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It is the unknowing that is spooking the market and me. I know the upside and downside of being in the EU but don't know what the proposed 'Brexit' is offering.
My questions remain unanswered. What. When. How much.
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And still no further details from the Government of how greater reform of the EU could be accommodated given the status quo, or for that matter any open discussion of areas in need of further reform ?
Or if treaty change is necessary to accommodate reform, or any clarity to the processes involved in such an undertaking, or how long that would take to effect?
Or open discussion re what plans are currently on the table relating to further expansion of the EU and the implications on EU citizens?
Or plans to better protect citizen's property rights and provide adequate regulation of the Banks and make them fully accountable for malpractice or failure to make adequate provision to ensure "bailouts" are no longer a risk to be met by innocent citizens as a priority above obscene bonus structures. Etc etc.
Also does the wording "or if the UK was not able to accept the deal that was offered, exit would take place.. " leave one to conclude that further negotiations are open for discussion?
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16 Outs 15 Ins if we do leave the EU then I will return home to the UK it looks very bad for EX pats
The loss of ex-pats’ right to freedom of movement within the EU. If we are not in the EU, we have no automatic right to remain in any EU country. Under the Schengen agreement, we will then be limited to stays of 90 days out of 180 unless a permanent residency card is issued by the State of residence, with provision of proof of sufficient income for support and health insurance.
We may be required to have a visa/work-visa to visit/work in mainland Europe.
Visas can be subject to quotas. This change of status could happen overnight. The Quota Number each year could be reduced.
The European Health Insurance Card would probably no longer be valid - for UK visitors as well!.
Health provision under E120 (or S1) rules, could be withdrawn.
Our British state pensions could be frozen, as they are already in many other non-EU countries, such as Australia Canada, South Africa, etc.
We would probably lose entitlement to our Disability payments.
Goodbye Espana it was good knowing you
Love Hugh xx
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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Whats the worry?
The way the crooks run the government even if the whole of the UK voted out we would still be in, and if it don't go how they want it to, another vote will fix it correctly.
They might be the conservatives, but they had a good mentor to learn from....Blair.
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Brits came to Spain when neither country was in the EU/EEC they came when we were in and Spain was not. They seemed to get on OK.
Not a lot will happen in the short term. In the long term each group has to make it's case. No government would want lots of dissafected citizens returning.
However your consideration should be for the good of your country (and perhaps your relatives, children & grandchildren).
This message was last edited by tteedd on 07/03/2016.
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The ballance of trade between the UK and the EU is heavily in the EU's favour.
I would be very surprised if anyone could make a case for one part of the UK (Scotland) to be any different.
One things for sure however it is a very odd stance to want to break up a 300 year successful democratic union but want to keep an undemocratic short term one with the corrupt EU.
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Yes, tteedd, there were Brits in Spain before we joined the EU. About 3,000 of them according to Wiki. Mainly, I would suggest, the rich or cons on the run (Costa del Crime and all that). Now that there about 800,000 (again depends on what paper you read, 300,000 according to the Telegraph or a million if you believe the Guardian) and no longer the rich and cons on the run. And trade from the EU? Why, would that disappear if we pulled out of the EU? Would it mean we would no longer want the BMWs, the Greek olives, the Spanish olive oil? Would we suddenly find a differenct source for our tomatoes? But our dependency on the EU for our goods is some 44% of the total, the EU dependency on us for sending the good is about 10% of their output. Who needs who?
And hugh, sorry but that is scaremongering on a grand scale. Non-EU citizens living in Spain get full rights after being here 5 years. EU citizens have acquired rights under treaties which can't be taken away even if a treaty no longer applies. And what's the difference about proving proof of income and medical cover and the current system where the same thing applies? Why would the EHIC no longer be valid as it works for all EEA countries which UK would still be a member of? Why would pensions be frozen? UK has many bilateral agreements on pensions with non-EU countries as it is, why not continue? If the countries you mention don't upgrade their pensioners living in UK why should UK upgrade our pensioners living in their country? That would mean us looking after those countries pensioners as well as our own. We upgrade the pensions of Brits living in the USA because the USA upgrades the pensions of Americans living in the UK.
I think, in a couple of posts, we have had the in and the out brigades proving no-one knows what will happen.
Keep calm, don't panic. And stop saying you know what will happen because it's pretty obvious you don't.
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Hi Mariedav
Of all the comments on nthis forum I find myself most aligned to yours at the moment, however I cannot agree with the way you have chosen to portray Eu dependancies vs UK dependancies in terms of percentages rather than monetary value.
Your comment below:
But our dependency on the EU for our goods is some 44% of the total, the EU dependency on us for sending the good is about 10% of their output. Who needs who?
Our dependancy on 27 countries is 44%, whereas 27 countries have a 10% depandancy on us. Hopefully you can see my point that the percentage you portray is not on a 'like fo like basis'.
It probably just goes to prove that we can 'spin the tale' to the best of our advantage as is the case with most the 'facts and figures on this forum.
Normally you seem to take the middle ground rather than some who have already made their mind up.
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The rights currently enjoyed by UK expats in Spain and elsewhere in the EU will only remain if the British honour every other EU member states rights. That means continued free movement, access to job markets, free healthcare and right of residence. Many of which the British believe will cease if they vote to leave the EU.
