Is living in Spain really that bad now???

OK, to address the thread title:

My experiences of living in Spain are overwhelmingly positive. Compared to some countries of which I have experience, Spain provides a welcoming, comfortable environment with friendly people who have shown amazing tolerance of the way their country has been reshaped by the huge influx of immigrants of all nationalities and varying income levels, from the almost destitute Eastern Europeans to the fabulously wealthy Russians and Arabs.  It has accommodated large numbers of incomers who have shown a complete lack of willingness to adapt to what is left of traditional Spanish culture and who to their shame know only the words'cerveza' and 'vino' in the language of the country they have come to live in. Some -fortunately a small but loud minority -of them have brought the manners and behaviour of the underclass with them.

Yes, there is corruption and malpractice in Spain. What a surprise!  Anyone who thinks Spain is unique in that sense is ignorant of what goes on in the rest of the world. Today in the UK four Parliamentarians go on trial for embezzling public money. As for Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Saudi Arabia....take a look at the website of Transparency International.

The cost of living: well, that depends on your lifestyle and expectations, doesn't it?  Anyone who ups sticks to another country in search of 'cheapness' should take a crash course in economics. I find it incredible, frankly, that anyone with little experience of life in another country other than holidays should burn all their bridges at home to relocate to a country with whom they have scant familiarity and whose language is a mystery to them.

We sold all our UK properties to live abroad. We have rented houses we neither could afford to or wanted to buy. If we are dissatisfied with our lives in country x or country y we can easily move on -just a call to Pickfords.  We could have bought but decided not to. Some will say we have paid more than enough rent to cover the cost of buying a modest apartment and that is true. But we chose a different route. That was our free choice. We will not stay and whinge or whinge from a distance because of disappointment with some thing or other.

It must be borne in mind that hundreds of thousands of property transactions to foreign nationals in Spain have taken place in the last couple of decades and that 99% of them passed without any problem whatsoever. Of the 1% that didn't, some could be attributed to malpractice, as in the case of Goodstich, others to innocence, greed or downright stupidity.  I leave others to ponder as to which category Norman S falls into.

It still amazes me that so many retired people of modest means and scant experience of 'abroad' decided to invest their life savings in a country of which they really knew little. The fact that so many of them have done so without trouble of any kind and are happily enjoying their new life speaks volumes for Spain and its people.

Some very good points have been raised here.  My first experiences of Spain were in 1968 (can anyone beat that?!).  I was actually living and working in Gibraltar at the time, however enjoyed trips to Spain using the ferry from Gib (the border was closed shortly after I arrived - nothing to do with me I hasten to add!).  As a child I lived in Canada for three years, though I can´t remember very much about that, and subsequently lived in various places in England due to my father changing jobs.  John was in the Army so used to living in different places too, so we both felt we wouldn´t have any problems with moving and living abroad rather than just going on holiday.  Like Praguepix I find it amazing that other retired people who have never experienced living abroad make the move and my advice to anyone considering this would be to rent first before buying property in a different country.

As stated previously, our first experience of buying in Spain wasn´t good and we suspect that we will never get our deposit back, however by the time we found out that the developer had gone into voluntary administration we had signed a rental contract for an apartment in Jumilla.  We decided to stay on and look at buying another property here, and eventually moved into our new home in April last year, after renting for just over a year.  Yes we had a negative experience in Spain, but bad things happen all over and we would never blame this on the Spanish nation as a whole, just as we hope Spaniards don´t assume all Brits are like some of the drunken louts that come to Spain on cheap holidays!

Shortly after we moved into our new apartment, somebody broke into our trastero and stole fans and heaters that we had stored there.  This was another negative experience, however the reaction of our Spanish neighbours helped to make up for this.  Isobel, whom we had only met once, drove us to the Guardia Civil and offered to wait there with us, and Juan (whom we had never met at that stage) knocked on our door to say how sorry he was to hear about the robbery and would we like to use his trastero to store the remainder of our belongings in.  The majority of people we have met in Jumilla have been kind, helpful and welcoming - and we know other British people living in this area who say exactly the same.

