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We appear to be the same age tteedd, however unlike you I can't for the life of me remember why I voted to join the Common Market back in 73, or why I voted in favour of ratification in 75, perhaps it was a young person thing.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Hi Hep.
We did not vote to go in we were ram-rodded in by Edward Heath who did not believe in letting us have the choice. However he, the rest of the political establishment and the EEC campaigned for us to stay in in 75 using much the same scare tactics as the 'ins' now.
I guess I believed them.
I'm now older and wiser.
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This is a link to an article in todays Guardian entitled "Brexit anxiety stalks the Costas".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/05/brexit-costa-del-sol-spain-eu-referendum.
This is the government report pdf link mentioned in the article.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/503908/54538_EU_Series_No2_Accessible.pdf
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I'm finding the antics of the powerful 'In's, against the so called free speech of the powerful 'Out's' quite amusing, all that the 'Out's' have to do is to sit back and let the 'In's' carry on making total fools of themselves, suspensions, gaggings, threats of sackings etc are only going to further the cause and resolve of their opponents.
This message was last edited by Hephaestus on 06/03/2016.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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It took thirty years from conception to signing to complete NAFTA. It took 11 years to negotiate. It involves only three countries that already had some trade agreements in place. It cost hundreds of millions of dollars to negotiate.
Please can the outers tell me how much it is going to cost to negotiate Free Trade Agreements with 28 EU countries plus the WTO.
Please tell me how long it is going to take.
Please tell me what the details of it are going to be.
And if you can't answer all those questions then you don't have the right to even tell me we will be better off because you have just admitted you don't actually know.
That goes for you as well Boris. M
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Well, the thing is perrypower, would they need to negotiate with the other 27 countries in the EU? Surely they would just negotiate on trade and such things with just one entity, the EU itself? After all, the EU signs trade agreements at the moment with other countries that are valid with all the EU countries including UK. And isn't UK already in the WTO so what negotation would be needed there?
However, it will take some time, I agree, but the terms and conditions of trade with the EU will be worked out with the EU, not every individual country.
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It will take longer to negotiate a treaty with the EU as it will require ratification with 27 member states, plus Switzerland and Norway and will require acceptance of the concept of free movement of people which the 'outers' are opposed to. Our membership in the WTO is via the EU and as we will no longer be members of the EU we will not be covered by the WTO-EU treaty. The UK does not have a separate WTO-UK treaty at this time.
My question remains unanswered.
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No, your question was answered. You said the UK would have to negotiate separately with each of the 27 nations in the EU (well, you said 28 but I let that by) and it would just need to negotiate with the EU who would do it on their behalf.
There will be a period of 2 years after an out vote (if there is one) to sort all this out.
And UK not a member of WTO or only because it's part of the EU? The WTO website says The United Kingdom has been a WTO member since 1 January 1995 and a founding member of the previous GATT since 1948. The list of countries belonging to the WTO shows UK as being a member, not as a part of the EU.
Membership of WTO
Now the tone of your post is approaching the rant levels normally associated with the out brigade and is rather wrong.
And @Hephaestus
Yep, the in brigade aren't particularly making a good job of this and the scare tactics will put some peoples backs up. Then again, the out brigade are jumping on the fear wagon with scare stories of the EU collapsing, banking systems and, indeed, whole nations going to the wall. If we stay we will be overrun with immigrants from all round the globe and so on. (if they could speculate so much on currencies and banking systems one would think they could lie on a Caribbean beach and watch the money roll in if they are that clever). The out brigade are also sticking their fingers in their ears and sing na, na, na na, na every time somone says this or that may happen or state, definitely and categorically, that this or that will not happen.
Nope, neither side is convincing. I reckon that, with 3 months to go still, apathy will rule as people get ever so cheesed off with all the claims and counter claims without actually getting an explanation of what will happen.
Now, if they had a TV programme with the inners and outers stuck on a desert island and having to eat witchetty grubs or play with scorpions every time one was caught out in a lie (ie when their lips move) then the great British public may just get off their bums and vote.
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In or out, I don't think that it will make difference soon. Unless the EU get their act together the whole system will collapse. Greece is at breaking point, others countries are building razor wire fences and closing borders. Partly due to Mrs Merkel's stupidity, Europe will be overun with migrants and descend into anarchy. It will cost billions to help Turkey build refugee camps on it's Syrian border but it's the only way to stop people smuggling and all that entails. Let's face it, Europe is divided and without an EU policy, country's are taking the law into their own hands. It's no good wringing our hands and hoping it will go away, it won't, it can only get worse.
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The two years is to sort out separation arrangements, not new trade agreements. A trade agreement with EU still needs to be ratified by all member states. You are wrong on the WTO. My questions remain unaswered.
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The UK like all EU members, are members of the WTO but none of them have trade arrangements via the WTO as it is covered by the EU. So we would ahve to renegotiate new trade arrangements.
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The Russians are just loving all this bullshite about the brake up of the EU we are screwing ourselves and thay are are laughing at us from the side line's.
