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Do you see the EU as a panacea Mickeyfinn?
Do you see any reform to address the many failings of the existing system? Are you content to leave the decision making to the current EU bureacrats? Are you blinkered to uncomfortable realities relating to the status quo? Are you prepared to stand outside the box and question your own system that you so fiercely defend?
How often do we hear the phrase " we know the EU is not perfect....."? There is a great difference however between not being perfect and totally intransigent to reform. Political ideology which refuses to recognise the impact on its citizens or be willing to listen to genuine concerns is no panacea and it often takes courage to challenge the status quo to effect well overdue reform.
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I may not win the argument on here and actually I care not. What I do care about is the inevitable decine of the UK if a hard Brexit is done. I try and forsee trends and have tried to highlight the potential disasters that await the nation.
It's pointless to continue speculation. I have made my decisions based on what I believe will happen in the future. I have had to rearrange my life because of Brexit and it's uncomfortable. For people living in Britain you care not of the consequences because people are selish and consider their own needs first. I feel sympathy and solidarity with the hundreds and thousands of EU migrants living and working in Britain whose future is equally now in the balance.
Brexit has damaged our lives in Europe and the UK and we expats must move on and do whatever we need to do before the storm arrives.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 18/09/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickeyfinn, do you not see that the EU have damaged lives with their policies that contributed to unacceptable levels of unemployment across member states, stripping nations of their skill sets, their failure to regulate Banks that continue to impact thousands upon thousands of innocents subjected to high levels of corruption and collusion, illegal mortgage contracts, failure to adequately monitor non adherence to the rule of law where justice systems have subsequently been left exposed to unacceptable levels of litigation, left under resourced and stretched to the limit, turned blind eyes to questionable accession criteria and stability mechanisms in place to protect, their intransigence to recognise how policies have directly led to growing discontent amongst EU citizens that in turn have resulted in a concerning resurgence of extreme left or right wing divisive elements, ... and on and on.
To suggest Brexiteers are selfish by feeling disillusioned with all of the above (and much more) and chosing to exit in full knowledge that EU bureaucrats have failed to reform under growing calls for them to do so during a decade and beyond, to put in place forward planning to realistically deal with migration pressures exacerbated by free movements, etc is wrong and sadly appears as a denial to all too many uncomfortable truths.
This message was last edited by ads on 18/09/2016.
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I may not win the argument on here and actually I care not.
Of course you care Micky, you started the thread and have been posting and arguing all the way through.
What I do care about is the inevitable decine of the UK
Where do you keep your crystal ball? I take it that you are a multi billionaire if you are always certain it is correct.
For people living in Britain you care not of the consequences because people are selish and consider their own needs first. I feel sympathy and solidarity with the hundreds and thousands of EU migrants living and working in Britain whose future is equally now in the balance.
All sides in the UK have said either; 'we will protect the rights of EU migrants in the UK', or; 'it will be part of the negociation but we expect the rights of EU migrants to be protected'.
Brexit has damaged our lives in Europe and the UK and we expats must move on and do whatever we need to do before the storm arrives.
The EU has ridden roughshod over our democratic rights for to long. It has been given decades to rectify itself. We have waited too long. I should sling your crystal ball if I were you because we will do better out of the EU.
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I think there in lies the rub.
It is not about winning or losing arguments on here OR in actuality.
It is all about what is right for the UK for the future and 17mill voters believe the EU has not worked in favour of workers but in favour of burocrats and big business for too long.
To add to that, in recent times the EU has shown no leadership or solution to a horrific refugee crisis.
Bear in mind that many migrants seeking a better life in the UK come here because their countries are not allowed to trade freely with the EU, as they are not in the club, keeping them poor, or they are fleeing authoritarian regimes or indeed just looking for a better chance of finding a job than their own EU country or non EU country as the UK had the the right policies for improving the economy after the crash in 2007 created mainly by the corruption of US banks
Listen to what the people want and stop telling us it will be all doom and gloom, how could it possibly be worse than the current struggling EUrozone economy, waste of EU taxpayers funds and inherent corruption and boys club that presides with the Commissioners and burocrats of Brussels or is it Strasbourg we've moved to this week?