We chose to live in Spain for a variety of reasons: the better climate (though it can get very cold in winter), the different culture, the pace of life (having lived in London for many years), the cheaper cost of living, the good food and wine, the friendliness we had experienced when on holiday here and because we wanted a challenge once we retired.  As we both have families, we didn´t want to move too far from the UK so another factor was that we could fly back if need be in a few hours.

Do we have any regrets?  So far, I am happy to say, we have none.

Sue

Pitby said

''Living in a country - any country - isn't all about its legal system and buying a property in it!!''

Pitby

please don't ask me to acknowledge you have brains when you come out with a statement like that!   The legal system and buying a property  (or trying to)  has a huge influence on people's lives in every country.

Well, Goodstitch, is it really!  I know many of expats in the UAE who have lived there for over thirty years and weren't permitted by law to purchase/own property there until very recently.  And a country which has a legal system that I won't even go into on here as it's not really relevant!  And what about those the world over who choose not to, or indeed are not able to for one reason or another, purchase a property of any sort? 

So where did those issues come into force in their decisions to live there?

What a load of b**@s! 

''Living in a country - any country - isn't all about its legal system and buying a property in it!!''

Why does making that statement mean you have no brains? What an arrogant statement

There are many people who have lived all ther lives and never bought a property. In the UK and Spain

There are faults in some areas of Spains legal system, but not all areas-bit like lots of countries really including the UK

This doesn't mean there are not positives in Spain and if people think so and want to say so good on them. On this thread many have also mentioned the negatives as well which is correct and keeps things balanced.

We seem to have got to the stage where a small percentage of multi-national property purchasers in all of Spain have had desperately unfair experiences. This does not mean that on this particular thread they should continually impose their un-balanced veiw on everybody all of the time.

What about "Is buying property in Spain really that bad??????

I for one do not feel i have to wear a "hair shirt'' because of their misfortune!!

In my time as an EOS member I have read some patronizing ill-informed and plainly ludicrous posts but Goodstich's  latest post takes the biscuit

I must remember to tell my Mother that she has no brains and doesn't have a right to comment on living in England (which she has done for all of her  75 years) because she has never interacted with the legal system by buying a property.

 If she thinks that all her years of  war, poverty,  struggle,marriage, child raising, working , loving, retiring etc under governments of all hues give her the right to comment on her homeland then she has another think coming... according to Goodstich

Utter tosh from a one-issue-wonder!

I can't beat your 1968 but can share it, Sue!  At that time I was a student , not a lot of money to throw about. I travelled down the coast then cut across to Madrid then over to the Atlantic coast. As you will remembera, Spain then bore little resemblance to the Spain of today. A decade later I then spent five years or so of summers living in a friend's finca in what was then tranquil, rural Ibiza but moved on when the Brit vulgarians started taking over.

This buying off-plan fascinates me. It seems that there are, obviously, two sides to this: the developer who has no funds to begin the project and hopes to attract sufficient interest to enable him to carry it through to completion. The advantage to him: no need to commit capital to a project which may or may not prove successful. Then the purchaser: the only advantage accruing to a purchaser of a non-existent commodity is comparative cheapness. If the saving of money is not a lure then what on earth can persuade someone to part with a goodly sum of money for something which has as yet no material existence?  And in a foreign country??

Now there is nothing per se wrong with this concept -but there is of course a very clear and substantial element of risk. Off-plan buying has some resemblance to a Ponzi scheme -it relies on a growing number of investors for it to bear fruit. If they don't materialise the project fails and early investors sadly stand to lose their money.

