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"Nissan must gave gotten something and we will find out eventually "
That is just idle speculation.
Seems the remoaners want the UK to fail so badly that they will start any sort of rumour.
Until there is any evidence to to contrary why not take the government statement at face value?
I could say 'the minister for industry has a nice car he must be fiddling his allowances', a total fabrication but more basis in fact than the idle speculation.
I for one have never doubted that the government would do it's best to secure impost free trading for all industry let alone the car industry. Negotiations have yet to start and the government has a good hand.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 30/10/2016.
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Tteedd
Of course you are right speculation based on Nissan saying they need reassurance from uk on trade deals etc before they committed to building nee models in Sunderland
So they were thinking about it then had a meeting with the PM and decided to stay in uk so what made them decide something surely so not simply speculation
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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baz:
I do not write about immigration from none EU nations. That is a separate issue entirely and your post indicates you and a few million others confused the issues in the referendum and put Britain in the ghastly position it now finds itself in.
Immigration to Britain from none EU countries will continue after Brexit even a hard Brexit. Leaving the EU will not change anything.
teedd:
Even a blind horse can see Nissan did not commit to major investment in the UK post Brexit without carrots being offered. Of course it depends on what those carrots are and unless the parties involved come clean we will not know for some time.
I doubt simply explaining to Nissan that the UK government intends seeking tariff free access to the EU for the motor industry was sufficient. That may well be on May's wish list but would a multi national industry be convinced by that?
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 30/10/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I find it mildly amusing that there are forum members who think that they would understand the inner workings of any deal struck between HMG and Nissan. For a start neither would tell the whole truth, and how would anyone know what the truth was anyway?
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Maximum tariff on UK cars into EU = 10% unlikely to be that high given imports into UK
Sterlings latest fall against Euro = 15% Nissan appear to be quids in with or without any deals.
Yes Destry it is amazing how all these experts know what is going on, shame more werent asking questions prior to the referendum when the call was "Why will no one tell me how i should vote?"
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Destry nobody knows what is going on and that is the problem with the enitre Brexit topic.Also how do you know this
For a start neither would tell the whole truth,
are you one of these experts
We can discuss and debate until the cows come home
secrecy and rumours create suspicion and generate mistrust - what a recipe for disaster and on such an important issue
Hugh_man - good guess on 10% tarfiff how do you know for sure, also how confident are you that the £ will contineu to fall or wil it make a come back (it has before) - are you also one of these experts
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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A blind horse can of course see nothing. But it seems a blind human can convince himself he has seen anything especially when it fits his distorted world picture.
Nissan, unlike the government will no doubt have been assessing it's forward investment strategy for a long time before the referendum and will have adjusted it in many ways since. Eventually it came to a conclusion which was a massive vote of confidence for the UK and Nissan's Sunderland work force.
We should al celebrate the descision. But no, we are surrounded by a load if gradgrind remoaners.
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Tteedd I dont disagree but time wil tell as with most things
When the head of a major company saks for reassurance from the govt to help their long investment and strategy then very quickly meets with the PM somethung was agreed all I think what we need to know is what
The longtrem invetsment in the next 2 models is only 3 maybe 5 yrs as they will then be looking for new models and maybe a different outcome for the NE plant when the time comes
We certainly have a verty distorted picture of the short term future - everyone guessing
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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I would love to be an expert on something, perhaps one of you guys would tell me what it is like.
_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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expert -
ex = has been
spurt = drip under pressure
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We are all experts or is it spartacus
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Sorry nice try NORTHEN IRELAND but youre coming OUT too
TONY BLAIR sticking his big NOSE I SEE citing a Cival War in the UK but it does BEG the question what would be the result of ANOTHER referendum
WHAT do you think should we have ANOTHER REFERENDUM
I would still vote to leave but has ANYONE on the FORUM changed SIDES I wonder
SO like this post if you were an OUTIE but now have changed your mind
Love Hugh xx
So no one has changed there mind and a new referendum would give the same result most likely
Says it all really
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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I do not write about immigration from none EU nations. That is a separate issue entirely and your post indicates you and a few million others confused the issues in the referendum and put Britain in the ghastly position it now finds itself in.
Immigration to Britain from none EU countries will continue after Brexit even a hard Brexit. Leaving the EU will not change anything.
