have to grind the faces of the proles into the dust.  Your choice of biscuit wouldn't be fruit and nut, would it, old chap?

praguepix

In answer to your question 'what am I involved in that could be assisted with?', that's for the 'rough justice' thread, and couldn't be much clearer!! 

So sorry to all for this going off-thread  again, but where there's  problems, so many of them come back to the same major issues.

Yes, goodstich, I'll do that as I would be genuinely interested to know what the facts are and what is being done. As yet I haven't looked at the 'Rough Justice' thread as I feared it might be just a series of moans and whinges from the usual suspect(s).

It's clear that a lot of criminal activity has been taking place in the housing sector although the extent seems unclear and the true facts may never be made known.  I'll certainly have a look later.

praguepix

In answer to your question 'what am I involved in that could be assisted with?', that's for the 'rough justice' thread, and couldn't be much clearer!! 

So sorry to all for this going off-thread  again, but where there's  problems, so many of them come back to the same major issues.

Yes, goodstich, I'll do that as I would be genuinely interested to know what the facts are and what is being done. As yet I haven't looked at the 'Rough Justice' thread as I feared it might be just a series of moans and whinges from the usual suspect(s).

It's clear that a lot of criminal activity has been taking place in the housing sector although the extent seems unclear and the true facts may never be made known.  I'll certainly have a look later.

floella

if everyone does like you say in an attempt to change the wrongs in the system then that's great, and i'm really sorry you are offended. I think only by raising support through MP's, MEP'S, petitions, rallies and anyone we can lobby in large enough numbers to be heard is the only way? Apart from fighting my own case for nearly 8 years, that's all I've been able to do.

I only bite back when i read rubbish like 'only a few are involved'. That selfish attitude helps no one, but it's quite often said on here sadly.

As we both agree, mearures to improve things will benefit everyone, not just those wronged. Despite how I may come across, I really do want the best for everyone involved in the Spanish property industry as long as they are helping where they can.

goodstich......I had some time to spare now so I looked at that thread Rough Justice but it's no more enlightening than this....same abusive posts towards people who dare to put forward even the mildest contrary opinion.  At least we can be thankful that one of the nastier posters has vowed not to post any more.....

I am reasonably well-informed about the illegal homes situation and have put forward a suggestion as to what could be done there. It does seem that the main culprits are the local municipalities and developers who failed to go through the correct procedures as required by the JdA planning regulations. I have been in contact with two MEPs I have had previous dealings with but their response was not encouraging. I hope to see one of them early next month and will bring up the matter again.

But it seems your grievance is different and I would welcome further objective information about this situation. If you can point me to any unbiased articles in the UK or Spanish press or elsewhere I would be happy to read and learn more. If cases are going through court, though, is there anything more that can be done?

In the meantime, my sympathies are with all victims of injustice. (Some of us need to make that clear every time we post, sadly).  I am sorry for the likes of the unfortunate cafe owner I mentioned earlier but I would suggest that 'caveat emptor' and a little common sense might have enabled him to avoid the sad fate that befell him?  Or should we all encourage people to move around the world with insufficient funds and zero knowledge of the undertaking that they are about to embark on?   Their case is very different from yours and not to recognise this belittles your cause.

I only bite back when i read rubbish like 'only a few are involved'. That selfish attitude helps no one, but it's quite often said on here sadly

No, goodstich, that isn't a 'selfish attitude'......it's merely an expression of an opinion that may be right or may be wrong.  People are allowed to give their opinions without being called 'selfish', aren't they?   You don't help yourself with such unfounded and unfair personal attacks.

Now....no-one has produced figures as to how many people are involved in these scams and I doubt that precise figures exist.  If a couple of million transactions have successfully taken place and say ten thousand are fraudulent then comparatively speaking that is a few. But surely that's not the point. One would be too many.  Injustice doesn't have to be on a grand scale to qualify as injustice.

And neither does folly.

I have suggested, many moons ago - and you may well recall Goodstitch - that it may be an idea to have one thread/forum/blog where links and information can be posted relating to all the actions/petitions/marches, etc., so those who wish to can directly contribute/participate/support such activity/group.  I recall suggesting that because, you may recall, many were fed up with other threads (such as this) being hijacked by certain repeat offenders!!

I too am offended that again and again and again some people on here repeatedly suggest that anyone who doesn't stand up and slag off living in Spain and pledge to return to blightly are accused of not supporting those victims of corruption and fraud in Spain!  As Floella says "what else we should do If  signing petitions, supporting the marches of people whose homes are under threat, or simply warning others of the problems one can face is NOT sufficient" - and as was demonstrated on here a few days ago, after David W was so offensively insulted (with no apology), no one on here is necessarily aware what other members are doing in support of any particular cause and no one should feel the need to announce publicly their actions in any event.

So, Goodstitch, as you have been requested here and before, how about starting a thread/blog (or asking Justin to?) which comprises information about actions in support of property scandal victims in Spain, and regular news regarding marches, meetings, etc.  NOT for members to post on - only for an adminstrator to add news/links, etc., to.  This would help those causes and let those who wish to lend their support do so.

And without having to trawl through hundreds of posts on a couple of threads!

praquepix/Pitby

I think it's best to agree we are not going to see eye to eye and leave it at that.