As a strong supporter of a free-market system (albeit regulated) I accept risk as an every-day component of life in the world of business.  What I find strange is the attitude of some of the losers in the game who blame everybody but themselves for their risky venture having gone sour. Why some people expect taxpayers to compensate for risk gone the wrong way baffles me. If I invest, take risks and make a profit, I don't expect to be faced with a heavy tax burden. Neither do I expect others to bail me out. if my investment bombs.

It must surely be no surprise that a construction company so lacking in funds or unwilling to commit its own capital to a project can go into liquidation taking its investors' capital with it. 

I am not referring here to cases of deception but to straightforward off-plan deals offered by reputable companies which for whatever reason go wrong.

I can't beat your 1968 but can share it, Sue!  At that time I was a student , not a lot of money to throw about. I travelled down the coast then cut across to Madrid then over to the Atlantic coast. As you will remembera, Spain then bore little resemblance to the Spain of today. A decade later I then spent five years or so of summers living in a friend's finca in what was then tranquil, rural Ibiza but moved on when the Brit vulgarians started taking over.

This buying off-plan fascinates me. It seems that there are, obviously, two sides to this: the developer who has no funds to begin the project and hopes to attract sufficient interest to enable him to carry it through to completion. The advantage to him: no need to commit capital to a project which may or may not prove successful. Then the purchaser: the only advantage accruing to a purchaser of a non-existent commodity is comparative cheapness. If the saving of money is not a lure then what on earth can persuade someone to part with a goodly sum of money for something which has as yet no material existence?  And in a foreign country??

Now there is nothing per se wrong with this concept -but there is of course a very clear and substantial element of risk. Off-plan buying has some resemblance to a Ponzi scheme -it relies on a growing number of investors for it to bear fruit. If they don't materialise the project fails and early investors sadly stand to lose their money.

As a strong supporter of a free-market system (albeit regulated) I accept risk as an every-day component of life in the world of business.  What I find strange is the attitude of some of the losers in the game who blame everybody but themselves for their risky venture having gone sour. Why some people expect taxpayers to compensate for risk gone the wrong way baffles me. If I invest, take risks and make a profit, I don't expect to be faced with a heavy tax burden. Neither do I expect others to bail me out. if my investment bombs.

It must surely be no surprise that a construction company so lacking in funds or unwilling to commit its own capital to a project can go into liquidation taking its investors' capital with it. 

I am not referring here to cases of deception but to straightforward off-plan deals offered by reputable companies which for whatever reason go wrong.

Praguepix, fascinating posting but where do bank guarantees established by this government (presumably) to offset all those risks come into your equation?

Praguepix, there was another reason for off plan and they weren't all from under financed developers. 

When house prices were rising (remember them good old heady days?) it meant the buyer, who may want to move in a couple of years, could purchase a property and have it fixed at the price they could afford as property always went up in price (again, remember the good old days?).  Buying somewhere at, say, 100,000 euros meant you could put the 10,000 euros as a deposit and stage the payments over the next couple of years with the final payment on completion.  An excellent way to do it if you wanted to, say, sell a property first and you could have ample time to do so.  If you wanted to wait until you had the money, that property would probably have gone up to 150,000 and your pound wouldn't have got you so much.

For the builder or developer, they could take in the deposits and purchase the land without having to take out expensive bank loans.  As they got payment in stages,, they could continue the build, again without the expensive bank loans and it would keep their cash flow going.  So, almost a win-win all round.

Of course, some developers got greedy and used the money to buy more land.  Then came the collapse (and it's only a couple of years ago, remember) and people decided not to buy, especially the British as their pound started to fall and property in Spain was no longer cheap.  That 100,000 I mentioned, in 2000 it was only around 66,000 pounds.  Just 2 years ago, it would have been around 72,000 pounds.  Then, in a very short while, it was almost 100,000 pounds.  And that's not counting the rise in the cost of the property. This meant the builder now had expensive land and no money coming in to build.  They took out bank loans but couldn't afford the repayments and a lot of them went to the wall.  Property was no longer rising in value, on the contrary, it began to fall so the cost of buying "second hand" became cheaper even if you were willing to wait. 