In no way did I become confused over immigration into the UK when I voted out, which I did so for reasons other then that, the EU is a mess and it will always be a mess while it keeps on thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread, isn't it true that other countries are watching the UK, why, if it's such a good thing to be in.
How can any knowledgable (Supposed to be anyway) person keep on telling one and all that the brexit is bringing the country down when it's only been this way for less then 6 months, you cant even say a business is working and viable in much under 4/5 years, but you know whats going to happen in less then 6 months?
I and the millions of others had no making of the ghastly position the UK is supposed to be in, joining this mess did that to the UK all on its own.
I do know one thing for sure though, I am not going to keep on running down the country I was born in, I am going to try to do my best to see it prosper, if in anyway I can.
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Tadd
certainly not an expert but most of low IQ can discover that WTO rules do not permit more than 10% tariffs unles v exceptional circumstances such as dumping and average WTO tariff is under 5%.
Do you seriously think Audi and Merc will be happy with similar tariffs the other way round?
No no idea if £ will continue to weaken but you Remoaners complain because it's weak and now you are apparently complaining that it may recover and be bad for exports.
Which do you want?
Or is just that whatever happens 17 mill have made a bad decision.
Nissan have been guaranteed nothing as the government have no idea what deal the EU and its business leaders will agree to yet
. They have accepted that the UK govt will do all in its power to strike a sensible, to all, trade deal so the billions of imports into the UK are also not affected and if the prices go up because of a weaker sterling then perhaps we can look elsewhere to buy our goods from, the world is not flat and business does not stop after the EU boundaries.
Open your minds to globalisation it's been around for a while now.
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Hugh but how do YOU know 01% coudl be 6, 7 8 or 9%
Nobody willbe happy with tariffs but..............
I, like most, have no ide what the £ wil do up or down
and just short of 17 million made a good decisiosn - but you can't please all the people all the time
How do YOU know nissan have been offered nothing ?
Trusting the govt - really?????
Globalisation - It is simply not good enough and alog way from being fair other thanto the few!! Far too many people suffer due to greed, selfishnes, extremism, war etc etc for teh benefit of the few. would love to see it bigger and have greater integration across the globe for all human beings this would help many many millions more than any devolution plans.
All guesswork and no different to anyone else on here.
Too many of the outers can't think outside the little island of ~65million and think they own the world and the world owes them a favour and of course the UK can never be wrong
Audi & merc (like many others sellimng to teh UK will simply add the costs of import duty onto the buyers - not difficult and the UK is NOT their main or only market
This message was last edited by Tadd1966 on 31/10/2016.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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I think it highly likely the directors of Nissan understood one thing and the UK Trade Secretary meant something entirely different and entirely deniable in the future. It’s what politician do.
Not even the EU Commission President has the smallest clue how the negotiations with the UK will pan out over the coming two years. Nissan must be aware of that.
However here is a small clue. The rest of the EU had a trade surplus with the UK of £59 billion in 2014. The UK had a trade deficit with 20 of the other 27 EU member states in 2014 and a deficit of £27 billion with Germany alone. These commercial considerations might lead to pressure for a UK-EU free trade agreement from within the EU. The UK is unlikely to object. That leaves free movement which is and will always be the elephant in the room.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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baz
In no way did I become confused over immigration into the UK when I voted out, which I did so for reasons other then that, the EU is a mess and it will always be a mess while it keeps on thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread, isn't it true that other countries are watching the UK, why, if it's such a good thing to be in.
How can any knowledgable (Supposed to be anyway) person keep on telling one and all that the brexit is bringing the country down when it's only been this way for less then 6 months, you cant even say a business is working and viable in much under 4/5 years, but you know whats going to happen in less then 6 months?
I and the millions of others had no making of the ghastly position the UK is supposed to be in, joining this mess did that to the UK all on its own.
I do know one thing for sure though, I am not going to keep on running down the country I was born in, I am going to try to do my best to see it prosper, if in anyway I can.
1. The EU believes in freedom. The UK is trying to be greedy. 5th biggest economy, 4.9% unemployment, record numbers IN employment, and the UK wants more still. Who really thinks they're the best thing since sliced bread?