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The UK membership of the WTO would continue after Brexit. However the trade treaties it currently enjoys with the rest of the world are in place because of its EU membership which negotiates under one banner. The legal situation is those existing treaties relating to the UK would cease on exit from the EU.
Then new UK stand alone treaty arrangements would require to be negotiated. It practice this could take up to 10 years to complete if past experience is a yardstick. Meanwhile The UK would be in a trade tariff world.
The UK will also need new trade arrangements with all EU member states.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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IN press LIKE
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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Lets do a poll guys
Out press LIKE
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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The UK will also need new trade arrangements with all EU member states.
Here we go again, people telling us what will happen as if they are actually on the committee or board that will decide. No, you don't know that will happen and you are guessing. In my opinion, the UK will not need new trade agreements with every individual country. The EU trade delegation opened up trade agreemens with China on behalf of all EU countries. What would be different about the EU opening up trade agreements with the UK on behalf of all EU countries?
And regarding the WTO, how do you know that? Even the people that should know argue about it. David Bannerman (Tory MEP) says the exisiting WTO agreements would remain as the EU is not an individual member of the WTO. Lord Mandelson disagrees and says it is an individual member so UK would need to reopen discussions if out of the EU
So, come on guys, you tell us exactly how it is but please put "I think" or "in my opinion (humble or considered)" before it. Don't come on and say this will happen or that will happen because you simply don't know and it depends what article in what newspaper you have read today..
Just so you can cherry pick your view depeding on your slant on things, first Lord Lawson (former Chancellor):
Lord Lawson, former Conservative chancellor of the exchequer and chairman of the Vote Leave campaign group, thinks so.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's World at One on Monday he said that if Britain left the EU: "First of all our trade relations with the rest of the world remain totally unchanged because the European Union did not negotiate as the European Union.
"It's not allowed to, it's not a member of the World Trade Organisation, it negotiated on behalf of the member states. So all our arrangements with the rest of the world remain totally unchanged."
But Lord Mandelson:
On BBC Radio 4's Today programme on Tuesday, Lord Mandelson, a former EU trade commissioner who is campaigning for Britain to remain in the EU, denied this was the case. The EU is a member in its own right and the UK would need to renew all previous agreements made on its behalf.
The same BBC article I got those quotes from also says Experts we have consulted think the UK could expect full access to the markets of WTO members on the same terms as other members of the organisation. It is a basic principle of the WTO that trade policy is supposed to be non-discriminatory.
Yet then goes on to say:
In the event that we leave the EU, we would need to update the terms of our WTO membership where the commitments taken have previously applied to the EU as a whole.
"This would not be a straightforward process as, if we leave the EU, then we would need all other WTO members to agree how the UK will take on the rights and obligations which we have formerly taken as a part of the EU.
So pick the bones out of that lot.
This message was last edited by mariedav on 07/03/2016.
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Here are a few facts for you taken from the UK government paper, entitled ‘The Process of Withdrawing from the European Union’. I don't believe for one moment two years will be a long enough period to negotiate all the complex treaty terms involved in the disentanglment from the Union.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/503908/54538_EU_Series_No2_Accessible.pdf
An extension to the two year deadline would also require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining Member States. Without such an extension, if after two years no deal were reached, or the UK were not able to accept the deal that was offered, exit would take place automatically and without any protection for the rights of UK business to trade on a preferential basis with Europe, UK citizens to live in Europe, or UK travellers to move about freely in Europe.
The second issue at stake is the nature of the negotiations that would follow an exit vote. The UK would, at the moment Article 50 is triggered, be excluded from EU discussions on the nature of the exit negotiations. These would be settled by the remaining EU Member States.
A third consideration is the range of issues that would be affected by a vote for exit and which would be subject to negotiation with the rest of the EU during the exit process. Reaching agreement on such a wide range of issues, with a large number of negotiating partners, each of whom would seek to defend their interests, should be expected to be difficult and involve potentially unpalatable trade-offs.
Moreover, the implications are not confined to our dealings with Europe. The UK’s trading relationship with countries around the world, for instance, is bound up in agreements. The process for withdrawing from the European Union reached by the EU which would cease to apply to the UK on our departure from the EU. Replacements for these too would have to be negotiated.
I would not accept anything Nigel Lawson says. He was a failed Chancellor of the Exchequer and is a climate change denier.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 07/03/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Hi MickyFinn
A 'government paper' that we are allowed to see, could'nt be biased at all then (lol).
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I would not accept anything Nigel Lawson says. He was a failed Chancellor of the Exchequer and is a climate change denier.
Here lies the problem, now the Prince of Darkness is in the loop they will all get to know how to decieve, this one-that one...All tarred with the same brush....Not one person in power knows what can, could or will happen, you may as well ask your barber, they know everything.
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I'm voting to stay in as its good for Scotland trading..
Looks like there's going to be a high percentage of us over the border voting to stay in.
Over the border it seems to be different my family down in London are nearly all voting to exit. Is this still the general response or does it differ where you live from area to area.
I still think this can go to the wire depends a lot of how fleet street front page efforts view it..
They certainly will play a big part as will the BBC
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