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Micky
It’s very easy to sneer at politicians.
Not too sure but last time I checked Boris Johnson was a MP, better check through some of your earlier replies I suggest!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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BigAl,
Micky is a bit late with his Melton Mowbray Pork Pies, Jim Hacker beat him by a few decades in respect of his battle with the EuroSausage. 
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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ads wrote:
To turn one's back on uncomfortable realities relating to the EU and thereby not recognise their unwillingness to radically reform is not just the preseve of the "right" Mickeyfinn.
I dont believe the EU is unwilling to reform. There are great pressures within the community to do just that. I expect reform to be on top of the agenda after the UK votes to remain.
Remember the UK has been in the forefront of pressure to reform the EU. The country has gained many opt-outs unthinkable when they joined. I expect other countries will follow suit and demand changes.
Reforming the club is always more preferable to leaving. Leaving brings enormous regret and loss.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky wrote:
I dont believe the EU is unwilling to reform. There are great pressures within the community to do just that. I expect reform to be on top of the agenda after the UK votes to remain.
So after we vote to remain the reform may begin, sounds a bit like give me your money first before I build your beautiful Spanish villla, what could possibly go wrong?
Remember the UK has been in the forefront of pressure to reform the EU. The country has gained many opt-outs unthinkable when they joined. I expect other countries will follow suit and demand changes.
And just what reform have we made so far?, An opt-out is not reform it just means we don't like what's going on and don't want to be part of it, just don't have the kahoonas to to say this is not for us we will go our own way and do something else.
Reforming the club is always more preferable to leaving. Leaving brings enormous regret and loss.
How do we know this brings about 'enormous regret and loss'?, it hasn't happened before so no history to prove this?
This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 06/06/2016.
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I dont believe the EU is unwilling to reform.
The EU is unable to reform.
Apart from the fact that it would take the constituent governments to have the desire to and push through any reforms, there is no desire amongst the highly paid Euro elite to reform.
Most politicians in national governments have no incentive to reform the EU as they hope for one of the EU sinecures when they get kicked out by their own electorate.
Here's a dream for you:
Nigel Farage and a group of like minded Euro MP's arrest the three European presidents, try them for crimes against the citizens on Europe, cut off their heads in the Grand Platz, and declare the EU parliament the soverign voice of the Europen peoples.
That's about as likely a way of the EU reforming as any other.
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We've expressed this all too many times, that citizens from all political persuaions feel alienated by the EU in their failure to respect their concerns about issues that have radically altered their way of life and/ or negatively impinged upon their institutions, housing, education, health systems, legal rights, social fabric etc that have taken decades to establish.
But I suspect there is also a genuine desire to regain a fairer balance of power such that financial advantage is never so disproportionately spread as to cause major civil unrest or threaten the tolerant fabric of the nation, nor disproportionately undermine provision for those disadvantaged or those in genuine need.
Sadly the EUs strategy, swift expansion, abuse of resources, lack of moral authority, failure to retain a balance away from the lobbying of powerful financial elites ( whether this be financial institutions or powerful corporations) coupled with a complete lack of comprehension re the effects on our nation ( and others for that matter) has led to a toxic mix of distrust and anger.
The EU, whether by ignorance or rigid ideology have failed miserably to recognise people's genuine concerns and have further alienated many by their unwillingness to even recognise their failures.
So when every attempt to address the need for reform has been met with contempt and dismission is it any wonder people want out?
What makes you think that this EU referendum will alter this now when the powers that be have had every opportunity to issue a statement of intent to reform?
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Well put,as usual, and that is my argument for voting out!
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We've expressed this all too many times, that citizens from all political persuasions feel alienated by the EU in their failure to respect their concerns about issues that have radically altered their way of life and/ or negatively impinged upon their institutions, housing, education, health systems, legal rights, social fabric etc that have taken decades to establish.
Any difference for UK citizens from all political persuasions who are aliened by a UK govt (in or out, past, present or future) in their failure to respect their concerns etc.
I think NOT
In fact I would go further to say that most govts (EU or not) have the same alienating impact on their citizens
This is not really a EU issue / problem and one I could never base my vote on
Will an exit make the UK any different I think NOT,
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Just so you know, I've made an absolute pile of money so far on this referendum. As I said in my first post on this thread, volatilty would spike and it has. I bought options vol at 10%...it is now 22.5% bid. If we vote out I will make so much money I will be able to afford all the trouble that is going to come down the line. If we vote to remain I will still make a ton of money on the volatility trade, but will have no need to exercise my options as the currency will soar like an eagle.