2. The state of the pound tells you everything you need to know.
3. The UK has enjoyed generous growth over the past 40 years, with national wealth increasing significantly. Where on earth do you people get the idea that we had it bad? When the pound was at its peak, we enjoyed a tremendous standard of living, because we could buy our imports for peanuts. What was so bad about that? Far better for our currency to fall on its ass and cost us all more for the large number of imports we have, eh? Thats not even short term thinking, thats just plain stupidity.
Hugh
Tadd
certainly not an expert but most of low IQ can discover that WTO rules do not permit more than 10% tariffs unles v exceptional circumstances such as dumping and average WTO tariff is under 5%.
Do you seriously think Audi and Merc will be happy with similar tariffs the other way round?
No no idea if £ will continue to weaken but you Remoaners complain because it's weak and now you are apparently complaining that it may recover and be bad for exports.
Which do you want?
Or is just that whatever happens 17 mill have made a bad decision.
Nissan have been guaranteed nothing as the government have no idea what deal the EU and its business leaders will agree to yet
. They have accepted that the UK govt will do all in its power to strike a sensible, to all, trade deal so the billions of imports into the UK are also not affected and if the prices go up because of a weaker sterling then perhaps we can look elsewhere to buy our goods from, the world is not flat and business does not stop after the EU boundaries.
Open your minds to globalisation it's been around for a while now.
1. Tariff discussion has a long way to go. Not you, nor I, nor even Mrs May, nor even the EU know where we will land.
2. I dont know where you get the idea that we want a weak currency. Our standard o fliving is linked to our currency. As a nation, we have an enormous appetite for imports, and due to our previously high currency, much secondary industry was lost (we were just too expensive), so we just dont make as much as we used to. Once the factories close and those goods start coming in from overseas, setting up new factories become unviable. Even maintaining what we have is tricky, hence the recent discussions with Nissan. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for those discussions, and all I can say is this; IF, and I stress that word IF, a special deal was done for Nissan, how many other companies will then start seeking special deals as well? Will the taxpayer have to subsidise them all? Where will it end? How much will it cost in total?
3. Globalisation. Asking us to open our minds? Come on Hugh. We've had this discussion already. Go to your local supermarket, and just have a look at how many bottles of wine there are from places like South Africa. We ALREADY buy from all corners of the globe. Dont make out like we only buy from the EU and therefore if we dont like the prices we should buy from cheaper countries. Thats being highly disingenuous, and frankly beneath you and everyone else on this forum.
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This is nothing to do with others owing the UK a living, or thinking we are "better", and to suggest such is to wrongly stereotype a nation which has taken pride from being inclusive and tolerant over the years.
Your comments are sadly very provocative and divisive Tadd, and only adds to the concerns of those who are genuinely concerned by the proliferation of extreme views and behaviour that undermine cohesion and tolerance. So please Tadd can you bear this in mind when you make your postings?
What people are reacting to in the UK is a situation out of citizen's control, where the scale of migration into their country has caused a sequence of events that in many regions has impacted their everyday lives to such a degree that they understandably have called for a review and a means to regain control. It is a normal reaction to seeking solutions.
Now some of those solutions require that we rightly look to within to see what our own Govt can do, and in this regard the suggestion has been that we alter our benefit system that developed over the years to assist those "in need" or for whatever reason needed transitional assistance until they could find employment.
If this system has become abused in some way then of course it is for the Govt to take adequate measures to better regulate the system, but this is where the freedom of movement has impacted, because the inflows have significantly added to the pressures.
Plus bear in mind this also came at a moment in time when the Govt were responding to the financial crisis which had a tremendous impact on our debt (it's far more complex than that, to be honest) and in that process the Govt were already implementing measures to tighten up the welfare system and incentivise those unemployed back into work, or retrain, become better educated, etc.
And thankfully to a degree this was definitely beginning to improve ( hence the lowering of the unemployment rates)... but then the migration impact started to proliferate, and the massive growth of part time work and zero hours contracts started to negatively impact the economy ( again highly complex, but suffice to say that native part time workers who were relying on transitional in work benefits, housing benefit etc to assist them back to work and gain a better life for themselves, was not proving cost effective to the economy. But presumably this was intended as a longer term plan to get the native unemployed back into work. )
All well and good, but the long term plan suddenly became further compromised by the proliferation of low skilled migrants taking zero hours contracts, part time jobs, which placed even more pressure on housing, infrastructure. education, already overstretched due to Govt efforts to deal with the growing debt caused by the financial crisis..... and so began the spiral of events.
