| The Comments |
There is also the age demographic and the falling birth rate in Europe especially in Germany. The fact is that westernised women are either not having children at all or having them much later. There are many reasons for that mainly women have careers and don’t want to have the burden of children. What it does is leave a skill shortage for the following generations.
It is a recognised problem and immigrants can fill that gap. They tend to more conservative culturally; have more children since they are yet to embrace the career structure ladder and values of the established population. Their children become educated, develop skills and embrace the indigenous values and can go on to make a vital contribution to their societies.
I know you can find tabloid media examples of how the opposite is true but in general terms that’s what happens.
Immigration has been going on since man first stood on two legs. It has been a major contribution to the development of mankind for tens of millennia.
The vote for Brexit was misguided and made by an ill-informed population about the future path of their nation. However history is littered with such things and the people have a right in a democracy to turn back the clock if they so wish. Governments also have a responsibility to see that choice through even if they have to hold they collective noses to do it.
It will only be a temporary phenomenon anyway. In another fifty years the British I believe will vote to return to the EU or some new such structure. Nations have to work together in some form of political and economic union. Nations cannot exist without it.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
0
Like
|
Misguided and ill informed. So typical of you.
1
Like
|
Mickyfinn,
When you joined this forum and were asked to confirm that you were not a robot, did you tell a little porky?
_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
2
Like
|
I would invite you to look at the most successful country on the planet, the USA. A country made from immigrants from the entire globe. Immigration or free movement of people can only benefit a nation not cause it harm.
You can make as many snide comment you like on my views which only encourage me to fight further for what I believe in.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
2
Like
|
I was only joking (whoops), but I'm beginning to think that I was correct, by the way, 'comment' is singular.
_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
2
Like
|
There wasn't any benefits or safety net in those days though Micky.
1
Like
|
It seems extraordinary that those pre Brexit who made such an outcry about the NHS gross figures during the referendum debate, and failed to recognise the net figures that were further clarified during the debate, and then post Brexit rightly identify that Cameron's Govt failed to adequately recoup monies from EU states during the years of his tenure when migration increased significantly which exacerbated the NHS deficit ( as identified by Govt statistical evidence....hence the call for parliamentary question from John Mann MP who identified that UK paid out £674 million to EU countries for their health costs last year, but recvd only £49 million in return), have now decided this plays no part in the Brexit debate!
You would think they would be pleased that a pilot scheme to correct these administrative failures is now being examined, which should assist the NHS system and reduce the deficit..... and that citizens should be made aware of these ongoing corrective endeavours...
But no, they choose to suggest that this plays no part in the ongoing debate.
0
Like
|
Sorry, Ads, it's not a "pilot" scheme at all. That hospital is doing it because they have been so bad at claiming in the past so have tried to up the game a bit. The charges have been in for a long time (I've been retired 6 years and they were "guidelines" at least 15 years before that. t's just that they weren't followed up and, if things got a bit difficult, were just swept under the carpet. You seem to have a downer on Cameron about it but I can assure you it was being referred to as the "International Health Service" in a disparaging way during the Blair years, let alone Brown and then Cameron.
This was long, long before a referendum was even thought of so I can't see how you are equating NIgerians flying in to give birth or Ghanaians flying in for cancer treatment as a Brexit problem.
However, as usual, you get a bee in your bonnet and look around for anything that might agree with your point of view. You've had the opinion of someone who was on the front line for many years (I qualified in 1972, by the way) and worked up through staff nurse, nurse practitioner, district nurse and health visitor in case you're wondering with the only break a 5 year stint in the QARANC at BMH Rinteln, Germany) and if you don't want to accept it's been going on for a lot longer than you think then fine. It's the admin part of it all that needs sorting out and has been the problem for many years. And I would think it pretty obvious that it is the opening up of the EU to Eastern EU countries like Bulgaria and Romania which has caused the increase and this happened way before Cameron came in, either as the coalition or in his own party's right. It was one of Tony Blair's last deed in office to put a block of 6 years on the new countries having free access to UK which ran out in 2013 and makes it look like Cameron opened the floodgates when it was a previously decided decision by a previous government.
Hope that clears some of it up.
2
Like
|
I would invite you to look at the most successful country on the planet, the USA. A country made from immigrants from the entire globe. Immigration or free movement of people can only benefit a nation not cause it harm.
You can make as many snide comment you like on my views which only encourage me to fight further for what I believe in.
.................................
i would love to know your definition of success if you think a country that has given its voters a choice between Donald Trump and Hilary Clinton, as successful.
