Is living in Spain really that bad now???

Tish:    whilst not forecasting with precision the scale of the global economic crisis, like many others active in the field of politics and economics I was all too aware that boom and bust are endemic to the free market. A cursory glance at the economic history of the post-war period -or even the past two hundred years - should counsel caution and encourage thoughtful financial planning As I've said before, I am frankly amazed that so many people with so little knowledge and experience of 'abroad' ventured to commit themselves to a new life in a country of whose language, even, most of them were ignorant. I am only too pleased that so many have come through the experience unscathed and are enjoying it..

Ads and Goodstich: the European Parliament Report is vague and as far as I am aware there are no apendices of precise statistics.  Neither has any action been iniated, as far as I am aware, although I may learn more when I meet with some UK MEPs next month.I maintain that out of the vast number of property transactions which have taken place over the past decade, a very small percentage -5% maybe? - have been tainted with fraud and corruption. After all, it's not only Brits who have purchased here.

Many of the fraudulent transactions involved non-Spanish lawyers and developers -  many of these crooks were themselves British, preying on the inexperienced and those willing to cut corners in their zeal for a 'bargain'..

There is some very pertinent graffiti on a wall in the campo near my house:  'Urbanismo= corrupcion =crisi'.  When you have development on the scale of that experienced on the various Costas in recent years, it is inevitable that some degree of human nature will accompany it. The UK has its own history of unfortunate property deals and corporate crooks too.

I repeat my original point:  anyone relocating anywhere on a tight budget with no room for dealing with unforeseen setbacks is at best careless and at worst downright foolish. I think we sometimes forget that no -one has a right to a life in the sun.

Oh, and Tish: with reference to your report from the Daily Maul:  so now it's telling us four million people emigrants want to return to the UK.  A week or so ago The Maul was telling us that one in five of the UK population over fifty can't wait to leave the UK............

Like many of The Maul's reports, it's best taken with a large box of Saxa!!!

David W and Goodstich, in case there were any doubts re addressing corruption in Spain, here's a few more quotes from

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=REPORT&reference=A6-2009-0082&language=EN

"Requests the Spanish authorities to ensure that no administrative act that would oblige a citizen to cede legitimately acquired private property finds its legal base in a law which has been adopted after the date of construction of the property in question, since this would infringe the principle of non-retroactivity of administrative acts which is a general principle of Community law (see the judgment of the Court of Justice of 29 January 1985 in Case 234/83 Gesamthochschule Duisburg [1985] ECR 327) and would undermine guarantees affording citizens legal certainty, confidence and legitimate expectations of protection under EU law;

Calls on the Commission, at the same time, to ensure strict respect for the application of Community law and of the objectives laid down in the Directives covered by this resolution, so that compliance therewith can be assured;

Considers it alarming that there appears to be a widespread lack of confidence among the petitioners in the Spanish judicial system as an effective means of obtaining redress and justice;.

Takes the view that persons who have bought property in Spain in good faith, only to find that the transaction has been declared illegal, should have the right to appropriate compensation through the Spanish courts;

………considers therefore that developers who have entered into contracts the unlawfulness of which they should have known about ought not to be entitled to compensation for plans that are abandoned due to non-compliance with national and European law, and should not have any automatic right of to recover payments already made to municipalities when these have been made in the knowledge of the likely illegality of the contract entered into;

Recalls also that Parliament, as the budgetary authority, may also decide to place funding set aside for cohesion policies in the reserve if it considers this necessary in order to persuade a Member State to end serious breaches of the rules and principles which it is obliged to respect either under the Treaty or as a result of the application of EU law, until such time as the problem is resolved;

Recalls that the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive⁽¹³⁾ obliges all Member States to provide appropriate means of obtaining legal redress and remedies for consumers who have been victims of such practices and to ensure that adequate sanctions are in place to counter such practices;

And these are just a few counter measures proposed…..

Stay strong and let's hope that ultimately the Spanish government will be made accountable via sanctions if they fail to recognise the failings of the justice system and the financial impact on thousands of innocent victims.

Tish wrote;

"I find it hard to believe that you or anyone could have possibly forseen the world banking crisis coming, let alone make allowances for it on the scale it has affected the exchange rates."

I saw it coming when the UK  said they wouldn't be going into the euro. When everone else in he EU changed the pound was 1,62 euros & that was what was printed as the exc. rate on all my co. invoices regardless of the rate that the UK might eventually go in at.

You always have to look at what's in it for them ?, what aren't they saying ?  Remember they're only in it for themselves & those that aren't are usually just stupid.

When I wished to increase ( double ) my mortgage some 20 yrs. ago the interest rate was around 7/8 %. " Can you afford to pay if the int. rate goes up", I was asked ?  " Yes , as long as it doesnt go above 20%" I replied.  No one ever believed it would ever get to that figure but for 3 days Norman Lamont had int. rates @15% 'till they had to give up & pull out of the ERM. They weren't worried about the effcts on the public , only proving themselves right.

Regarding 'seeing it coming', Yes it was just when. The days of Shares being offered by co.'s to expand their business's passed long ago, for the past 25+ years it has been 'gambling' & nothing else. Just like going down the betting shop & betting on horse & dog racing, &  even more crooked. 

