Is living in Spain really that bad now???

Goodstitch, I have made what I believe to be a valid suggestion!  What is there to "see eye to eye" about?  I thought you WANTED people to support victims of corruption and fraud in Spain!!!!!  You have been asked, quite clearly, to direct us to where and how we can support such cases - but you respond with that???! 

The mind truly boggles!

Edited to say:  And yes, I have signed all the petitions I have been directed to on this forum!  But, sadly, don't have the time to google every such case and find various causes to support in my busy day, as I do have a life!

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.............................................

Oh dear!, I pop out  for a few hours for a spot of retail therapy and war has broken out here!

Praguepix you wrote:  If a couple of million transactions have successfully taken place and say ten thousand are fraudulent then comparatively speaking that is a few

The figure is way above ten thousand, but please don't ask me to give accurate figures.  Sure there have probably been far more succesful transactions than failed ones but that is what one would expect. It doesn't make the situation any less serious.

As a matter of interest,  how did your post name come about? Did you live in Prague?

praguepix

I am not interested in who you are, where you have lived or live or what you do.  I am interested though in the comments you choose to place on this thread of the forum. 

I would like to thank you for your common sense and your measured and balanced comments.  You have voiced, very clearly, what I have been thinking for such a long time.  Your direct comments are accurate.  It is heartening to read them.

I made a decision not engage any further with the issues raised here, mostly because people only interpret what they think they read and because of the vicious and unnecessary personal attacks on anyone who crossed their paths.  I don't need to say anymore as you have encapsulated it perfectly well.  They know nothing about any of us, and there is no reason why they should.  An opinion is just that and we should have nothing to prove to anyone let alone those who choose to attack others continuously.

I still look to this forum for the help, information and advice that is offered freely by so many people.  However, these people have fundamentally changed the wonderful atmosphere that we used to enjoy here, through sharing our experiences to help others - be it buying a house or tyres for the car.  

Thank you.

Goodstitch, I have made what I believe to be a valid suggestion!  What is there to "see eye to eye" about?  I thought you WANTED people to support victims of corruption and fraud in Spain!!!!!  You have been asked, quite clearly, to direct us to where and how we can support such cases - but you respond with that???! 

The mind truly boggles!

Guslopez, I think we got that message!!

********  Agree.  It's often the case, with open forums, that posts can be misinterpreted, especially if not clearly defined, but that will never excuse or warrant abuse, at any level.  Most of us here just try to contribute information and opinions that may be of use for those seeking it.

Jane...I think that's your name....thankyou for your kind words. All I'm interested in here is trying to find out what it was that went so wrong for so many people whilst reserving the right to distinguish between 'victims' and what went wrong for them.

Goodstich....I am very sorry that you persist in believing that we 'disagree'. We do not. I have asked you for information but none has been forthcoming.

Tish: yes, I .lived in Prague for three years, having spent a lot of time there and in other such former Communist bloc states over the past decades. There's no doubt that my experiences there have influenced my views on what happens here in Spain. If you lived nearer we could down several bottles of good Cava whilst discussing my experiences.   Corruption at all levels is a part of daily life and the justice system is as slow, biased and inefficient as here, probably more so.

Your posts are informative so perhaps you could help me understand the problem. Are most of the people who were 'ripped off' here those who were involved in off-plan schemes? Did the developers go bust, taking clients' money with them?   It seems from what you posted about your circumstances that you were cheated by a duplicitous lawyer. Was/is that a common occurrence?  Is there really anything practical that can be done to support people who've been scammed  or is there a sub judice rule here? I personally doubt that petitions etc will have much if any effect unless they contain concrete and specific proposals for remedy.  My experience with MEPs as I have said is that they will make speeches but are either unwilling or unable to achieve anything more.  I must say I find UKIP's involvement ironic as if they had their way we'd have no residence or propertyrights here or anywhere else in the EU for that matter!

I do disagree with you though about the reasons for the slump in construction. To me it's a simple case of over-supply and diminishing demand. The decision of past Spanish Governments to turn Spain into the Florida of Europe was imo fundamentally misguided in view of the European history of boom followed by bust.

If you have the time, I'd really like to hear from you about the questions I posed above.