Even if they do some things well, they are a collection of immigrants who originally killed off most of the native Americans, so they could take their land.
They all learned to speak English to ensure they could work etc. But even then the various ethnic groups fought each other tooth and nail for supremacy in the towns and cities.
They got wealthy through slave labour and have a terrible record of not too distant past, racial equality.
They eventually took a UK model and extended the democracy which is what the EU is trying to reduce.
They have an abhorrence of a welfare state and still don't have a free health service
They have a similar language, similar pay rates and workers rights but no minimum wage and an American identity of which they are proud, a culture that is only 250 years old, unlike Europe, where everyone tries to tell us that integration is a wonderful thing but often only works when languages are shared, otherwise national ghettos can develop.
2
Like
|
Hugh,
This could well turn into a pub banter topic, and far be it for me to defend the US. But just a quick recap, would include worlds largest economy, and this was done, as you rightly mention, whilst being a very young country compared to others in Europe.
Just to add to this, in the modern history sense, the US helped immensely in the world wars, and, frankly, saved much of Europe. They are also instrumental through NATO today.
Many of your comments I would outright agree with, but at the same time, I'd say they're a very selective slice in time, and very narrow in terms of what the US has done, and who they've helped.
I dont want to go down the path of comparing negatives amongst nations, because thats very much a case of "talking down." But since you raised a few points, in the interests of balance, I think its only fair to comment.
US Politicians - UK Brexit, Cameron, Gove, BoJo, Submarine May, Farage
The US and its treatment of indigenous - look at the British conquest of Australia, and what has become of the Australian Aboriginal.
US Slave labour - Look at the East India Trading Company
1842 - the advent of the steam engine in Britain allows the crowns forces to project power far up river, and deeper into foreign lands than ever before.
The Commonwealth is a good example of the UKs colonial expansion, even into the Americas; resulting in the war of Independence. For all its experience, the older European powers were unable to defeat the younger American nation.
************
We all love to make fun of the Americans (or Seppos as we like to call them). But they have certainly come a long way in a relatively short space of time.
1
Like
|
With respect Mariedav I do not have a bee in my bonnet as you suggest, nor have I ignored your observations with regard to previous Blair Brown years. The fact I was trying to make (obviously failed miserably ;) was that the years identified as being statistically significant in terms of swift and sharp increases in migration were from 2014 onwards when the transition period came to an end for Romania and Bulgaria and at a time when EU citizens were understandably increasingly seeking work in the UK given the high incidence of unemployment in their own member states, plus their earning capacities were perceived as being far greater in the UK.
My point being that Cameron's Govt should have been monitoring this to far greater effect during his tenure (forward planning in terms of the ending of transitions) and also given the swift increases they should have responded far more effectively and recognise the extent to which the administrative system was failing miserably to recoup monies from the relevant EU member states, which in itself was exacerbating the pressures on an already overstretched NHS.
It is this failure to adequately forward plan and respond, plus their incredulous miscalculation to abandon a stability mechanism previously put in place to assist areas in growing need from migration pressures, why I am so critical of Cameron's Govt and the part it played in exacerbating the fears and concerns of the British voting public with regard to the NHS.
As for this not being a "pilot" scheme your observations appear to be at odds with the Telegraph article which identified the following
"Laura Donnelly, Health Editor 10 October 2016 • 10:16pm
Pregnant women will be forced to hand over passports before they give birth at NHS hospitals under controversial proposals to clamp down on health tourism.
A pilot scheme backed by the Home Office will see every mother-to-be told to prove their right to use the health service when their labour is booked in.
The London trust behind the scheme said all those seeking to give birth would be asked for photo identification, or proof of right to remain in this country. The trust board papers also say changes in the law will mean patients are charged for ambulance and A&E services if they cannot provide proof of identity, unless the situation is an emergency or matter of life and death.
"At booking every patient will need to show a form of photo ID or proof of their right to remain"Trust board papers St George’s University Hospitals Foundation trust said the problem of maternity tourism was escalating at hospitals across the country.
The trust said it was now proposing a “blanket” approach to all women in order to avoid charges of discrimination. Board papers reveal that the pilot scheme is being devised as part of national efforts to ensure that proof of ID is routinely presented before patients access all NHS care, including at Accident & Emergency.
NHS trusts are already supposed to charge overseas patients from outside Europe for the cost of healthcare, unless they have lived in the UK long enough to become eligible for treatment. But until now, there have been limited attempts to pursue costs of maternity care, with bills only sent after the birth, and often going unpaid.