If any of these rights are removed after Brexit by the UK then a quid pro quo would happen in every member state to which it applies. Acquired rights would only valid for existing UK expats who are currently registered as fiscal residents in their EU country of choice.
It occurred to me whilst reading some financial data that many UK businesses are attracted to Brexit because of the certain devaluation of Sterling. The prospect of 20% devaluation against the Euro which may last at least five years is very appealing. It will also be inflationary which will help UK asset values and virtually guarantee interest rate increases.
..
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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If we believe what we are told, all political parties with the obvious exception of UKIP have a very strong leaning towards remaining within the EU. Perhaps Cameron placing the promise of a referendum on our EU membership in the tory election manifesto swung the balance and gave them their overall majority of 12 seats. If the vote goes against our continued membership, what the hell? Cameron rides off into the sunset at the end of this parliament, Boris wins the leadership vote and Labour get stuffed in the general election, but as will probably be the case, Cameron's gamble will most likely pay off by a short head.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Hep I would suggest this speaks volumes of which way we should vote - mind you we do seem to love the minorites
all political parties with the obvious exception of UKIP have a very strong leaning towards remaining within the EU.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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I thought it was the electorate that were deciding, not political parties and we all know how disaffected the electorate are with politicians!
I suspect there are many more undecided voters who are desperate for more information not least about how reform of the EU can ever be accommodated and how expansion of the EU will affect their lives. There are vulnerabilities to both sides of the equation which need to be equally realistically addressed before an educated decision can be made.
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ads, how can you totally disassociate the referendum from political parties when one called it, will set the rules of it and declare it's result? They have access to the media, in many instances they control the media, are you stating that no one is listening to them?
If so you are very mistaken.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Many sadly do not believe what they are told and are seeking out independent sources. Strangely enough the campaign organisation 38 degrees are currently looking into this...
P.S. no observations/ comment on reform?
This message was last edited by ads on 08/03/2016.
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The electoral commission set the rules (and the question) and will announce the results, not a political party.
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Everything is run by politics, no matter how it is packaged, nothing is totally indipendent, does anyone think that the Governer of the Bank of England actually sets the bank rate without prior discussion with the Chancelor of the Exchequer?
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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This referendum will be decided by the ‘don't knows’ or the ‘don't cares’ who will not vote thereby allowing the committed to win the day.
In the media I see more commitment from the 'leave' brigade than the 'stay' faction. That's the nature of referendums and why they should not in my opinion be used in a parliamentary democracy.
I like hephs point that the Conservative Party won the last election because of the manifesto commitment to hold the referendum. I think there is some truth that they destroyed UKIP by doing that. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. The Tories may never be the same party again.
Scotland may be the key to win the day for the ‘stays’. There is little doubt they will want independence if the vote is to leave. I may move there in that event, except for the winters.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Well Micky, I don't think that either the Conservatives or Labour will come out of this unscathed. I like your point about referendums, we might just as well have one on any contentious issue, you can just imagine them saying "well it wasn't our fault". 
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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I read somewhere recently that if you held a referendum on should the country destroy all new born baby boys a good number would vote yes.
Referendums are power without responsibility. Parliament is the place for political decisions. Britain is stuck with this because of the need to be rid once and for all of, to quote John Major "the bastards.".
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Yes, tteedd, there were Brits in Spain before we joined the EU. About 3,000 of them according to Wiki. Mainly, I would suggest, the rich or cons on the run (Costa del Crime and all that). Now that there about 800,000 (again depends on what paper you read, 300,000 according to the Telegraph or a million if you believe the Guardian) and no longer the rich and cons on the run. And trade from the EU? Why, would that disappear if we pulled out of the EU? Would it mean we would no longer want the BMWs, the Greek olives, the Spanish olive oil? Would we suddenly find a differenct source for our tomatoes? But our dependency on the EU for our goods is some 44% of the total, the EU dependency on us for sending the good is about 10% of their output. Who needs who?
Hmm
I'm pretty certain that there were a lot more than 3000, but how many of them were officially resident is a moot point. I do not think there was much pressure to become resident, the Franco regime was happy to get their foreign currency. The ones I knew off were certainly not rich or cons. They just thought the weather better and the property much much cheaper than France or the West Country.
Now tomatoes. I lived on the south coast as a boy. There were greenhouses growing tomatoes as far as the eye could see. The growers first of all lost the early crop due to toms flown in from the Channel Islands then lost the main crop to Spain. The acres of greenhouses became bungalows. I used to play golf with a Spanish tomato millionaire who exported mainly to Tesco and Sainsbury in the UK. He was most happy that the EU prevented import from elswhere. Morroco would be more than happy to provide us with tomatoes at a fraction of the cost of the spanish ones. I should imagine tht the same is true of olives not that we use an awful lot.
Yes we would want BMW's which is why the EU could not afford to play silly buggers with our imports to them. If we taxed EU cars in retaliation and removed import duty from the rest of the world we would have plenty of cheap good quality cars. But then we make a few in the UK again now.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 08/03/2016.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 08/03/2016.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 08/03/2016.
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