Anyway, getting back on topic.  Over the last couple of months I have noticed a few green shoots in the Manilva area.  In Manilva pueblo there has been a bit more building work going on.  Some buildings that have previously been left half built have had work started again.  There's a couple of new grocer shops opened as well.  Down the hill in Sabinillas, I've also noticed a couple of new shops opening in previous derelict buildings.  I've also noticed a lot more lorries/trucks on the road.  It's hardly back to the boom times though!

However, I still think that when the Greece mess has been sorted out, attention will be turning to Spain, so these recent green shoots may just be a temporary phenomenon.

Praguepix,

You wrote: 

Tish: yes, I .lived in Prague for three years, having spent a lot of time there and in other such former Communist bloc states over the past decades. There's no doubt that my experiences there have influenced my views on what happens here in Spain. If you lived nearer we could down several bottles of good Cava whilst discussing my experiences.   Corruption at all levels is a part of daily life and the justice system is as slow, biased and inefficient as here, probably more so.

Your posts are informative so perhaps you could help me understand the problem. Are most of the people who were 'ripped off' here those who were involved in off-plan schemes? Did the developers go bust, taking clients' money with them?   It seems from what you posted about your circumstances that you were cheated by a duplicitous lawyer. Was/is that a common occurrence?  Is there really anything practical that can be done to support people who've been scammed  or is there a sub judice rule here? I personally doubt that petitions etc will have much if any effect unless they contain concrete and specific proposals for remedy.  My experience with MEPs as I have said is that they will make speeches but are either unwilling or unable to achieve anything more.  I must say I find UKIP's involvement ironic as if they had their way we'd have no residence or propertyrights here or anywhere else in the EU for that matter!

I do disagree with you though about the reasons for the slump in construction. To me it's a simple case of over-supply and diminishing demand. The decision of past Spanish Governments to turn Spain into the Florida of Europe was imo fundamentally misguided in view of the European history of boom followed by bust.

If you have the time, I'd really like to hear from you about the questions I posed above.

I will try and answer ,briefly, over the week-end as I am out today. i say briefly, because (a) it takes me ages to type ( my family despair of my lack of speed and not using both hands!) and (b) because it would take tooooooo long. It would be far more enjoyable over a bottle or two of Cava!

Now, off Spanish topic.(apologies)

My husband was in Prague for 17 months working on a project (1995-97), and he was also responsible for Hungary & Budapest. His "home" in Prague was The Renaissance. (sadly closed now) He did a weekly commute and I often went out with him. We were treated like royalty at the Hotel! Prague then was beautiful, not  so  many tourists as now. On our regular visits to Campa Park  we were often the only ones walking back across the Bridge.  We used to go back every year a few days before Christmas and enjoy the Markets. I think it's rather spoiled now with all the Hen/Stag parties there.   Nevertheless, it is, architecturally, a stunning city.

Edited to say, until relatively recently, CR was as you said, very much a Communist run country, very much in evidence when we were there. Spain in 2003 was part of the EU, not a Communist, third world country!

 Dear Goodstitch and the few others,

Oh dear, oh dear, did we get it wrong!!!!!

Apart from our natural moronic ignorance, with whatever brain cells that left us with before the flight, we left those few on the plane and handed our money to respected established EU lawyers.

WITHOUT FIRST SPENDING 3 YEARS IN THE EASTERN EUROPEAN THIRD WORLD JUNGLE TO LEARN THE ESSENTIAL BUSINESS SKILLS REQUIRED TO BUY A HOLIDAY PLACE IN SPAIN.

I must have missed this requirement at the property exhibition and you didn't tell me.

people as stupid as us should not be allowed to keep our life's savings when there are so many deserving crooks about and as for sympathy - forget it.

that of course begs the question as to how so many others managed to succeed without this necessary training????????

still perhaps they only managed little places in the sun.

Oh well, perhaps in the next life.

Regards

Norman

At least you have retained a sense of humour ,Norman It is humour isn't it?  M

MUST go out now!!

I'm replying to Norman's post on this thread rather than the 'rough justice thread' as that was specifically set up for a purpose by Goodstitch (and let it be known that I do not have a problem with Goodstitch or anybody else on this forum).