Under the new proposals, women will have to prove their right to use the NHS when their procedure is planned. “At booking every patient will need to show a form of photo ID or proof of their right to remain (asylum status, visa, etc),” the October trust board papers say.
“Any patient who is unable to do this will be referred to the trust’s overseas patient team for specialist document screening, in liaison with the UK Border Agency and the Home Office,” they continue. The papers, seen by Health Service Journal, state that the trust would create a “blanket process for every woman referred or self-referred to St George’s for obstetric care” in order to avoid any charges of discrimination.
“No one will be discriminated against,” the document says.
“The intention is for this to become standard procedure.” The board papers state that the Home Office is “very keen to formally support this pilot”.
As you can see the observations to "pilot " are many, as is the inference to this being reviewed as a means to correct the administrative failings.
I do appreciate and respect your first hand observations Mariedav but I hope you can appreciate that my criticism of Cameron's Govt is not an attempt to deny previous Govts failings but to bring attention to the compromising failure of forward planning and reform in this whole sorry saga, something that I am equally critical of with regard to the intransigence of EU bureaucrats!
This message was last edited by ads on 13/10/2016.
0
Like
|
I am not abig fan of the USa as they have a lot of problems but..........
Even if they do some things well, they are a collection of immigrants who originally killed off most of the native Americans, so they could take their land.
Did the great British empire (or other great conquering empires do anything different
.......... But even then the various ethnic groups fought each other tooth and nail for supremacy in the towns and cities
Many similarities in UK past and present
They got wealthy through slave labour and have a terrible record of not too distant past, racial equality.
You could say the very same about the UK who also have a terrible history of violeince, slavery etc.
They have an abhorrence of a welfare state and still don't have a free health service
Agree this is on the of the biggest issues for me about the USA disgusting attitude of the USA which is the other extreme of the UK system
They have a similar language, similar pay rates and workers rights but no minimum wage
You need to check you facts on this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States#State
and an American identity of which they are proud, a culture that is only 250 years old, unlike Europe, where everyone tries to tell us that integration is a wonderful thing but often only works when languages are shared, otherwise national ghettos can develop.
Integration can work it has in the UK and other countries
National pride is a disease which the world could do without or at least keep to the sports field - no nation is that clean and most have a very bad history how can anyone be proud of their ancestory when their legacy / history is littered with violence against fellow human beings.
This message was last edited by Tadd1966 on 13/10/2016.
This message was last edited by Tadd1966 on 13/10/2016.
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
1
Like
|
All nations on earth have developed in ways that today would be mostly unacceptable. It's always misleading to look at the past through the prisim of the present day. Alsothe past social history of developed nations is not a reason to justify why immigration should be considered as a negative today.
I believe immigration of skilled labour an absolute necessity to the advancement of a modern society. Even unskilled immigrant labour is needed because the indigenous peoples prefer to claim social benefits rather than work in hard manual or dirty jobs. That is a situation tolerated by western governments because they subscribe to the post war social welfare consensus.
Since 1945 there was a broad multi-partisan national European consensus on social and economic policy, especially regarding the welfare state, nationalised health services, educational reform, a mixed economy, government regulation and Keynesian macroeconomics.
In Britain that model changed somewhat when Margaret Thatcher came to power but it remains the central political philosophy to this day in Europe. I would suggest this difference lies as a base cause of the split between the EU and Britain. The anti EU faction in the Tory Party are in fact reconstituted Thatcherites who were able to influence the British electorate in the referendum by using the immigration card.
The truth is even after Brexit is completed immigration will still continue. The government knows full well that will happen because movement of people is part of the essence of human life. It enriches a society and contributes enormously to it's development.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
1
Like
|
Isn't the relevance to this debate to be willing to learn from historical mistakes but to put into perspective relevant facts that led to the failings of that time in terms of creating a more civilised approach to society, and not be so blinkered or intransigent in this ongoing constant re-evaluation process to demonstrate a willingness to monitor, regulate (where appropriate), examine and seek out best practice that leads to greater harmonious living, rather than remain dogmatic and intransigent in thought just for reasons of political ideology? To remain far more open minded and willing to respond and reform? Doesn't fixed ideology without willingness to admit mistakes and retain open minds to corrective practice act as a barrier to the progression of civilised society?
In this example relating to Brexit isn't it essential to examine the failings that led to this circumstance and identify an approach that listens and responds to genuine citizens concerns but in a way that leads to a civilised resolution that works both for Europe and the UK without fear of upsetting those from all political persuasions who appear to refuse to remove the shackles of political ideology?