And, remember, all this has happened in just the last 2 or 3 years.  10 years ago it was all boom and boom with no bust.  I defy anyone to say, hand on heart without the benefit of hindsight, that they knew the banks would go bust, the pound would collapse to the value it is today (I have said that I saw it going down but had no inkling it would fall below 1.25 and people thought I was being pessimistic at that rate) and Spain would lose its allure as the in-place to buy property.

However, contrary to some opinions, there are some good builders/developers out there.  There are some good, well built houses with proper ventilation, damp courses, earthed plumbing and all the things people say the Spanish don't put in their houses.  There are also some good solicitors who are not owned by the agents or builders and will honestly try to help you.  It took me a long time to find them (on purchasing my second property) but only because I dealt with the bad ones on my first purchase and then took the time to look around, check out recommendations and not believe what agents told me. 

Am I happy?  I am now.  Will living in Spain be bad for me?  How the hell do I know?  I can only hope.  I just hope I don't get as jaded as some who have had a bad experience and now lump everybody in the same category.

Praguepix

We must be of a similar age!

Bobaol

An excellent post, which sums up our initial position when deciding to buy off-plan.  We only had enough for a deposit initially, plus in our naivety we believed that our new home would be ready by the time we retired. It seemed like a good way to buy a lovely new home at a reasonable price, the idea being to sell up in the UK once it was ready, which would give us funds for completion.  Once everything went pear-shaped, we then had to decide whether to stay in the UK or move to Spain, so decided to sell up, move to Spain and buy a more modest property.  We are happy at the moment and making the most of each day, after all who knows what tomorrow may bring?

Sue

Bobaol...thanks for your post. Very interesting explanation. But in the end there is still an element of risk involved and as I said I am hugely risk-averse!!  I don't like the idea of any long-term commitment be it in the form of mortgages, loans or any type of credit. A rather old-fashioned view, I admit and yes, I can see the advantages of off-plan for some buyers.  .  I just like to have the goods in my hand!!!

Even a timid soul like me can't avoid risk entirely, I know....that's life. What annoys me is that some people accept the concept of risk only when they are beneficiaries.

Ads....what bank guarantees?  If you are telling me that the Spanish taxpayer is subsidising failed construction companies then I'm glad I'm not a Spanish taxpayer. (All income falls under DTOs).  My blood pressure goes dangerously high when I read the dubious purposes to which my UK tax take is being put.

Sue....yes, I guess we are the same age -in my head I'm several years younger though .  I share your positive outlook - no point in pondering ill-luck or bad choices. Move on, is my motto. Since moving to Spain we've been ripped off a couple of times -we were naive and inexperienced ....for a very short while!   But it wasn't the Spanish who did it - it was Brits, Latinos and Morroccans. I've just returned from a two-hour walk with the dog and every single Spanish person I met on the way greeted me with a cheery 'Hola!'  The only miserable-looking people I encountered were a group of sour-looking British OAPs being led by a young woman guide as if they were pre-school children.  The beach was deserted, the sun shone, the sea sparkled, Gibraltasr and the coast of Africa stood out clear in the near distance........Viva Espana!!!

Praguepix. With respect I think you have misunderstood the inital purpose of bank guarantees .......they were supposedly established by the Spanish government to address the risks associated with off plan purchase (there's the joke) to encourage investors to Spain, and thereby presumably bring with them financial benefits to the country that follow from foreign investment of that nature. The emphasis was on encouraging foreign investment which as we all know has unfortunately backfired due to all manner of reasons that have been well documented on EOS.

Many (not all I hasten to add) were duped by their legal advisers thinking that all was above board with regard to bank guarantees, but no point repeating all of this here as there are other threads dedicated to that topic.

Ads....I understand what bank guarantees are but I was completely unaware that the Spanish Government was subsidising/risk safeguarding the construction industry in this way. I would be interested to learn more......did anyone receive any payouts from these guarantees?   If you think people on this site have read enough of all this, perhaps a pm might be in order, if you have time, that is.

