Is living in Spain really that bad now???

Norman said "possibly even one can be happy about some things and unhappy about others. "

I'm wih Norman on that point. But it's when the things that generate great stress and unhappiness start to outweight the happy thoughts through no fault of your own that it's time to review the situation. Manage it as best you can, yes, with as positive an attitude that you can muster not to mention determination to make good of a bad situation, but at the end of the day you can't hide from some painful realities and decisions unfortunately.

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oh yes indeed!. Some days are certainly easier to cope with than others with ongoing crap situations. I lost a close relative last year and sadly several friends have been diagnosed with cancer all in last few months. It's put my Spain nightmare in to perspective, but it's still there.

Is it even remotely possible that some people's bad investments could be put down to inexperience, lack of planning and forethought or even -dare I say it -greed?

Of course there are instances where sensible people have been cheated by crooked developers etc. but it seems that far too many people failed to heed the maxim:'If it seems too good to be true, it is'?

There are corrupt solicitors, incompetent/dishonest builders and con-merchants of every kind in every country. But maybe there were too many naive and gullible people for them to prey on in Spain?

I suppose it's an inevitable fact of human nature that bad experiences will colour one's judgment.

 Dear All,

"Is it even remotely possible that some people's bad investments could be put down to inexperience, lack of planning and forethought or even -dare I say it -greed?"

where do these strange people get these ideas from??????????????????

they talk as though playing about with your one and only pot of life savings was some kind of every day occurrence.

what weird mind could suggest that wanting to ensure such savings was greed?????????????

"inexperience" of course, it is the first time in your life that you have done it - surely that must be obvious to everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

inexperience of Spain's legion of crooked lawyers - of course, of course, ad infinitum.

and of course how can expecting ordinary business honesty be compared with "too good to be true".

"coloured judgment, colured judgment"

suppose. suppose, suppose, ????????

when I wonder will it sink in as a definite fact??????

Help

Norman

praquepix

as the risk of repeating myself., yes of course people were unexperienced, how many had bought in a corrupt country before?.  Certainly most people from Northern Europe take regulation and justice largely for granted. Some were greedy, but that in no way justifies the fact they were cheated, and often by those in positions of legal trust such as lawyers, planning officers, and even judges. How many greedy bankers are there?

Yes a bad experience can colour judgement, but my experience and in many cases it's  tended to sharpen it.

praquepix

as the risk of repeating myself., yes of course people were unexperienced, how many had bought in a corrupt country before?.  Certainly most people from Northern Europe take regulation and justice largely for granted. Some were greedy, but that in no way justifies the fact they were cheated, and often by those in positions of legal trust such as lawyers, planning officers, and even judges. How many greedy bankers are there?

Yes a bad experience can colour judgement, but my experience and in many cases it's  tended to sharpen it.

As a more thoughtful person than the other poster to whom I have replied, you are aware that I was careful not to dismiss all purchasers as greedy, inexperienced etc. etc. and from what I have read of  your case you clearly have suffered appallingly at the hands of a system where corruption all too often goes unchallenged.  The problem lies though in the very fact you also mention - the fact that many people were inexperienced and trusting allowed them to be taken advantage of.  I wonder why so many inexperienced, trusting people felt it safe to buy in Spain?  After all, not for nothing has the phrase 'an old Spanish custom' been for long a part of tEnglish usage.

A few years ago, I bought a property in Canada. The transparency of the transaction was amazing!   The property sale was literally done on a handshake and very swiftly completed. Would that this were the case universally!

Could part of the reason as to why so many people put trust in Spain be the plethora of tv programmes such as 'A Place in the Sun' which made it all seem so easy and desirable?  Why did so many people of fairly modest means sell their UK assets and put their trust in a country which had only comparatively recently emerged from a repressive dictatorship?  Was it the easy, uncomplicated living of the fortnight's package holiday?

As a very risk-averse person I am very wary of entering places I don't feel sure of. Fortunately my partner is not so timid and was therefore able to manage our businesses with more skill and success than I. I was far too timid to even contemplate purchasing a property in Spain. That may of course have been my loss, although a family property has seen a depreciation in value of almost 40% in the past two years.