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Mickyfinn it's not for you to try and win the argument regarding the Brexit ,the good people of the UK have already decided and done this for you it's called democracy ,something that the INs .or EU commission can't seem to grasp so get on with you're life and enjoy what's left of it.
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Mickey me owd son time to throw in the TOWEL you are looking very SILLY no ones really bothered over your thesis on the future of the UK I told you to sort yourself out and get back to BLIGHTY and you are still worrying in your magnificent FRENCH chateau
Just get on with your wonderful life in France fine food the best wines in the world
Us BRITS will be ok and if we are not SO WHAT
My belly is full my conscience is clear and I am as happy as a KING you should be too
Love Hugh xx
This message was last edited by hughjardon on 18/09/2016.
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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I asume you will all support this then. The time of the fascists is back. Reason is replaced by fear, The terrorists are winning, slowly defeating western liberal democratic values and replacing them with neo-nationalism and hatred...
In an aircraft hangar on the French Riviera, as thousands of supporters waved French tricolour flags, France’s far-right Front National leader, Marine Le Pen, boomed proudly from the stage: “The time of the nation state is back!”
She praised Britains vote to leave the European Union and said plans to build walls across the world – including one to keep out migrants and refugees at Calais— showed a return to “the time of borders”.
Complaining of the dangers of mass immigration and multiculturalism that she said the EU was forcing on France, she vowed to defend French identity and restore national sovereignty. The crowd chanted “Marine President” and “This is our home”.
With only seven months until the French presidential election, the question of who will lead France remains tantalisingly open. While France’s mainstream parties on the left and right are yet to choose their candidates, Le Pen, who will stand for the FN, calmly claims to have the upper hand.
A glitterball lit up the hangar on Saturday night as she hosted a gala dinner at the party conference to mark the preparations for her 2017 French presidential bid, at one point parading with a trained eagle on her arm.
All polls show that she will easily make it into the final round run-off in May. The tense mood in French society is seen as favourable: more than 230 people have been killed in Islamist terror attacks since January 2015; mass unemployment and economic stagnation hang over daily life; and parties on both the right and left have anxiously appropriated Le Pen’s key preoccupations of immigration, national identity and the place of Islam in France.
The Guardian 19th September
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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German voters take their revenge against Merkel's open-door immigration policy after her party slumps in Berlin election as far-right group enters the state parliament for the first time
- Support for the CDU in Berlin has slumped to its lowest level since 1990
- Many voters turned to the anti-immigrant Alternative for Germany (AfD)
- Far-right party won 13 per cent of vote and will enter capital's parliament
- Mayor had warned a double digit score would be seen as return of 'Nazis'
France...Germany...Who next?
'We won't take migrants posing as refugees': PM Theresa May to tell UN that Britain has a right to control border
- Prime Minister Theresa May will attend her first United Nations summit
- She will be in New York and is expected to speak to world leaders today
- It is believed she will say Britain has the right to control its own borders
Britain has the right to control its borders and turn away the tens of thousands of economic migrants posing as refugees, Theresa May will tell world leaders today.
At her first United Nations summit, the Prime Minister will declare that the 'unprecedented' and 'uncontrolled' wave of immigration into Europe is not in the interests of the UK, the migrants themselves or the countries they leave behind.
Mrs May will reject demands from some UN members and charities for Britain to throw open its borders.
And she will criticise the inaction of global leaders that has let the crisis spiral out of control. Government sources said she will stress that – if public support for genuine refugees is to be maintained – the system must be robust in rooting out abuse by economic migrants.
Oop's....Almost forgot the good ole UK.
This message was last edited by baz1946 on 19/09/2016.
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We're all Brexit now, so even if you didn't vote out, stop moaning and get on with your lives, and as for the 'fascists' , wasn't it their idea to have a European Super State in the first place?
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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Destry, we are entitled to moan as you call it, or be critical as I see it. Brexit was a vote to leave the EU, not a free spin to introduce harmful legislation. So far Brexit has not produced. I accept the decision but intend to be critical of every step taken to enact it.