An article in a recent issue of 'The Economist 'put Spain's current woes down to its misguided plan to make Spain the Florida of Europe. Most of the current 20% unemployment stems from the now almost extinct construction industry and the decline in Costas tourism.  It suggested the emphasis should now focus on hi-tech bio projects (which the Spanish apparently excel at) and the development of tourism inland. The Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao is apparently a massive earner. Encouraging tourism to places of cultural significance would most probably attract a higher-spending clientele than the beer'n'burgers crowd. Countries such as Turkey and Tunisia have certainly managed to shed their former cheap'n'cheerful low-end package tour image and now offer vastly improved facilities for a more discriminating holidaymaker.

But until the Spanish Government shows itself willing to bring in much-needed reforms to the labour market and to tackle entrenched public-sector interests I fear no progress will be made.

However......the sun is shining so all the negatives can be put aside for a while....

Praguepix.

Maria is best placed to advise on that front re BG''s, their olriginal purpose, and where things have gone wrong for all too many folk who considered they were following all the right processes to minimise the risk of off plan purchase. You only have to look at the Spanish Property Scandal Petition to understand many people's plight.

I find your postings very enlightening and you make some sound suggestions but please can you add to your list that the government be willing to address the major failings within the existing justice  administration system, which again have been documented within the threads entitled rough justice, and rough justice yet again, in order for Spain to progress .

As far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be an us and them scenario (i.e. those who are enjoying Spain right now against those who have unwittingly suffered at the lack of justice in Spain through no fault of their own). We should all be working together to better the system so that those who had good intentions of investing in Spain can be encouraged to do so again without fear of corruption, without fear of judges being politicized with a clear lack of independence, to quote Maria's own words, without fear of being used as political pawns in illegal build scenarios, etc etc. It's a nightmare what's happening to many right now, and I'm sorry to bring this up on this thread as I had every intention of steering clear of this given the thread's title, but I couldn't just sit by and read comments or observations that needed some further explanation.. Hope I'm forgiven on that front!

I for one find those who inform of their positive views on Spain just as interesting and educational as those who identify the failings, but I just get frustrated on occasions by those who consider that we are on oppositie sides of the track. I would prefer to think that we all have an interest to pro-actively (and there's the key) correct failings by coming together to vociferously support reform on many levels (people power), so that Spain can ultimately be reviewed in a more positive light, instead of being viewed as a country where corruption, and horrendous injustice prevails. It has so much going for it but I wish we could stand as one instead of back biting on occasions, each thinking the other is unwilling to look at the overall picture of what's happening in Spain right now.

I will now just sit back if you don't mind and continue to be educated by all you good folk who are living in Spain right now.

 Dear All,

thank you everyone for some interesting information about yourselves, we would not be on EOS as members if we did not seek such information.

It would be difficult to improve on Bobaol's post - excellent.

what a very strange person, to reply to a post in an offensive manner, branding us unfortunate trusting souls as greedy idiots, or worse and then add that she is just a timid risk averse person who was really talking about speculators she knew.

It does not matter how many times I read the post I can see it no other way.

there is no doubt that brains are involved, but how very twisted those thoughts are.

but just to try to help the afflicted, it is a fact that the whole world, in the main, buys materials that do not exist at the time of ordering to specification.

even when goods are staring you in the face you still depend on their specification to some extent, unless of course everything you buy is from a boot fair or similar.

anyway good luck with whatever you buy and wherever you live, but to live anywhere you apparently need a partner who isn't when you are "risk averse".

does he have to help you cross the road I wonder???

Regards

Norman

ads said

'As far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be an us and them scenario (i.e. those who are enjoying Spain right now against those who have unwittingly suffered at the lack of justice in Spain through no fault of their own). We should all be working together to better the system so that those who had good intentions of investing in Spain can be encouraged to do so again without fear of corruption, without fear of judges being politicized with a clear lack of independence,'.............

ads'

well hands up here, I've certainly rubbed people up the wrong way to often, but what you say above and the rest of your post is exactly how I feel. I think we need a truce?.