"Our family owns properties in Spain and are experienced buyers and sellers of properties. "

Well there you go then that makes a lot of difference doesn't it?  First time Northern European buyers in Spain would not have had the benefit of that experience. Even those 'greedy' specualtors do not deserve to be ripped off by crooks.

At least now that so much more information is available  hopefully the horror stories will be a thing of the past. Can only hope those cheated will eventually receive some recompense.

We have learned a lot following a painful buying process in Spain,  have also in the past bought in North America which was a totally seamless procedure and an agent who filled the fridge with champagne and supplies for our first arrival (sadly we were 'greedy 'investors and 9/11 destroyed the rental market for quite a while so we eventually had to sell)  and we certainly now feel better equipped for any future decisions.

Norman Sands says:

I try to give only the facts as I know them, but must confess that I was a ripe old age before I learned that Spanish lawyers are in the main crooks, even the English solicitors working for them are equally dishonest

S o according to Norman over 50%, possibly even 75% of Spanish lawyers and their English sidekicks are crooks?

Could we have evidence -apart from your own experiences -to substantiate this sweeping and possibly libellous statement?

You would have to bring forward an awful lot of proof to make this kind of hyperbole even remotely believable.

Some, yes. But 'in the main'???  

When I bought my first house many years ago I had a very bad experience with an incompetent solicitor. I complained and got redress from the Law Society. I would never use this experience to denigrate the other hundreds of thousands of honest people working in the UK legal profession.

 Well said praguepix!!   A casual perusal of a good quality newspaper in the Uk will give an indication of how many solicitors and lawyers go over to the dark side!!!  The solicitor who sold me this house I still live in ended up in jail for conning old ladies out of theproceeds from their properties (bought by a company illegally set up by him).

We have a good solicitor in Spain, and now thankfully a good solicitor in the UK as well, but to go on as though they are all crooks, or even in the main crooks, is outrageous, and not even amusing.  

Yet again - thanks Norman and others! - this thread drifts to the penchant of those who want to air their grief, unrelated to the thread topic!! (And Norman, I actually enjoy reading your posts - you really should consider writing a book about "whatever" because you obviously have a flair for writing (even if about 'whatever'!! ).

Is living in Spain really that bad now???  Well, how many of those who have contributed to this thread do actually live in Spain??  Norman doesn't, Goodstitch doesn't, Poppyseed doesn't, and I'm sure if I were minded enough I'd find loads more who have commented on here about living in Spain without authority!  Mainly because the thread drifts so often that people respond to posts that are not relative at all!

Well, I for one, am slowly but surely getting very used to living in Spain - a big change for us coming from the middle east - and, to this day, am robbed of breath every time I am witness to the most beautiful sunrise when I take my son to school in the morning!  I think myself lucky that I am here, as opposed to the middle east, and experiencing this wonderful culture.  We're lucky that we can do this right now and I am taking full advantage.

That's what living in Spain is about - experiencing all the good things about it whilst tolerating and dealing with the not so good things in parallel.  Much the same as many places really!!

So, living in any country is all relative really, but we can honestly say that living in Spain is, at this moment in time, very pleasant - despite the weather!!

At the end of the day, It's a bloody country, not a bubble!!  So get a perspective, people!! 

Pitby,

I fell well qualified to comment for the following reasons,

• have owned property continuously in Spain since 1984
• although we live between 3 destinations we spend a lot of time in Spain so actually feel well qualified to comment on living in Spain as well as the other 2 places we live in. Perhaps by your definition we shouldn't comment on any as we can't possibly have any insight into real life in these places as we're not in any one 365 days a year
• owning a property means we deal with all the beaurocracy, utilities and maintenance issues as well as the raft of alterations and improvements we have made (we know eveyry builders merchant and suppliers, etc for miles around) which takes us out of 'holiday' mode into real life in Spain mode, in fact since purchasing our present property (process started in 2001, finally signed in 2004) I have never felt on holiday in Spain
• I don't think or expect Spain to be a utopia, nowhere is and I don't think any other members of EOS think it is either ,so none of us think the bubble exists, but nice if it did

I also consider the people who have tried to buy in Spain but have been thwarted have a valuable contribution as they have experienced a side of Spain that not everyone has.