1
Like
|
The problem as I see it, is that the representitives of the electorate are not representing them in the manner that they would wish. The personal opinions of MP's does not supercede the wishes of their constituants, I'm beginning to agree with Nick Clegg, in that whatever their exit strategy ends up being, the electorate should have the final say, this should have the effect of making them think twice about any potentially contentious decisions.
_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
1
Like
|
Destry
Couple of points
When have the representatives of the electorate represented them in a manner they wish?
How many voters actually know the personal opinions of their MP – most don’t even know their MP’s name!
As the Brexit vote was not done by constituencies the MP’s views are irrelevant they had the same vote as everyone else.
Should the MP’s debate any strategy / exit plan in Parliament and vote on it – absolutely yes?
Some argue that the electorate have had their final say in voting out; sadly they didn’t really know what out meant and still nobody does which is why we are in this mess and uncertainty
Are you suggesting a referendum on the exit strategy – now that would be interesting?
Basically the whole thing is a complete farce and a joke. It will go down in history as general election vote winner / publicity stunt by DC that went horribly wrong for everyone.
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
2
Like
|
Destry
Learn from mistakes? Intransigence, political ideology, remain open minded?
Against that, I would offer to you:
1. An exit was proposed, with no actual exit plans, no resources in place (David Davies has to hire experts, even though much was made of demeaning experts in the campaign), and ano agreement with 27 other sovereign nations
2. The pound has plummeted as a direct result of financial markets telling us "it's a mistake"
3. And most heinous of all, I see this morning I can't buy Marmite, because Unilever wants Tesco to compensate them for the currency drop causing issues to a commercial firms input costs
Hmm, have we not had this very discussion on input costs (Windtalker???).
Its a bit like the blind leading the blind, really. The people in charge have no idea where they are, where they're going, or how they're going to get there. Sounds like a recipe for success, surely.
And the big open-minded atttude, is "splendid isolation".
Unilever is one of the first commercial firms that are highlighting the issue, and have come to a screeching halt with a major retailer. You can bet this discussion is being had behind closed doors by a great many firms, but currency costs cannot be avoided. The pound has dropped, and we will see more and more impacts going forwards. Fuel will be going up, and that will find its way into the cost of goods at the till, as it costs more to get the product delivered into the store.
My gut feel is that we are sleep-walking off a cliff. I only said it yesterday, that worse was to come, and this morning, all over the BBC Breakfast news, I can't buy Marmite from Tesco! You couldnt make it up...
4
Like
|
I don't recall Unilever behaving like this when £/€ was as low as 1.02 in 2008. We're at 1.1075 as i write.
1
Like
|
UNILEVER can go and jump off that CLIFF you talk about
WELL DONE TESCO champion the consumer
They wanna play HARD BALL then lets GIVE IT UM
Love Hugh xxx
All there foods are HIGH FAT low NUTRITION
POT NOODLES have the following
Noodles: Noodles (51%) [Wheat Flour, Palm Fat, Salt, Firming Agents (Potassium Carbonate, Sodium Carbonate)], Sauce and Vegetables: Water, Maltodextrin, Wheat Flour, Vegetables (2.7%) [Mushrooms (1.5%), Sweetcorn, Onion Powder], Potassium Chloride, Flavour Enhancers (Monosodium Glutamate, Disodium Inosinate, Disodium Guanylate), Flavourings (contain Wheat, Milk, Sugar, Skimmed Milk Powder, Salt, Palm Fat, Yeast Powder (contains Wheat, Barley), Herbs, Acid (Citric Acid), Mushroom Juice Concentrate, Colour (Curcumin), Sachet: Soy Sauce (1%) (Water, Soy Sauce (Soybeans, Wheat), Salt, Molasses, Sugar, Acid (Citric Acid)]
This message was last edited by hughjardon on 13/10/2016.
_______________________
Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
2
Like
|
If I have building work done I select who I wish to do it and agree a price, check on how it is proceeding and finally if everything has been completed to my satisfaction and is legal. MP's are selected by a commitee, of whom the electorate know very little, they do a lot of smiling and hand shaking prior to entering the theatre of dreams where anything is possible, I still wonder what the correlation between 9/11 and Iraq was.
A majority voted to leave the EU (including me), I don't want the UK to end up with a cobbled together compromise deal that is motivated by greed and individual gain, it's not that long ago since cash for questions and expenses were the flavour of the day, I wouldn't trust those muppets to oil the spring on a pogo stick, so yes I would like the opportunity to say yey or ney to what conclusion the arrive at.
_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
0
Like
|