Norman Sands.....you obviously have more front than Harrods....accusing others of offensive posts takes the biscuit when a glance through your meanderings on this and other threads shows a mind which resorts to smears and abuse as a substitute for reasoned debate. I would certainly not seek you out socially and I prefer not to waste my time with you online. From now on I shall ignore your posts and I would be happy for you to behave in the same manner.  I need no-one to 'hold my hand' but you clearly need a course in manners and an English dictionary. Bitterness has obviously had a lasting effect on you. which is rather sad.

Now to the sensible people:

Ads....yes, we should be working along with our Spanish hosts to address the all too obvious shortcomings which still exist at so many levels here. Some time ago I floated the suggestion that the Junta de Andalucia should  proclaim an immediate moratorium on all proposed demolitions pending the setting up of independent local committees to examine the facts relating to each case. The facts having been ascertained, compensation should be paid to anyone judged to be the victim of deception or fraud of any kind. Should the guilty party be a developer, then his assets, personal and commercial, should be sequestrated and the victims reimbursed.  Should the guilty party turn out to be a local official, elected or professional, he should be removed from office immediately.  I was disappointed that this was not put forward in the speech on the subject made by a UK MEP recently at the European Parliament. Sadly she confined her remarks to a general condemnation of the situation with no specific suggestions as to what should be done other than a halt to demolitions which is clearly not acceptable as many of the properties in question are illegal builds. A wasted opportunity as the JDA would have been obliged to make some kind of response to the suggestion.

Anyone with the ability to read my posts carefully would have understood two clear points: 1) that most property transactions have fortunately gone through without any problem and 2) of the minority that haven't, there are many innocent people who deserve recognition of what has happened to them in this country. I hold to the view that a minority of the minority have only themselves to blame for their misfortunes for one reason or another. That is my view for which I have some evidence and I am entitled to hold it.

Moaning from the UK or anywhere for that matter will do nothing to resolve the situation. Through my previous legal work in the UK I have been able to make many contacts, among them Members of the European Parliament whom I have contacted with the aim of ascertaining their views on the situation in Spain. Sadly I have not received a single satisfactory response but I shall be in the UK shortly on business and hope to get a face-to-face meeting with at least one MEP. to discuss what might be done.

And let us not forget that Spaniards and many other nationalities have suffered at the hands of unscrupulous developers and local municipalities eager to boost their local revenues. No 'them and us' indeed.

Completely agree with Bobaol and Ads recent posts which were well composed, impartial , inoffensive and reasoned without the been there done that know it all factor!

It has been said that I have not commented on living in Spain, so here is my two penneth worth.

My expereinces of  living in Spain  if I am allowed to call my time there living, is in 1984 people said we were mad to buy in Spain. We weren't although we didn't know that at the time, but we were a lot younger then and prepared to take a risk! It went without a hitch and we had NO problems for 16 years spending extended periods of time there due to my husbands work rotation and we loved every minute in Torre del Mar which was completely undeveloped then, the fields at the bottom of the road were still ploughed with oxen..  but our house did have a post box and we had mail delivered to our address It was everything people's dream of Spain was/is. Quality of build was fine and the urbanization with pool  was well run and maintained at reasonable cost. There were no supermarkets and we watched as the town developed over the years. Cost of living was cheap although for some reason garden furniture was very expensive as were washing machines.

The following is pretty boring so unless you are very nosey or bored yourself suggest you skip it !!!!

