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Mickeyfinn, yes by and large i think your observations are pretty accurate regarding the UK. Yes we are inward looking, but we are not so limited in scope. The UK historically has many achievements and noted scholars in our past, and no doubt there will be more. The things you can trace in the UK are the very things that migrants to the UK find admirable and so do the illegals, which is why there are so many potential illegal immigrants making an attempt at entry.It is the very same things that they know worldwide, and so desire to come to the "land of milk and honey".
By the same measure the ocean surrounding us also makes us insular and so largely until recent times has protected our heritage from interaction with mainland europe. Therefore the UK tends to have a go it alone attitude from geographical as well as political influences. Due to this we have tended to be apart from European troubles that other countries endure, and due to our tendency to react with militery force when threatened, we have entered european disputes and wars only once our jurisdiction is openly threatened. There are many examples, the Spanish Armada, the French with Napolean, the Germanswith TWO world wars, just to name a few. The only two recent exceptions were Iraq and Afghanistan, and i feel that Tony Blair should be sent to the Hague as a war criminal for those.
I have the feeling that this insular attitude, and sucess over many centuries keeping out invaders has given the average resident of the UK a false fairy land impression of their homeland, just as it does to the illegal immigrant, and so the Little England resident who knows no better has voted to exit, which has raised the vote to leave high enough to be the result of the referendum. Look at the result, 52% against 48% it was that close, the only reason the vote ended that way was because of a few that know no better, and due to their insular beliefs voted down the EU.
This message was last edited by robertt8696 on 05/03/2017.
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Do you not even consider that other people's desire for the EU to reform and become more accountable, less dictatorial, pay heed to citizens genuine concerns, and move away from a federalist intransigent idealistic approach has played a major part in the growing disaffection across Europe with the current EU structure, Mickeyfinn?
Why has it taken Brexit to gain any review of the current system and review alternative options for Europe going forward?
Why have the bureaucrats turned blind eyes to the incredible hardship poured upon Greek citizens and the financial unrealistic straightjacket of loans that have worsened their plight and left generations to pick up the pieces,?
Why have the bureaucrats failed to recognise their mismanagement of freedom of movement policy, showing scant regard to address the need for growth policies and greater transitional controls and failure to recognise the consequences that led to enforced large scale swift movements of people to move away from their homelands and families, in desperate search of work on the one hand ( southern states), or desire for better living standards and benefits on the other, ( eastern states), but in that process further mismanage by failing to address and make contingency for such irregular patterns of migration, ( by reviewing and adapting fair effective transitional arrangements).
But even worse, why did the ideological bureaucrats not recognise and respond to the proliferation of unrest and disharmony that was growing as a direct consequence of their failings to forward plan and retain a more flexible approach?
To demonstrate sufficient concern for these growing citizen concerns and many other failings and strive for solutions is not an indication of isolationist ideology on the part of the UK, Mickeyfinn, or selfish mantra, it is just the opposite...It demonstrates a deep desire to respond to these failings but with a more caring and timely transitional approach so as not to proliferate poverty and magnify unrest (national ongoing reforms as we speak), but to respond and challenge intransigent denial of uncomfortable truths on the part of the EU bureaucrats, to gain greater accountability from those in power, but most importantly to address failed policies that have led to an unforgiveable potential for breakdown of cohesion across Europe ( hence the rise of extreme elements).
But now going forward, if the EU bureaucrats wish to further exacerbate the problems by refusing to seek mutually beneficial outcomes with a country that has courageously stood up to such intransigence and failures, then this would be an indication of their determination not to listen to genuine citizen concerns across Europe, but adopt a divisive approach and bully / scapegoat any country that had the decency and courage to expose the failings, and genuinely strive for well overdue reform with mutually beneficial outcomes to the benefit of all.
Here's hoping that sensible and rational thought prevails in the upcoming negotiations, but one thing appears clear is that it won't be for the want of trying on the UK's part.
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Thoughtful post Roberto and a view which I share.
I would add that the British have a tendency to want to dominate political life rather than take part as an equal partner in the project. Maybe it's their imperial history still deeply ingrained among many older Britons and believing that imaginary status being weakened by migration and changing values. Every generation struggles a bit to come to terms with social change but seeking to turn the clock back is a desparate principle.
They were right of course Brexit was a last ditch opportunity to break free and back to an uncertain past. The British I have no doubt will deal with it in their own way but the economic head winds will be substantial if no acceptable deal is made with the EU .
Ads. I don’t think reform was on the minds of the majority of they who voted to leave. Perhaps among the intelligencia that may be true. However the average ‘out’ vote came from predominantly working class regions where there is a strong belief correctly or incorrectly that services, wages and jobs were being taken by migrants. Media groups like The Daily Mail fuelled that assumption and tipped the balance. EU reform was never on the agenda there.