Am I a pessimist ?, No I am worse, I believe not only is the glass half full but I want it superglued down to prevent it being knocked over. If more people took better care over affairs & didn't  think things will not / or could not possibly happen then they might be better prepared for when they do!  Because they always will. There's always someone working out the angles.

So all you "experts'' all you people who "have experienced'' how bad Spain is

What are the figures 1in 10, a100, a1000, 10.000

As you say i've only bought a place, live in Spain about 18 weks a year. have bought a car pay into the Spainish system as required so what would i know

What i did do was buy something that was built and tangible. I did not buy something that didn't exsist

 Dear All,

I wonder how many of you good people are really that good when temptation comes along??????????

Some say that they were only claiming allowances that were due to them, even if it took years of employing specialists to claim those allowances for them.

Lots claim that they should not be paying tax at all because the government only wastes the money anyway, sometimes on things which they personally are totally against in principle.

Some say that they had the foresight to recognise the need for an immense cushion of funds for their endeavours, not true of course, they are just rich enough to provide a cushion regardless.

Given that specialists can save you money, can they also make you money???????

Well if you own agricultural land and better still worthless scrub land in the sun, the specialist planners will transform the value for you by obtaining the magic planning permission.

To protect the environment from "free-for-all", government employs their version of the specialist planner, so some persuasion and lobbying is needed on your behalf to arrange a "deal".

Which perhaps makes some sense.

Unfortunately individuals, whoever you are, cannot be trusted not to be corrupted by "incentives".

The solution is of course to put the final decision back in the hands of the local trusted stalwarts, the incorruptible "politicians".

What could possibly go wrong in deciding whose particular £0 should become £1m???????????

Having spent a week in court in good old UK, one cannot help but wonder, are people really that good????????

Things may well be worse in carefree Spain but here we have nothing to be complacent about.

Just how bad would people be with the "right" incentive??????

What should someone do whose children or grandchildren are starving whilst others are overeating???????

Not to worry the state will provide, not in Spain apparently.

Regards

Norman

ads

I don't think there are any doubts for those who wish to see.

Goodstitch wrote;

"To be fair you have to experience it first hand to know just how bad it is in Spain, but there is enough info' about it now for those who choose to 'see' it."

I thought everyone knew, before they came, about corruption in Spain. Then again I thought that the majority of people in the UK knew the tax % on fuel ,cigarettes, etc; Unfortunately the vast majority go round with their head in the sand appearing to expect that everything they see & are told is legitimate. It very rarely is.

When I first started looking here I looked at 'off plan'  & was told on more than one occassion " just the same as ' off plan' in the UK. Ok, no problems, here's my 500 pound. " what's that ? "   "That's how it's done in the UK. I give you a 500 pound deposit for the property I want ,you build it , plus all the extras I require & positioning of all services, when it's finished , legal, electric,water , etc; all connected , we complete the sale." Anyone who wants large chunks of money up-front, means you're paying to build it and you are going to have a horrendous problem trying to get any money back. There isn't any. As many have found out the bank guarantee's are worthless as the banks never made any provision , or ever expected , to have to pay out any money!

It is only ever worth buying an established property.

Why is it all these clever infomed people, those dishing out the rights and wrongs, do this don't do that, making little of others opinions and imput.............................are the one's in the s**t

Crazy world we live in Arthur Brown

I prefer to view it differently. Just the opposite actually.

It's those in trouble who are genuinely seeking others opinions and input in order to gain a realistic picture, but that includes an insight into the corrupt practices in Spain, so as to put their own circumstance and future decision making into perspective, but alongside this they are trying to pass on their own experiences and maybe knowledge acquired along the way in their attempt to spare others a repeat of circumstance. But striving as they do so to improve a justice administration system that is well overdue reform, ironically to the benefit of all in the longer term.

Each to their own.

i always try not to reply to an individual, (Normansands the exeption, cause he's the "daddy'')

but Goodstich 44 your last post sums you up if i don't agree with your opinion revert to some pre installed symbol that takes no thought, bit like kicking the cat! It means nothing and makes you look like a .....................r

to Ads i don't know if you've lost money in Spain or not and some of your posts are quite intelligent, not bitter and twisted, but try not to be the new local MEP You have to accept that your opinion is not always the "Holy Grail''

Weather rain and wind in leafy Reading

I have replied on the 'rough justice thread', so this thread can get back on track.

All this thread has shown is that some people's experiences have set their minds into rigid positions from which no logic can shift them.  Many people associate places with bad experiences - I was robbed in Venice, overcharged by a taxi-driver in Warsaw,sold defective goods by a New York shyster, ripped off in Spain,many more incidents I could mention - but those unfortunate events have not led me to dismiss the whole of Italy, Poland, the U.S. or Spain as thieving, corrupt nations.  My partner and I have also lost money in business through no fault of our own.  But we've moved on and got over it.  We've got a life.