Threads do drift, just as conversations do. It is good for you that you are enjoying Spain and interesting to hear different perspectives, but please accept that different people have different perspectives and that your comparison between Spain and the Middle East is not valid for everyone, no reason why it should be.

Jan,

Spot on!

Quote Praguepix "Is it even remotely possible that some people's bad investments could be put down to inexperience, lack of planning and forethought or even -dare I say it -greed?"

How often I have said the same thing! We first considered purchasing a foreign property back in 2003 and did so in 2006, and then again in 2009. The first as a long term investment, and the second as the same an also to be our residence... and coincidently both were in Spain, Costa Del Sol.

As you can see, we spent some considerable time conducting research as to what we wanted, and how best to achieve such. Having said that, the likes of Norman would consider me a 'spin doctor' and as stated below 'not to be trusted'. 

Quote Norman "But one thing I learnt a long time ago, was that when making decisions, it is essential to treat enthusiasts with extreme caution."

I, and others, never asked for your trust!

We just gave our opinion on "Living in Spain".... as I, and some of whom you mistrust, actually do so! You, and a few others, who have decided not to complete on a property in Spain, consider yourselves an authority on life in Spain simply because you have suffered the 'off-plan nightmare'. May I just add at this point, that off-plan nightmares have happened in more than one country,and equally off-plan perfection has also done the same!

As the thread is entitled "Is living in Spain really that bad now?"

Well, the answer really is a perspective answer, from those who now currently live in Spain, or from those who have lived in Spain recently and then decided to move elsewhere.

How else can anyone answer this question?

Can I comment on living in the USA, or Russia, or France, or Italy, or Ireland, or South Africa, or Australia, or Switzerland, or Tunisia? No! I can't! However I have had a holiday in those countries!!!! And in some instances in properties owned by family mermbers and friends!

But I have never lived in those countries... I have however lived in Wales, England and Scotland!!!!

To live in a country is to live in that country! Nothing more, nothing less!!!

And I ask, nor expect, trust from anyone!

I merely give my opinion, and my time, for what it is worth!

Poppyseed, I do compare to the middle east mostly, because I lived there for so long - but it doesn't detract from the fact that I lived there, so can make comparisons.  I have also lived in Singapore, France, England, and Scotland - so know a little about living as an expat.

In all honesty, I can't see where in any of your posts on this thread you have actually commented about living in Spain?  Which is exactly my point!

Threads do drift, yes, but that doesn't mean I have to  "accept that different people have different perspectives" about living in Spain when they don't!!  That would be like going to the supermarket and asking the guy behind the meat counter for advice on your tax return!

End of, really!!

Poppyseed

Thank again for seeing things as they are.  As if you have to live in a country to know right from wrong?, what a load of rubbish!  How many countries have various scams, and wrong doings?.  We would have to be blind or stupid not to know that their situation has hurt many good people, we don't have to live there to know that, and that of course goes for the UK as well.

Of course living in a country gives better insight in to day to day life, but many of the legal issues we are talking about would be the same if we lived in Spain, so I feel we have a perfect right to contribute to this thread. I think it's fair to say that those who have been cheated in Spain but don't live their,  probably have a clearer idea of how the system works than many living their who have not yet had to test it!!

Interesting

"Of course living in a country gives better insight in to day to day life''

That is my understanding of this particular thread

 Wether it's full or part-time, i stil think our comments are valid!

Mind you "dear all'' everyone's comments are valid, just some not as much as others!!

oh yes, and that cuts all ways!

If keeping to the thread!!

Agreed

yes, as long as the thread includes those whose experience 'of' Spain in some issues, covers the same ground as those living 'in' Spain, which it clearly does.

Why do I feel the need to write a disclaimer at the end of every post??

Living in a country - any country - isn't all about its legal system and buying a property in it!!

It's about choosing where you want to settle and getting on with your lives - and, yes, knowing that there are good and bad things about the place you live in, as there are in any damn place on earth!!

Please afford us the courtesy of at least pretending to acknowledge we have brains!!