Is living in Spain really that bad now???

Doesn't include basura which is 12e very 2 months and the, bins wwhich are placed every 3 hundred yards, are emptied couple of times a week in winter.More in the summer..

Dear All,

some have told us how valuable their properties are and how the Spanish market is "picking up". They have even told us how clever they have been with their study and planning.

How stupid we have been to be conned out of our life's savings.

Are they in for a shock, I wonder...................????????

"Why Greece is Europe's US subprime crisis

In yesterday's FT, Wolfgang Munchau described Greece as "Europe's equivalent of the US subprime crisis." It's an excellent analogy.

One of the key factors in the US subprime crisis was the behaviour of the credit ratings agencies. They rubber-stamped subprime securities with the AAA badge. That gave investors all the excuse they needed to take leave of their senses and pile into toxic debt as though they were lending to the US government itself.

In the eurozone, the single currency played the role of the ratings agencies. As soon as a country joined the euro, it became Germany. It didn't matter how dodgy its credit history was. It didn't matter that its economy and culture were entirely different to Germany's. It didn't matter that Germany didn't explicitly back the country's debt. The euro rubber stamp meant that investors were happy to lend to Greece and Portugal and Ireland at only the slimmest of margins above what they'd charge Germany.

Trouble is, now they're finally realising that what they were buying was nothing like German debt at all. Suddenly the fragile cover of the eurozone has been blown. Arguably, the penny finally dropped on Thursday, when Eurostat, the European statistics agency, said it had revised Greece's deficit for 2009 up to 13.6%, and it could go higher. Reports Aline van Duyn in the FT this morning: "Bond traders are already calling it 'Black Thursday'… any trust that was left was shattered."

Bond yields spiked. So Greece called on Europe and the International Monetary Fund for the €45bn they'd been promised. But here's the problem. The EU/IMF can't just click its fingers and dish this money out.

Remember all the drama over the US bail-out package when Hank Paulson was trying to raise $700bn to rescue AIG and by extension, the US investment banking sector? They had to stuff the bill full of bribes for special interests (such as a tax break for a factory making toy arrows in some back-of-beyond US state) before it was passed.

That was for a single country. Now imagine trying to get that bail-out package past 16 of them. They don't all need to give parliamentary approval. But Germany does. And as far as a good chunk of the German population is concerned, Greece can go hang.

With a regional election coming up on 9 May, Angela Merkel needs to talk tough to please her own voters. At the same time, she's reassuring Greece that it can have the money, as long as it agrees a package of tougher spending cuts with the IMF.

The markets don't seem content to wait. As Alan Beattie puts it in the FT, "the house is burning down and the eurozone is sitting around debating the constitutionality of calling the fire brigade or filling a bucket of water."

Greece's two-year borrowing costs are now higher than those of Venezuela or Argentina. In fact, they're the highest of any sovereign in the world. That's right. Hugo Chavez, a man who'd appropriate your assets in the name of international socialism as soon as look at you, can borrow at lower rates than those demanded of a developed-world, democratic eurozone country.

"Indeed, to all intents and purposes, the market for Greek government bonds stopped working last Thursday. It has become almost impossible to trade, with volumes very low." Remind you of anything? That's right – "the breakdown in trading for asset-backed securities" that happened during the subprime crisis.

Investors have realised there's only one Germany in the eurozone

It's easy to blame Germany. But this isn't just about the immediate bail-out money. It's also about whether Greece can come up with a decent plan for improving its finances in the long run. Unfortunately, as Wolfgang Munchau said in the FT yesterday, "what I have heard so far from Greek economists is deeply discouraging."

And now that investors have realised that there's only one Germany in the eurozone, and it might not be willing to bail out the rest, they're not just worried about Greece. They're fretting about Portugal, and Ireland, and Spain.

Portugal's ten-year yield 'spread' (the gap between what it has to pay and what Germany has to pay) has hit a fresh euro lifetime record. Spain and Ireland's borrowing costs also rose.

The danger here is that Greece probably isn't Lehman Brothers. Greece isn't even Bear Stearns. Greece is Northern Rock. It's simply the first domino to topple, and not even an especially important one. Right now I can't see where the cavalry comes from for Greece. And more importantly, even if it does arrive, the cavalry can't save everyone in the eurozone."

Perhaps I will get my holiday home after all, paid for out of only a few months pension in miserable pounds when the euro falls.

Planning is everthing of course but who could plan for this?????????????

Will it be Viva Espana all over again?????

Regards

Norman

Normansands - I can't argue with that.

You Do have to hope that the pound doesn't fall with it!  Perhaps both currencies can keep each other company as they plunge into the chasm!

Hi Norman,

The average bill for IBI (Council Tax) and Basura (Rubbish Removal) in the Marbella area for a newish 2 Bedroom apartment is around €630 a year.

This amount would compare with the type of basic services you would expect to receive in the UK!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 2004 £200,000 would buy you a Promised "Top Quality" €300,000 2bed/2bath apartment off plan .

Today, £200,000 would buy you a €212, 000 apartment.

The difference is - You can now purchase a really good quality 2 bedroom Apartment from €170,000  Ready to move into today !!!

Hi Norman,

some have told us how valuable their properties are and how the Spanish market is "picking up". They have even told us how clever they have been with their study and planning.