Norman, well I think you'll find that those posts of mine which have "had a sting or two with an absence of politeness" have been directly aimed at you, mostly, and in response to you making reference to me.  But that said, I actually enjoy reading some of your posts!  Although it's obviously not reciprocated!! 

And if being " a bit silly in her enthusiasm" is living my life to the best of my ability with the resources available to me, with my family, in whichever country we choose to settle at this time, then so be it - call me what you will!

What I do have a problem with is being accused at every corner of being 'in denial' and 'turning a blind eye' to what has happened to thousands (and yes, I do realise it is thousands) of people who were/are victims of corruption in Spain.

Yes, we are one of the 'lucky' ones who bought off plan in 2003 and are happy with our purchase.

But that does not make us totally oblivious to what has happened and is happening in Spain.

And, in all sincerity, I don't see what the problem is with having a section (whether it's a blog or other link) dedicated to information about those victims of the Spanish property scandal, in all its forms, and how and where people can support those wronged!  As I've said, I've signed, I believe, every petition that has come to my attention on this forum, but I am sure there are other avenues of support that I, and others, may not be aware of.

Gosh, I'm about to click on the 'reply' button .......   here we go!  Don't all dive in at once ......

Dear Pitby,

thank you for that, it is indeed reciprocated, having joined I am a huge fan of the forum, but I do have problems.

I just cannot relate to the "don't tell brigade" who wish to hide the truth in case it affects rents and sales.

As much as I want my life savings back I would not wish to off-load on to another gullible idiot with or without tattoos.

It seems to me that it is that which divides us.

You may recall we differed on subsidence and landslip, which was ironic since the following year it got worse (as reported, not observed).

You may recall also that you were supported by the two "pretty boys" avatars which I must confess I find no more attractive than your own.

Nevertheless I look forward to one day meeting the "angel".

Regards

Norman

Dear Norman

I have assumed that you refer to me as the "don't tell brigade" who wish to hide the truth in case it affects rents and sales, as you have accused me of the same thing previously.  I shall repeat my answer to you in the hope that you will be able to understand it this time.  My private life is just that.  It is none of your business, or anyone else, unless I choose it to be.  My privacy has nothing whatsoever to do with rents and sales.  It never has been and never will be.

I also assume that you will reply to this and resort to the very clever (not), childish and pointed sarcasm with which you write to Pitby.  Again, I will repeat what I have said before.  Please go away. 

 Dear Jane,

I suppose the user name gives it away ********.

I am afraid I cannot recall that of which you complain or why you should assume guilt??????????

Nevertheless if you are guilty what has that to do with privacy???????

What sort of conscience would someone have to hide fault in something they are promoting??????????

Oh, I know, a salesman's conscience.

The saying is I think, if the lips are moving he is lying.

Still, why post at all if you wish to be private??????

The important point is that you, in all your regality, are not entitled to disappear people at will.

so I suggest you get back on your broomstick and whizz away to privacy.

Bye for now.

Norman

Dear Norman

I fear you need more professional help than I had thought.   My user name was a mistake that was made when I joined this forum many years ago.  That is why I sign my name at the bottom of every post I make.   This has never been a problem to anyone except you.   I  trust that is clear enough for you to understand, though I doubt it will stop your personal psychosis.

You merely show your ignorance by choosing to attack those who have nothing to defend.  You may enjoy slinging insults at people, maybe you are just bored.  I don't know.  Neither do I care.  As the saying goes, act your age, not your shoe size.

Goodstitch hasn't updated us on the balmy weather lately.  Just to let you know, we have a snow warning out for the Midlands for Tuesday.

Quote Jane: "I have assumed that you refer to me as the "don't tell brigade" who wish to hide the truth in case it affects rents and sales, as you have accused me of the same thing previously. "

I know Norman is referring to me also when he posts in that manner!

And indeed has gone further to suggest that I am a 'Spin Doctor' and also 'not to be trusted' as 'those who are exuberant about a subject cannot be'!

All I can say is, I know thousands of people have been ripped off in Spain, but thousands of people have been ripped off in other countries around the world also, including the UK! So why do people such as Norman just attack anyone that has anything positive to say about Spain?

Because he has a bone to pick with Spain over his 'failed' purchase!

