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10 Dec 2016 12:29 PM by ads . 4134 posts Send private message Sad to witness such little attention is paid to the existing EU system by those who voted remain, (only UK failings and need for UK reform identified to date), with honest appraisals of EU policy and methodology that have played their part in this sorry scenario, with civilised debate ( please) and a willingness to identify more effective EU mechanisms and workable strategies to correct the failings relating to freedom of movement that have led to such distrust and frustration, from which all citizens can benefit as we approach negotiations. Freedom of movement does not preclude review and mechanisms to address problem areas that are currently leading to citizen unrest does it? Surely there are fair FLEXIBILE checks and balances that can be employed to better deal with swift mass exodus and input of citizens taking realistic account of the differentials and different benefit structures between member states? As has been stated on many occasions one size does not fit all and it appears this failure and apparent unwillingness by the EU to review and respond to the realities and real differentials etc from a far wider perspective that appears the current stumbling block. This message was last edited by ads on 10/12/2016. This message was last edited by ads on 10/12/2016. This message was last edited by ads on 10/12/2016. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 1:08 PM by Mickyfinn in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message Ads. I'm curious to understand why EU reform is a concern for you now the UK is leaving the Union. Maybe your concerns should be addressed to your national government. I have supported in a small way much needed reform of France and its institutions. I was also active in local politics in Spain for while campaigning against institutional corruption. During both of these periods our campaigning groups constantly came up against vested interest groups who had every motivation and determination to retain the status quo. It’s an exhausting business. The same perhaps is true of every organization the EU being but just one; albeit a very large one. I agree reforming the EU is a herculean task. Most people involved in it would acknowledge that. To bring about change national governments must build a political consensus and carry through reform with that political will and power. Individuals or small pressure groups have not a cat in hells chance. I even also acknowledge the UK may in the long run benefit from Brexit in pure reform terms. However that is a very high price to pay indeed. _______________________ Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 1:23 PM by baz1946 . 2327 posts Send private message In compiling this yearly list, the magazine considers factors such as upfront pay, profit participation, residuals, endorsements and advertising work. The British politician has an estimated net worth of $215 million. He owes his fortune to smart stock investments, substantial property holdings, lucrative endorsement deals with CoverGirl cosmetics. He also owns several restaurants (the “Fat Farage Burger” chain) in London, a Football Team (the “Herne Angels”), has launched his own brand of Vodka (Pure Wonderfarage - UK), and is tackling the juniors market with a top-selling perfume (With Love from Nigel) and a fashion line called “Nigel Farage Seduction”. Shame we can't all be failed politicians....Perrypower1 said. Meanwhile your still on here....With me. 2 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 3:19 PM by Tadd1966 in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message tteed We have no reason to be ashamed of our past. In nearly all cases we proved more liberal than others when in ascendancy. Really??? We (the Noyal Navy) stopped the slave trade. We did not have to stop slavery because slavery was never legal in the UK. We the UK (inclduing teh rotal navy - kings shilling / press ganging etc plus a lot more) promote slavery across the world you might want to look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_British_Isles Occasionally other nations were ahead of us in liberalisation but not often (NZ was first with emancipation of women). But in nearly all the other things you mention we were ahead of the world. We helped spread democracy and the rule of law. Really we forced the UK’s version of democracy on many and destroyed many traditions during the history of teh UK because the UK though they were barbaric (North America, Australia, India to name a few) – who said the UK are right We allowed (qualified) religious freedom early. The UK forced Christianity (and Catholicism) on many, called local religions barbaric heathens and tortured them if they did not obey. The UK even tortured their own if they disagreed with the church etc etc words still used today by quite a few We stopped dictatorships and absolute rulers in Europe many times. The UK did really all by themselves – yes the UK declared war and invaded many countries for what? The UK have been dictators and absolute rulers themselves and still think they are elite take a look back at the Empire the crusades invasion of Iraq, Germany, France, Spain, Americas, Australia etc etc etc It is precisely this history that make us see the deficiencies of the EU. Really what ???those without sin cast the first stone and what have the UK done recently for europe or teh world and why are they leaving if they are so important to keeping europe safe etc. - hypocrisy here me thinks Yes we can and should be proud of our past. I see very little in the histoyr of the UK to be proud of internally or abroad - it is all self proclamation Briando Every nation on Earth has a dark past and a good past, our island nation of the UK stands high in lots of areas. Still struggling to see UK standing high in any areas and certainly no better than any other nation you are thinking of. The dark past of the UK is far worse than many freedom, invention and industrial development, emancipation, abolition of slavery, public health, votes for everyone, democratic parliament, law and order. The list goes on and on. Freedom – really the UK were world leaders in the slavery trade and at invading countries – how long did