Not sure who you are referring to here as I have only been dipping in and out of this thread.  The Spanish property market may be picking up in terms of more people starting look at property again (mainly Spaniards), but prices are still plummeting.  The banks are selling 2 bed repos for 100K in the Manilva/Casares area, which is still too high because rents are also plummeting.  For a 2 bed property beach side in Sabinillas, you can get one for 400 euros per month.  Further up the hill you can get one for 350-375 euros per month.

As for Europe's equivalent subprime, surely that is Spain?  Much bigger than Greece and the banks were giving away 100% + mortgages like sweets.

Hi Sanchez,

The banks are still giving 100% mortgages like sweets - BUT ONLY FOR THEIR REPOSESSED PROPERTIES.

See www.oportunidadescam.es/Viviendas/Todas_las_provincias/Todas_las_poblaciones/Oportunidad_En_subasta_En_alquiler_/Oportunidad_En_subasta_En_alquiler_Obra_nueva_Segunda_mano_/oportunidades  as an example. 

Giving a mortgage gets the properties off their reposession lists for a while (until the mortgagees default).  It's all accounting smoke and mirrors.

As for property prices, they are still in the stratosphere, which is why no-one is buying.

 Toally agree about the Cam Rubbish and how they have the front to offer full finance again so soon after the crash.

Totally disagree that nobody is buying though.....we have had the busiest month for 4 years and the interest is still building...lots of Spanish are buying,scandanavians are buying,Irish are buying,Brits are Buying,dutch are buying...........and on and on.

I sold 3 apartments to one guy who has lived here for years and knows the state of the market without having to believe me......3 nice apartments for 150,000 Euros......how times have changed!!!!!!!

 Glad things are going well Georgia nice to hear things are picking up.

Pat

We moved into our new apartment in Jumilla just over a year ago, and we enjoyed an inauguration party with all the neighbours on 8th May.  We have just seen a notice in the lift saying that the annual fiesta will be on Friday 14th May and asking for a contribution of 5€ (the same price as last year).  That´s one of the things we enjoy about living here - people love to party!

Sue

Well done Georgia.  I presume you mean that you sold 3 apartments for 50,000€ each?

max- we have not been taken over by the town hall yet, even after after 8 years, but i assume that's where the ibi money goes. since the bill is sent from the town hall. no one can explain why we pay more, surely it's not because it's a new urbanisation? it's a modest 3 bedroomed / 3 bathroom villa  with pool on 600 sq mtr plot. i've already described the facilities or lack of them. those in surrounding villages also have roads, lighting, better bus service etc, so why the vast difference. it seems so unfair. the fact that the ibi is cheaper than uk is not the point.

Camposol - you can check this on the internet using either www1.sedecatastro.gob.es/OVCFrames.aspx or www.goolzoom.com/ whereby you can see an aerial view of your house, and then get the catastro reference number.  You can then enquire in the town hall what your IBI should be.  If someone (MASA?) is collecting it on your behalf, then you can draw your own conclusions.

You say that the town hall hasn't registered the properties yet, but this is a section of Camposol "Sector C" which has clearly marked catastro parcels with reference numbers.  Note: Camposol isn't an "urbanization" in the legal sense, more a conurbation.  I'm trying to be polite here!  You should also ask in the town hall if IBIs are being paid, which may explain the lack of services, if not.

Quote Tish:

"http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/files/2010/04/scary.jpg

Deny these facts TechnoApe, and you are living in Cloud Cuckoo land!"

No!

I live in Spain!

Nice, warm, sunny Spain! Where the warmth of the friendship we have with all our Spanish friends is greater than the that from the Sun.

I do not deny and have never denied the facts! I do not have my head in the sand! I do not believe everything I read in the newspapers and on the Internet, or watch on TV (unlike some).

I do run my own business here in Spain. I do have a rather healthy bank balance since I moved to Spain! I do own two properties here in Spain!

What I would love to know, is why you think your opinion counts more than mine?

For us, living in Spain is great, and all our family and friends back in the UK can't believe how healthy we look, how relaxed we are, and how much less stress we now have in our lives. They ALL seem to think we have done the right thing.... apart from the fact that they miss us!

And yet you, who I do not know (thankfully) seem to think I have done the wrong thing in moving to Spain, as because you live in the UK and seem to think you know more about living in Spain than those who currently do!

We've been back to the UK twice since we left, and on both occasions we had a nice time with friends and family, and on the second visit we also had a great time in London... but on both occasions we couldn't wait to get back home... to Spain!

Oh! And yes! It is still cheaper for us to live here in Spain than where we used to live in North Devon. And yes! The youth yob culture has got worse, and ALL our friends and family tell us the same!

Methinks it is you who are living in cloud cuckoo land!!!!!!

Tish, as you are fond of Newspaper articles, read this and deny these facts!!!!!

Scourge of yob crime revealed

The article is dated just three months after we left North Devon for La Duquesa.

So! Am I living in cloud cuckoo land?????

Techno,

sounds good, keep it up but don't neglect the uk property.

we had a bit of spring, the rape fields glowed but then the wind changed to the North and the pullovers had to go back on, but you haven't been able to midnight soak yet, have you?

Regards

Norman