I do actually feel for Norman, Goodstich and all those who have been either ill informed, duped, ripped off, etc... but I do not see why they have to harp on about 'not buying' in Spain for those very reasons!?!?!

Why not just try and help others to not make the same mistakes!!!!

If someone has made the decision to buy property in Spain, or maybe just thinking about it, then should we not help those people to make their own decision... give impartial views and actual facts... as opposed to ramming negatives down their throat left, right and centre!

After all, that is what Eye on Spain is all about.

The best advice Norman, Goodstich and the likes can give is to just tell everyone how to buy off-plan, as they now know the pitfalls and can help others avoid such.

We all feel for you, but stop crying over spilt milk, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start helping people. It feels good!

And just for the record, one final time... and to get this thread back on topic...

We did everything right... We hurt no one in doing so... We can see the negatives Spain has to offer over life in the UK, but we can also see the positives!

And for us, the positives far out way any and all negatives!

Which is what I have always maintained... it was right for us to buy property and move to Spain, but maybe not for everyone.

Is living in Spain really that bad now.... for us... you bet your ass it's not!!!!!

And that is the bottom line!!!!

Salud!

This message was last edited by TechNoApe on 28/03/2010.

In response to Technoape's last posting:

"Why not just try and help others to not make the same mistakes!!!! "

If only it were that simple Technoape. I really wish that it were (and by the way that's exactly what we are trying to do).....

What you fail to realise is that even today with the benefit of hindsight, the avoidance of mistakes relating to off-plan purchase does not unfortunately rely solely upon knowledge but actual circumstance that becomes the luck of the draw.

Luck that you don't choose a developer that goes into administration, luck that you don't hit massive time delays on completion dates, luck that the specification lives up to the marketing detail, luck that the promised facilities aren't significantly curtailed, luck that the whole complex gets completed and occupied and you're not left with a mass of empty apartment blocks with a developer who refuses to pay his share of maintenance contribution, luck that you gain mains services (not developer's supply) prior to completion date, luck that you have a developer that is honourable in their obligation to address faults, .......... and so it goes on and on.

Bottom line, so long as there are insecurities relating to all of these aspects, especially given the economic downturn, and so long as there is no swift legal redress to counter these issues, then you have to conclude with offplan purchase that the message remains (very reluctantly I might add) buyer beware. Why do you think that we go on about the need for reform. Believe it or not, we hate having to repeat this message so long as these vulnerabilities continue to haunt purchasers and only wish that we could send out a more positive alternative message relating to off-plan purchase, but as things stand right now, it unfortunately continues to be the luck of the draw.

Having said all of that, please believe us when we say that we are happy to hear of instances where things have gone well. If only it was always like that. To me one solution would be some form of recognised legal accrediation to support and encourage good developers, and to make those who tarnish the industry fully accountable.........but I can't foresee that happening unless the powers that be recognise the need to provide a swift and fair system of financial recompense and proactively curtail those developers who do Spain's reputation great harm.

Enough!!

Maybe one day we can all happily say that we've achieved something positive together. I still live in hope, but until the rug is made static and not able to be pulled from under our feet then I can't say hand on heart that buying offplan is anything but risky and should not be contemplated unless you are one of the lucky few who can afford to lose your deposit. Sorry........

As for other types of purchase then the luck shifts to not choosing a destination where the powers that be decide to pull the rug by politicising their aims by taking your land or property, with little regard to recompensing those affected (even where they followed the local or regional letter of the law). Unbelievable in this day and age to be honest.

Yes move on if you can afford to do so that is. Unfortunately however there are many who aren't in that priviledged position more's the pity. Surely you realise that if a swift form of financial recompense and developer accountability was immediately made available then everyone would be able to follow your advice without thinking of it as a lottery?

I still say good luck however to all who are happy with their lot in Spain or who have made good of a bad situation, and I look forward to hearing more positives, but I also say please allow us to strive for reform without inferring that we blame those of you who are happy. NOT SO AT ALL!!

In fact it's good to hear that living in Spain is good for those who have now found a place that has not been subjected to all or any of the above, and I wish those of you well.  But please understand that using phrases like “but stop crying over spilt milk “ and suggesting that we are not trying to help people, or falsely suggest that we blame others who have found contentment in Spain, only causes resentment and sadly leads to division.