It is great that the leavers keep shouting so loud...it is making me rich, rich, RICH. Woohoo
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** EDITED - Against forum rules **
This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 6/7/2016 12:30:00 PM.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Ads seems to believe in some kind of super power on earth instead of democratic institutions that are accountable to everyone. Really the aims she expressed are unreal.
The EU is doing it's level best to satisfy everyone. It's an imperfect political union not a shining city on a hill
Please give me an example from history when any political or economic government, organisation call it what you like came anywhere to the aspirations you seem to expect.
I suggest you come down from your ivory tower ads and join the masses grubbing on the earth.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 06/06/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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It's an imperfect political union not a shining city on a hill
Wow Micky, You are beginning to open your eyes.
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it would be soooo cool
Rhinoceros would be cooler
Rhino = money
soreass = piles
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democratic institutions
That's what we want!
This message was last edited by tteedd on 06/06/2016.
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It’s very easy to sneer at politicians.
Not too sure but last time I checked Boris Johnson was a MP
And Michael Gove.
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Mickeyfinn, you surely don't believe that the EU as it stands is a democratic institution accountable to everyone? Even the in campaigners would struggle with that comment! Perhaps you should review the Brexit video to see just how much of an ivory tower the EU parliamentarians are inhabiting.... http://www.brexitthemovie.com
We'll have to agree to disagree on that I'm afraid.
This message was last edited by ads on 06/06/2016.
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Winstone Churchill once said "Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time."
What he meant was democracy is not perfect. The EU is not perfect and no system of government created so far is.
However it's better than any other alternatives and the EU is better to belong to than not. Britains standing in the world will be diminished by Brexit and I think that matters not just to Britain but the rest of Europe.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Carry on Mick you and the Conservative goverment are doing wonders further convincing the people of the UK to leave the EU
Overseas territory's governing what we Brits can say and do
I left your so called EU a month a go and glad I did our exit will spur our great nation on a nation Sir WC would be again proud of
Love Hugh
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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The FTSE100 is circa 10% off it's all time high, stock market surges are normally the result of buying confidence, I just wonder what is causing this. 
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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I left your so called EU a month a go and glad I did our exit will spur our great nation on a nation Sir WC would be again proud of
Winston S. Churchill was an early advocate of a European Union. He almost achieved a union with France during WW11 but the German invasion prevented it.
He later campaigned for a union after the war and believed wholeheartedly that it was the only way forward to prevent future wars and produce economic prosperity.
If he were alive today he would certainly be in the remain camp. Contrary to popular myth Churchill was not on the right of politics. He was originally a Liberal and a member of that parliamentary party until he crossed the floor of the house.
He did believe passionately in the British Empire and that often clouded his judgment. Like most imperialists he could not deal with the tide of inevitable change.
I also think that the imperialism the British have always felt is behind much of the anti EU sentiments. The belief that Britain can stand alone and not be part of something greater which they don't totally control is an anathema.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Agreed. Although the EU we have today is probably not what Churchill envisaged. None the less despite all of it's problems the EU does broadly reflect, represent and defend the Western european social model of which the UK is very much a central plank with it's extensive benefit/something for nothing culture. it's all very well bleating about democracy etc etc and going it alone and I can recall the last time the UK paddled it's own canoe - right up sh*t creek in the late 60's. True, at the moment ( due to recession in various parts of the world) the UK has the 5th biggest economy but only ahead of France by tiny percentage point and as we know, France is, apparently , a total basket case. The fact is, in the 21st century the main players in world trade markets are fundamentally unstable/undemocratic/ vicious/corrupt (perm any 3 from 4). Unless the UK is prepared to follow a different economic model and slash public spending/liberalise labour markets a la Patrick Minford, there really, really is safety in numbers......
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Scollins
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I think that's a great point scollins. The western democratic social model will not change with Brexit. If that was on offer in this referendum the vote would be a massive no thanks. No separation of social welfare benefits and the states willingness to provide. A condition of EU membership is the social model within a nation’s ability to provide it.
So in theory at least after Brexit the welfare state under the control of the political right could make moves to reduce it. IDS has already said he wants to see insurance based funding for the NHS. I expect the political right to take over the parliamentary conservative party after Brexit. The political instability will be profound, civil war will take place in the party and it could result in permanent schism.
However the politicians know if they campaigned to change the social model they would lose. It's significant I have not heard anything from either side on how the nation plans to change anything after Brexit.
Undoubtedly after Brexit there will be massive political and social change not least because the nation will be restricted by the international markets on borrowing costs. The economy may not recover from the shock for some time.
I expect the markets to punish not only Sterling but Gilts and most everything else. The USA is showing signs of slowing, there is the Trump factor and little growth in Europe. Recession is probably a certainty. But hey if Brexit is what the people want then the people will have to live with it.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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