Your beef with the EU I accept is an honest view that the EU is un-reformable in its present state. There is an acknowledgement it’s institutions have become to unwieldy and slow to adapt to changing circumstances.
There will now be an ongoing movement for change one the UK could have played a useful part in had they not decided to leave. That’s a tragedy of sorts for both sides. It should not have taken Brexit to bring that realization into the main stream. History is littered with political mistakes it's just the way of things.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 05/03/2017.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Now I feel the British should just get on with it and leave so we Europeans can get on with our project and ensure its continuing success for many future generations.
Just be patient MICKEY we are in the DRIVING SEAT NOW all GOOD THINGS come to those that WAIT
I do hope the EXPATS do not become COLLATERAL damage but in the end I FEAR they WILL
The clocks ticking TWO YEARS is not a LONG TIME to sell your FOREIGN HOME and REBOOT your life somewhere else
ROBERT I think ARSENAL fans said the same thing about the 2001 FA CUP FINAL 
THOSE that LOST THE VOTE should embrace the decision and SUPPORT your country not keep RUNNING IT DOWN
Love Hugh xx
This message was last edited by hughjardon on 05/03/2017.
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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"There is a different outlook in Europe to that of Britain. It’s more encompassing, tolerant and compassionate toward others"
That really is a lot of Bull. You only have to look at charitable giving and national spending on aid to show that.
We also have a reasonable record of looking after the truly downtrodden from elsewhere.
I have lived in Germany, Belguim and Spain, spent time in France and the Netherlands and visited several other of the countries of Europe and nowhere is this true.
I have seen the German police rounding up 'guest workers' and French and Belgian treatment of 'others'.
Modern Spain comes close but Spain has a vicious history, which shows how different a place it can be, to live down.
No. Britain easily outshines the others in my experience and by any yardstick I can think of. Those I have not visited would have to be paragons of virtue to make it true of Europe as a whole.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 05/03/2017.
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" The clocks ticking TWO YEARS is not a LONG TIME to sell your FOREIGN HOME and REBOOT your life somewhere else "
I would guess expats in Spain will do OK. And logically Spain has no interest in loosing it's expat community.
I would even suspect that the UK will, in the end, decide to contiue to upgrade national pensions for those currently living in the EU. Not sure about those leaving for Spain after March though. If you are thinking of going or becoming resident you'd better get your skates on! By inclination I could be in this category but my other half is not so the decision is made for me.
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Mickeyfinn observed “ However the average ‘out’ vote came from predominantly working class regions where there is a strong belief correctly or incorrectly that services, wages and jobs were being taken by migrants”.
The following stats show different conclusions to your own observations I'm afraid...
Conservatives 61% voted to Leave
Labour voters (65%)
Liberal Democrats (32%) but significant minorities went for Leave.
Only UKIP, where 95% voted for Leave, and the Greens, where 80% voted for Remain, avoided significant internal divisions on the vote.
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Ads, i think you missed the point of the quote. You dont have to be labour to be working class, or even conservative to be "upper" class, i think the inference was that it was people of whatever persuasion in areas of traditional industry that voted out. On that basis it doesnt matter what political party you belong to, it has a lot to do with your environment.
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You fail to take account of all those across the country who have a conscience and cared sufficiently for those directly affected by failing EU policies (that have been debated ad infinitum on this thread), and the wider implications on a country that prided itself on integration and tolerance, for those that observed the realities of the growing pressures on their infrastructure, their health service, their educational system, their social systems, their housing, etc.
Need I go on?
These frustrations were felt across the whole country....Not just in areas of traditional industry. And all too many felt vulnerable and rightly wanted to regain control away from those " remote political elites in Europe" who were increasingly failing to respond to their concerns, almost treating citizens as pawns in their experiment, far removed from the realities that were impacting their everyday lives. Strong stuff I'm afraid but the mood of the nation appeared angry and alienated especially when the pre referendum negotiations failed to achieve any effective solutions.
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............." who were increasingly failing to respond to their concerns, almost treating citizens as pawns in their experiment, far removed from the realities that were impacting their everyday lives."
Ads, i do feel that your quote just as convincingly describes the political system in the UK, as much the EU. So we will be out, away from EU jurisdiction, but what about the miserable state of the UK Government, how is that to be fixed? Read your quote again while thinking UK instead of EU............
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To repeat, the UK is already ( thankfully) in the process of reform Robert, and the recent change in leadership reflects the shift in emphasis, but obviously time will tell in this regard.
That said this should not however detract from the fact that swift large-scale uncontrolled migration played a significant part in exacerbating the impact with regard to sensitive ONGOING UK reforms.