it take to get votes for everyone women only got a vote in 1918 for women aged over 30!!!!!! Not until 1928 for women to get the vote at 21 the same as men. Public health also too them a long time 1946 for the NHS I could go on and on Democratic parliament – House of lords democratic NO. It also took centuries to get equality for all _______________________ “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge” 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 3:46 PM by briando55 in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message Hi Tadd As I said I think your history books have a lot of pages missing, get a refund on them. I think world leaders in invasions were old Gengis Khan, Otterman Empire, The Romans (what did they ever do for us), Norman Conquest, Spanish in Soth America, Portugese, French. Man o man invasion was perfected before we started. Slave trade was our good freinds the Dutch and also the Spanish. The African tribe leaders were perfectly happy to sell their people without much of a resistance. I think you will find if you look that we were leaders in abo;ition of slave trading, long before the USA etc. Public health acts go back into history also, London building act 1667 to address timber frame housing catching fire (again!), sanitation acts involving all houses to have clean water and adequate sanitation (1870's to 1912 ish) NHS is a mere baby compared to those important steps forward. Upgrade your history books a bit and open the viewpoint. I said we had a dark history, we also have a good one _______________________ Best wishes, Brian 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 4:31 PM by Tadd1966 in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message braindo We will once agin have to agree to disagree the British started many episodes of the slave trade and if you read the link I provide you wil see a lot more. Selling does not make slavery good and although the sellesr were wrong they met the demands of the British slave trade The Uk were big time slave trades long before the USA was invaded and conquered - which was heavily led by teh UK and in teh good name of King and countyr (greed and self importnce are other factors) The UK has been invading countries and destroyng people for many hundreds of years forcingthen to adopt UK tradiotns, relgions and langaueg etc - woudl you claim the crusades were a great succes and triumph Yes other nations liek the Dutch, Spanish, Roamsn etc havea bad history but I don't hear them going on and on about it and glorifying it like the Brits do or proclaiming how great they were / are If the Brits were world leaders in the abolition of slavery as an example how come the UK supported apartheid up to a few decades ago. what did the great UK do about that - nothing for many many years despite efforts the UK woudl NOT support sanctions on SA imposed by many other countries . Many of the UK nobility supported right wing leaders across the globe and many still do so many examples in history and many are proud of it - not me public health acts etc are not the preserve of the UK or invented by teh UK these thing happened across many countries and for centuries - google history of sanitation Some might argue that during the roman invasions they gave the UK (and others) a lot in the way of "civilsation" but do you hear the romans braghging about it other than hollywood and history books glorifying the roman empire- did the UK peopel of the day really appreciate the invavsion or resent it Same could be said of all the countreis the UK have invaded Did Scotland appreciate the invasion by the english do they still resent the english, the irish stiill hate the english (read up the famine and the persecutuon of the Irish people etc.) I coudl go on and on and on - teh history of the UK is full of violent acts and supression even to its own peopel) nothing to be proud of or glorify at all _______________________ “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge” 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 5:45 PM by hugh_man in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message Mickey... Individuals or small pressure groups have not a cat in hells chance. I even also acknowledge the UK may in the long run benefit from Brexit in pure reform terms. However that is a very high price to pay indeed. ....... You are quite right, individuals and small groups alone will make no difference BUT when they start getting together in numbers and vote for UKIP in UK, Podemos and Cuidedamos in Spain. FN in France, and what are termed as right wing populist groups in Germany, Italy and Netherlands, it does start to make a difference. Small acorns make large oak trees and perhaps we are seeing the seeds that will bring about the reform that is needed when voters are actually listened to and governments respond, sadly lacking for some time. Why do you assume it will be at a high price and have such little regard for the UKs ability to trade with others, the City to continue to attract numerous financial companies, not just banks and the entrepreneurial effort of the British and its small companies not to continue and flourish. 2 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 5:52 PM by hugh_man in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message The UK forced Christianity (and Catholicism) on many, called local religions barbaric heathens and tortured them if they did not obey. The UK even tortured their own if they disagreed with the church etc etc words still used today by quite a few.... I think you will find that was the Spanish in most cases. Spanish Inquisition, no one expected that. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 6:25 PM by Mickyfinn in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message I sometimes think people just get bored with the political status quo and want change for changes sake. If you study historical political revolutions, violent or peaceful little fundamentally changed. Brexit and popularisbm will be no different. Yes the UK may survive on its own after Brexit. It will not be easy in a globalised economy. Will ordinary people feel any benefit? I suggest not. Their lives will be the same now as they will be in the future, maybe a little poorer but not I fear any richer either in financial or cultural terms. Relations with European nations will wither on the vine and Britain sadly will become a much more isolated and inward looking nation. _______________________ Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 6:36 PM by tteedd in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message Tad Your ranting prooves nothing. Even your reference only backs up what I said (reading it before posting might have been a good idea). The last legal 'slaves' in the UK were called serfs in the middle ages. You have a sad view of the world. The state religion was the Church of England (or Scotland) after the reformation. A Bulwark agains Roman fundamentalism so your comments about catholicism are rubbish. No UK government ever supported aparthied. The rest is waffle. You cannot possibly go back more than 400 years and judge peoples actions by modern standards (even if you get it right which you do not). But if you judge by the standards of the day we were more often civilised and compasionate in comparison with others.. This message was last edited by tteedd on 10/12/2016. 2 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 6:48 PM by eos_moderators in España. 173 posts Send private message Let's try and keep things on topic and relevant please.... _______________________ EOS Moderators > See our Forum Rules \| Privacy Policy \| Terms of Use 3 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 8:51 PM by ads . 4134 posts Send private message There are obviously some deep seated emotions and perceptions that have recently been expressed in this thread, but for us all to move forward and gain mutually beneficial outcomes, perhaps it's important to accept that progress and reform since those dark days has been made, and that the UK, ironically, is perceived by many EU nations as a continuing positive influence for reform, with emphasis on the rule of law. For example. In terms of individuals ability to address significant problems that have arisen since citizens purchased property across member states, I have to take heart from British and Spanish commitment to overcome what appeared as an almost impossible task with regard to Banks negligences. And I hasten to add sadly, with all too little assistance from the EU. BUT, having said that, it goes to prove how progress can only be made when trust and respect is nurtured and developed between people from differing member states. People that are willing to demonstrate courage and belief, people willing to be patient ( but firm) and comprehend the need for POSITIVITY and a deep seated belief in their ability to make progress. Never say never! Here's hoping that similar progress can be made to achieve mutually beneficial outcomes following the Brexit vote. But IMHO It will take citizens greater proactivity to make this happen. 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 8:52 PM by potblack in Alicante & Singapore. 233 posts Send private message ''Britain sadly will become a much more isolated'' But isn’t that exactly what the out voters wanted and voted for?. _______________________ NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER: A mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 9:06 PM by hugh_man in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message More Brexit bad news. "Japan's Softbank chooses London to base its £80bn high-tech investment fund." Andrew Neil 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 9:08 PM by ads . 4134 posts Send private message No, potblack. They wanted their voices and genuine concerns to be heeded and not dismissed by intransigence and denial. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 9:10 PM by hugh_man in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message Mickey Please give the 17mill a little more credit than saying they were bored with the status quo. Sounds rather pompous. 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 9:39 PM by briando55 in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message Tadd. To be honest I don't need any more discussion. I do know the internet has all the truths of the world and all the lies of the world all wrapped up for people to pick and choose. I don't follow links, sorry, don't trust them much. I do know what I said is accurate, I will leave that as my full stop on our own discussion. Thanks for taking part though. _______________________ Best wishes, Brian 1 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
10 Dec 2016 10:37 PM by Tadd1966 in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message Briando Good debate differing views but good no harm a bit off thread so apologies to all _______________________ “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge” 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
11 Dec 2016 8:21 AM by Mickyfinn in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message Please give the 17mill a little more credit than saying they were bored with the status quo. I think you know that I was generalising in my post but I do believe many people seek change for changes sake. Whenever a major politician campaigns on a 'change' platform they usually get elected. People want change because they believe any change will better their lives. Brexit offered just that change. I don't believe the issues were that important to the voters. _______________________ Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz. 0 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know
11 Dec 2016 11:11 AM by hugh_man in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message Au contraire Micky, I believe the issues were very important to a large number of voters, because for a change, each individual vote actually counted. Their voices would actually be important for a change. Why else would 30 odd million turn out, a record for any election or referendum. A generalisation for 17 mill still seems very unfair and does neither you nor them any credit. Of course electors vote for change IF status quo is not right for them, that is why few government's ever last for more than 2 terms if they don't listen to the electorate. That is how democracy works and electors have a chance to have their say. 2 Like Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

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