Right now I am critical that the Brexit brigade has no ideas. The world according to Brexit:
when...don't know. Maybe start it 2017. what will it look like...don't know. But immigration will not be a points system. What will it cost...don't know but we are hiring thousands to work on it. Are we going to stay in the single market...don't know but we expect the EU will bend over for us because we are so important. Where is the £350,000,000 savings per week going to go...don't know, did we say there was going to be £350mm per week, must have been a typo. What happens to EU citizens in the UK and visa versa...don't know, we think we can use them as bargaining chips.
To me Brexit should be defined as a group of people who couldn't organise a knees up in a brewery.
Come on Brexit. Tell us what you are planning. And I don't buy it needs to be kept a secret until we negotiate. It is my darn Country that is putting up the gambling stake and I expect to see our hand before we bet the UK down the toilet.
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Yes one man's moan is another’s critical opposition. Strange is it not these Brexiteers hate a contrary argument, as if the relative tiny Brexit vote majority represents the entire countries opinion. Nobody else in their view is entitled to criticize it and we should all shut up and go away.
Well I have news for all of them. Democracy is not just about the majority, it’s about the minority as well.
The EU was born out of the defeat of fascism, nationalism and totalitarianism. It was a political concept a solution, designed to prevent future conflicts and war between European nations. It succeeded in that aim.
The petits nationalistes populaires of Messrs Le Pen and Farage seek to turn back the clock and triumph the individual nation state. That appeals to a section of the population who feel threatened by the refugee crisis and immigration of Muslims. Nationalism means war said François Mitterrand and he knew a thing or two about that subject.
Brexit is a retrograde step back to the power of the individual nation state. If the EU states follow that concept a resurgent Germany on the doorstep with a far right government in power may be the future consequence.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Yes one man's moan is another’s critical opposition. Strange is it not these Brexiteers hate a contrary argument, as if the relative tiny Brexit vote majority represents the entire countries opinion.
Nobody else in their view is entitled to criticize it and we should all shut up and go away.
Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black then I don't know what is.
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Mickey SAYS
Brexit is a retrograde step back to the power of the individual nation state. If the EU states follow that concept a resurgent Germany on the doorstep with a far right government in power may be the future consequence.
I get it now MICKEY your worried about FRANCE not the UK don't worry if the Fourth REICH invade you again we will come and save you even though you did not apreciate us doing so LAST TIME
Its funny how SELFISH PEOPLE really try and hide behind an obscure view or argument
You have been OUTED just fight your own battles and let the UK fight its
Love Hugh xx
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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It's all this mystic meg malarky that get's my goat, none of us know the eventual Brexit scenario, so why do the defeated inners purport to have their own portal into the future. My guess is that the immediate post Article 50 days will be a trite feisty, but nothing worth having ever comes without it's difficulties.
So bring on Article 50 and bring to an end the prognostication.
_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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With regard to criticism, both sides are culpable in terms of the campaigning if the truth be known ( and that includes the Govt's disgraceful and purposeful refusal and obstructive approach to review contingency planning in the event of Brexit ) , but the most culpable IMHO are the EU bureaucrats that have left division and turmoil in their wake, their failure to LISTEN to their citizens concerns from ALL member states, their failure to respond and recognise the fallout from their intransigence to reform and adequately forward plan or comprehend the uncomfortable realities that have arisen from their freedom of movement aspirations that have so negatively impacted all too many member states.
Having said all of that it's now important to focus on what is best for the UK and the EU, but that requires patience, realism and a willingness to work towards mutual goals.
Time will tell if we have the leaders and negotiators on all sides capable of achieving a positive and constructive way forward , but in that process it's essential for us all to stop this divisive nonsense and look for mutual solutions.
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No. ads. I want you to show me the money. That is what Brexit promised me so stand and deliver and stop making excuses.
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Sounds as though you don't want to find mutual solutions or face the uncomfortable realities Perrypower!
Each to their own I suppose.
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I want you to show me the money. That is what Brexit promised me
Brexit was about being in or out of the EU. Nothing more nothing less.
The consequences of Brexit are a return to democracy and freedom from a corrupt monolith.
The economic effects were hyped up by both sides and are guesses or estimates not promises.
What is clear however is that 'in' we are tied to a protectionist monolith and are caused to sink or swim by the edicts of unelected beaurocrats and 'out' we depend on our own efforts and the ability of our democratically elected representitives.
Brexiteers voted for freedom.
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