This message was last edited by ads on 06/03/2017.
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The coming plight of Cornwall following their vote to leave the EU may be an interesting early sign of remorse for voting leave.. Cornwall voted to leave the EU in fairly large numbers. The UK Government has decided to award £18m to prop up the county’s weak economy, with the area now set to lose £60m of annual funding from the EU.
Let’s not forget that MPs assured Cornish voters that the levels of EU funding would remain the same if it voted for Brexit – which, just like the numbers on that infamous big red bus, is now known to be another lie. EU money has been crucial to the development of the region, assisting the introduction of renewable energy and new trains. EU funding also benefited our lifeblood, the tourism industry, with money helping build the Eden Project and cleaning up the sea on our beautiful beaches.
We are now left in a perilous position where funding has been slashed in the region recognised as the poorest in the UK alongside the Welsh valleys. The reality of life in Cornwall is a far cry from the picturesque images of surf lapping at sandy beaches, and Labour councillor Tim Dwelly has recently warned that “we are about to go off a cliff". Cornwall is already ranked among the top 10 most deprived areas of Western Europe, with record numbers using food banks and 16,000 children in poverty.
The Independent 6 March
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Ads, i just dont see it, what reform? You say the change in leadership reflects a shift in emphasis, all it showed to me was David Cameron running scared, and he left before his position became untenable, just as Tony Blair did, leaving Gordon Brown a right old mess, and subsequently losing Labour the leadership. Theresa May has the same poisoned chalice.
If you think theres reform its the exit of the UK from the EU, nothing more. An event that would not have happened if David Cameron had not been so cocksure the UK population would vote to stay and allowed a referendum which subsequently resulted in a no vote........Oh dear.
This message was last edited by robertt8696 on 06/03/2017.
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Yes Mickeyfinn
Even more pressure on the ability to control the exacerbating impact from countrywide migration on the UK reform process ( benefit system, greater provision of housing, ongoing attempts to address UK debt etc) ,and take back control so as to redirect essential monies to areas and systems under major strain (which are well recognised).
The irony is that the UK have a very large debt which has to be addressed ( in as careful and timely a manner as not to cause even greater hardship for those already under strain, hence the in work benefit system, tax credits, housing benefit etc) but nowhere in the EU factoring / balancing mechanisms with regard to rules associated with free movement is this effectively taken into account.
So you get the compromising situation where for instance Eastern member state citizens are " expected " to receive equal benefits as UK nationals and yet their country debt levels and cost of living, spending differentials, benefits in their homeland etc are significantly lower. ( Please note I am not blaming the citizens I'm blaming the system!)
There should be far better and more balanced EU factoring mechanisms in place to account for this within the movement of people…..Hence the recent article I posted re Germany who have also recognised this problem and for that matter other EU member states that agree of the need for realistic reforms in this regard.
Adequate and realistic differential factoring mechanisms need to be reassessed together with the wider consequential impacts on cohesion, and addressed within realistic timeframes alongside proper assessment of irregular migration patterns...
Otherwise the vicious circle will continue and exacerbate the problems and citizen disillusionment even more.
But this is only one aspect to disillusionment as others have already identified within this thread.
This message was last edited by ads on 06/03/2017.
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ads - How does depriving Cornwall of £86 million a year in EU funding help? 'Taking back control' by my maths leaves the Cornish people poorer. Do they give a hoot about political reforms anywhere? The cynic in me thinks that's the least of their worries.
You are correct, Britain is hopelessly in debt paying £56 billion per annum in interest payments. Regional and development funding will suffer after Brexit and it's an untruth to pretend otherwise. The UK will cut and cut again it has no choice.
Voter remorse will set in eventually. Britain will be worse off outside the EU but I'm told the Brexiteers believed that would be worth it.
The Chancellor seems to believe it as well saying they have to stockpile funding in the budget for the inevitable downturn to come. The markets also believe it. Watch Sterling drop as we approach article 50 day.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Ads,
"Otherwise the vicious circle will continue and exacerbate the problems and citizen disillusionment even more." A true statement , but as we will no longer be a member of the EU and its problems the only citizen disillusionment will be with our Government and its decsicions within our parliament. So we will be back to the old system of squeezing us till the pips squeak.
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In deprived Cornwall the average house (sold) will set you back a cool £260,000... that does not sound to much like deprivation .
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Many in Cornwall want independance from the UK
Will the govt give the people of Cornwall a vote - doubt it but they might push for it as the UK starts to break up in 2 years time
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Can you imagin if Cornwall was a independent member of the EU .....they would make a fortune selling Cornish Pasties to the EU .
This message was last edited by windtalker on 06/03/2017.
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And clotted cream and strawberry jam scones, windtalker?
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