Anyone who thinks Spain is the world's leading corrupt nation should leave this site and log on to the web site of Transparency International. Frankly, if your only experience of institutionalised corruption has been in Spain, you don't know the half of it. Try doing business in the former Soviet bloc countries. That's a fair comparison as their history of political repression parallels that of Spain. No-one is denying there is corruption in Spain but it is not on a massive scale and the Government is tackling it. The fact that many of the elected Mayors and Councillors and many local government officials along the Costas and elsewhere have been arrested and charged with various frauid-related offences testifies to that.

I agree with Gus Lopez yet again. Currencies fluctuate. When I was in New York City some fifteen years ago I got almost 2$ for my £1. Look at the rate now.  Economies have boom and bust cycles and interest rates vary too.

Far too many people upped sticks, burnt their boats and came to Spain with inadequate knowledge and preparation and not enough funds. Not a majority - most of us here are very happy, thankyou -but a sizeable minority were lured by package holidays and tv programmes to a 'dream home in the sun' -often a poorly build piso in an ugly, poorly built urbanizacion - they couldn't afford.  It is this rash of unsightly overdevelopment and its effect on infrastructuire and environment that the EP is rightly concerned about.

People who do not live in Spain really have no idea how bad -or good -things are here. To know a country you have to live in it.  I wouldn't presume to say how 'good' or 'bad' things are in the UK -I haven't lived there for over five years, just visited on business trips.  Your bad or good experiences are just that....your experiences. No more, no less.

Hi Praguepix & David W

Excellent posts my sentiments entirely, but be warned next you will be accused of being in denial!

Praguepix, you wrote:

People who do not live in Spain really have no idea how bad -or good -things are here. To know a country you have to live in it.

Well, the argument cuts both ways. 

People who have not experienced just how bad the process of going through the corrupt judicial system that is carried out in the Spanish Courts is, then they cannot possibly know how stressful & traumatic the whole thing is,especially when you have won your case, but are still denied  your money back.  You have to experience it to possibly understand where the thousands of people like Goodstich are coming from..and yes, he has, in his case, every right to go on & on & on & on ad infinitum, until the day comes (If it ever does) when he gets what is rightfully his...his hard earned money back. If it irritates the hell out of you and DavidW and anyone else on this forum.. then so be it. Get over it!

Another member of the "Mr know it all" ", I'm alright Jack" club. There are several on this thread.

Praguepix

"I'd go so far as to say that some were born losers. Spain is better off without them."

I certainly hope you do not refer to the people cheated or finding the exchange rate difficult to cope with in this way to the MEP's you meet. Not all have the benefit of your economic and political background which quite frankly is nothing to brag about these days. From this sort of  comment it's probably why we're in the state we're in.

I said previously that I had made my last comment, and I did intend that to be the case but I have weakened  and admit it, but will not do so again as I am signing off EOS and leaving it to the jumped up know it all's. At least those cheated have made reasonable comments and  not resorted to personal or offensive remarks which speaks volumes.

Oh by the way, Carrefour have a really good 2 for 1 pay as you go mobile phone deal on for 19 euros, bargain.

I must thank all who don't like personal insults for hurling some in my direction

I think we all feel for those who have lost money in Spain. For what ever reason

Am glad to see the rough justice thread as the place for these comments.

But even now certain posters talk down to others because they don't share there point of veiw

There is no need to repy indiviually to anyone's posts unless a question is asked

i'm happy to respect anyones's veiws in a genral forum. Be nice if we were all happy to do that!!

Oh by the way, Carrefour have a really good 2 for 1 pay as you go mobile phone deal on for 19 euros, bargain.

I wish I had a Carrefours within 80kms.

A silly, peevish reply, Poppyseed. What a loss your absence from EOS will be....You are, unfortunately, seemingly unable to read close text. If you look  back over my posts you will not find one single personal insult  - I leave that to others who have made a career of being insulting on this and other threads -and I have made it clear that I have great sympathy for those who have been badly treated in Spain, or anywhere for that matter. On the contrary, I have put forward suggestions that might be of some practical help to those in danger of losing their homes.

It seems to me that there are people on this forum who are unable to distinguish the general from the specific.  Calling people who express opinions contrary to yours 'know-it-alls' is a poor and childish substitute for rational argument. In your world-view, it seems that only the 'thousands' who have been cheated in Spain have the 'correct' view of things and tthe right to voice an opinion. You have no evidence whatsoever that 'thousands' have been 'cheated' -after all, there are only two posters in that sad situation on this thread, as far as I am aware -yet you seem to hold the view that they alone know what Spain is all about.

Your comments about politicians seem rather childish - your use of the word 'brag' is quite revealing. I merely stated what I was going to do in the near future, i.e. meet with politicians. Believe me, if I wanted to 'brag', I have more interesting things than talking with an MEP to offer for your delectation - or otherwise.. 

Sensible people plan their lives as best they can and make allowances for the 'unexpected'. In spite of this, bad things can happen through no fault of their own. I am truly sorry for such people. (Have I made that clear enough for you all?)  But there are people who take no heed for the future, are feckless and reckless with their and their families lives and some of them have gravitated to Spain. I repeat: some are born losers and Spain is better off without them.

That is my opinion based on experience and neither you or anyone else who wishes to censor expression and who can only meet factual argument with childish insult will change it.