We decided to buy a bigger place for our retirement and we spent 2 years trawling the country as the Costa del Sol was too expensive for what we wanted.. Off plan seemed a good  idea for the reason explained by Bobaol and we eventually sold our family home in the UK and bought a shoebox to fund the Spanish villa which was completed in 2004. It has been a difficult time with very distressing and stressful problems with the builder, ongoing problems with the way the urbanization is run by an incompetent control freak (lots going on there, I call el presidente 'she who must be obeyed', )  Our experiences of similar organizations in the UK is very different. Telefonica wont install broadband which to keep in touch with family and friends around the world at a reasonable cost we find indispensible, we have a moblie connection which is expensive and very s-l-o-w. Urbanization fees are very high for what we get, council tax  is expensive, cost of living has gone up a lot and living in Spain is no longer cheap so I can undertand why people on fixed incomes are having financial difficulties.The beaurocracy is over complicated and inefficient and no-one including the Spanish seem to undertand it  which can lead to much confusion and misunderstanding, some threads on EOS confirm this!  The hospital treatment I received in September was quick and efficient  initially, but  the aftercare was not so good and the clinic I had to go to afterwards to have stitches removed was shambolic.  And yes I know how the NHS does not always deliver but actually my experiences and those of my family of the NHS are good, and I have certainly never experienced anything in Europe like the clinic I went to, North Africa yes, Europe no. We have also had problems with the police not investigating quite a serious car crash when a  big Mercedes rammed our little hired Punto on the motorway  nearly  pushing us off the road and causing a lot of damage to our car  whilst  they  were racing another car . But because it was registered in Madrid the police didn't want to know which astonished us. All we got was the shoulder shrug, so although this could have happened anywhere it was the response of the police that  is so worrying.  We can't even get mail delivered to the urbanization never mind our house. Following our own experiences, more than I will further bore anyone with here, and hearing other people's far worse horror stories I now find myself suspicious and wary.

Of course it's not all bad.....! Our house is lovely and in a lovely location, the weather is usually (!) good and we have no problems getting into siesta mode. And fortunately  within the ex pat community who are in the minority anyway, the obligatory contingent of  loud, opinionated know it all's are few.  I also feel the worst has passed regarding corruption etc. that doesn't help those still fighting for recompense but may help future buyers if there are any. 

Could go on and on but I guess this is too long already, but in answer to 'is living in Spain really that bad now', well it's not as good for us even though in comparison to some we have been fortunate in that we did get our house in the end. But everyone will have a different answer  to this for different reasons and who is to say who's right or wrong?

These are my personal observations and feelings and  I fully appreciate that many people are happily living in Spain and will not have the same opinion as I do, I wish them well and hope they continue to enjoy it for a long time. To those embarking on a new adventure I wish you the best of  luck and hope it works out well for you and for those with ongoing problems I sincerely hope they are resolved sooner rather than later.

Phew, thats my final comment on this thread!  I am sure there will be those who will pull it to pieces but I really don't care!

The End.

This message was last edited by Poppyseed on 12/03/2010.

"but in answer to 'is living in Spain really that bad now', well it's not as good for us even though in comparison to some we have been fortunate in that we did get our house in the end. But everyone will have a different answer  to this for different reasons and who is to say who's right or wrong?"

Poppyseed, great post and that just about sums it up for those of you who have properties here, but don't actually live their lives here - is that correct?

The only thing I would say is that living as an expat isn't living with a holiday home.  Funny, I was chatting with a friend tonight, who was in the same situation as us really - lived abroad for much of their lives, living here in Spain as they had bought property here whilst living abroad and then found themselves in the situation where this was the best place to base themselves.  Not particularly wanting to return to the UK - which they really hadn't seen in many years!

One of the main issues I, personally, see is that people don't appreciate that seasoned expats don't look upon the country they live in as "foreign", they look upon it as their home.  For whatever reason people are living here, as Poppyseed said, they have decided to make it their home!  And no one, but NO ONE, can criticise them for that or admonish them for their decision!

At the end of the day, for us, this is home - it's not 'living in Spain' it's just 'home'.

And, if I find out we've won the lottery tonight, I think we would still choose to live here!