Part time work has increased to such an extent, 27% of workers, that economists have now identified they are proving of negative fiscal value to the economy given the current in- work benefits ( see http://moneyweek.com/does-immigration-make-britain-richer-or-poorer/... so once again the Govt are having to review their strategy. This website article is actually an eye opener to the complexities involved and the link to Govt debt, which to many are hidden from view. Important nevertheless to understand that bold generalisations are often wrong.
What people were therefore calling for in this interim period were for the EU to demonstrate flexibility to allow TRANSITIONAL controls on migration flows into the UK to assist in this regard until such time as those greater regulations and control of benefits required to better control zero hours contracts and part time work become effective.
Unfortunately the EU have refused to take account of this and the rest is history.
What is required is understanding on both sides of the equation so that we can all find adequate solutions but it requires patience, a willingness to work together, to comprehend the complexities and not proliferate divisiveness in the interim.
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Provocative divisive maybe maybe not
Whatever that are my views and shared by many maybe not by you or a few on here
We can all critcise each other but nothing has been posted on this thread to change my views
I experience a lot of these negative comments from many more than I hear positive
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Thanks for the homework. I read the article you linked, and should point out a few things I disagree with. Lets see what you make of it?
1. Quoting: "Moreover, although correlation does not imply causality, the surge in immigration has coincided with a post-crisis recovery that has been dominated by part-time jobs, a 50% after-inflation leap in benefit payments per head, and a £1.3 trillion surge in government debt."
Further up in the article, it talks about the GFC, and events pre-GFC (2003 and 2004). Thats the background, but what he fails to disclose, is how significant the GFC was, the sheer amount of debt the UK was saddled with, the austerity measures that we are STILL living with today, the rebalancing of the workforce that occured as a direct result of the GFC, and the correlation into self-employment that many of those made redundant after the GFC have had to go through, and are therefore now contributing to the in-benefits discussion.
Its funny how NONE of that was covered in his opinion.
2. If an immigrant moves in to London, but the government in Scotland decides to borrow money to assist with oil-related activities in the North Sea, national debt goes up. Again, NONE of this kind of debt composition was considered in the article, and instead, the immigrants get blamed for the result. Continuing this example, oil prices have collapsed globally, and governments around the world are having very difficult times, due to some of them having particular structures around percentages added to the oil price, and therefore the amount of fuel excise incoming. We have also seen a massive difference in the excise take here in the UK due to generally more efficient cars being bought, which again, directly reduces the tax take. Is immigration to blame now for world oil prices collapsing? Is the immigrant to blame for us buying more efficient cars? Is the immigrant to blame for governments who have control over their own local tax policies, who then, in fact, do not take into account the changing tax composition?
I'm sorry, but the "analysis" in the link provided is very skewed. Another direct example of the difference between average and marginal costs would be this; if an immigrant came here or not, would the government really make a difference in terms of its decision on how much to spend on our armed forces? This is instead, a matter of regional security, NATO membership, power projection, and responding to other regional players like Russia.
I dont think the immigration of people our businesses need really factor much into the budget decisions HMG makes with respect to the top line, however the linked article of course discusses none of this. In addition to this, the article fails to mention what would happen to the economy if the immigrant workforce just disappeared into a cloud of smoke. It agreed that GDP goes up, but then fails miserably to form a coherent argument beyond that (see reasons above regarding Scotland).
Reading the article critically, I would agree with some of the points, but the general thrust of it seems to be poorly researched, sprinkled with a few facts, and highly opinionated.
And finally, government debt has risen from £680B in 2008, to £1.7T today. I wonder how much of this was due to greedy bankers screwing the average folks of the UK, who have had to suffer through austerity, and significant job losses in the public sector, people who moved into self-employment. Now with our currency collapsing and that debt costing us 20% more in raw currency, shall we blame the immigrant, or shall we lay the blame at the feet of a greedy system where bankers earned enormous sums for doing sweet FA, and the government who turned a blind eye because tax receipts were rolling in?
No, of course not. The immigrant is the bogeyman in this fairytale...
This message was last edited by rob_j1 on 31/10/2016.
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