BREXIT

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03 Feb 2017 1:07 PM by hughjardon Star rating in Jaywick Sands. 418 posts Send private message

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MPs were asked what is your personal vote not what your constituents voted that's what most people seem to forget

Love Hugh xx

 



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03 Feb 2017 1:10 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

bigal

Simple reallay they shoudl have had their own national vote and as the result was

England and Wales voted to leave

NI and Scotland voted to remian

The UK should break up and allow the 4 natiosn do as THEY wish

No nations  vote should dictate what the other 2 nations wanted to do

 

Yes teh UK is classed as one nation as far as  EU membership is concnerned so a plan shoudl have been worked out to guarantee the wishes of the majorities in each of the 4 nations of the UK

It is clear the UK does not have a fair union with each state having the same equal status despite having their own elected MP's and parliaments

What we have is a deeply divided union of 4 states with their own devolved powers (although clearly they are somewhat restricted by Westminster which sadly will change)

 



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03 Feb 2017 2:06 PM by potblack Star rating in Alicante & Singapore. 233 posts Send private message

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This subject does seem a little bizarre. United Kingdom equals united when it suits.



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03 Feb 2017 2:18 PM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Tadd

We entered the EU as we now know it as a United Kingdom and would always have had to leave as a United Kingdom.

If Scotland & NI wish to be in the EU they need to apply and see if they are allowed to join and what deal would be offered to them (if any).

I think it is safe to say that Scotland & NI would not have been in the EU if they had not been part of the United Kingdom.

Not too sure what you mean by (although clearly they are somewhat restricted by Westminster which sadly will change)?

 


This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 03/02/2017.



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03 Feb 2017 3:04 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

biall

I agree but Scotland and NI may not agree

Yes t hey will have to apply once they leave the UK butthsi coudl easily have been planned and taken into consdieratiion

Scotland and NI devolved govts are stiil controlled and governed by Westminster  (recent supreme court ruling supported that)

You could not sya for certain that any of the 4 nations would have been in our out of the EU if  they were not in the UK. Had the UK broken up prior to joining teh EU all 4 nations could have applied indepednatly at the same time

Bottom line is over the next 2 years or so not only does the UK have to negotaite an exit they have to consider a break up of the UK either after brexit or during the 2 year timeframe- either way not good for anyone and the costs involved will simply fall on the taxpayer



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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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03 Feb 2017 3:43 PM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Tadd

As I live in Scotland I can assure that we will not break away from the UK.

It is the politicians that want to break away, not the people of Scotland.

We had this option not so long ago and rejected it and Alex Salmond, we will do the same to Nicola Sturgeon.





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03 Feb 2017 4:17 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

bigal

In one sense I hope you are right but I doubt it

If I recall the vote to leave the UK was won by a small majority 55% vs 45% and the remain EU vote was a lot higher 62% vs 38% . Di

fferent turnouts but the indepence vote allowed 16 yr olds a vote so on balance I would guess that the majority would leave the UK in favour of joing remaining in the EU

 

 



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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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03 Feb 2017 4:23 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Promising breaking news 

Theresa May and the Spanish Prime Minister have agreed there should be an early deal for expats' rights after Brexit. 

Mrs May is using the Valletta summit to build alliances ahead of Brexit negotiations.

She is holding meetings on the margins of the summit with leaders including Germany's Angela Merkel, Spain's Mariano Rajoy and Austria's Christian Kern.

Following the talks with Mr Rajoy and Mr Kern, Number 10 said Mrs May updated them on the UK's preparations for Brexit and her desire for a "strong partnership with the EU in future".

Mr Rajoy said her speech setting out her Brexit plans - including quitting the single market - had "clarified many things" and given a greater degree of certainty.

"They agreed that it was important to think about the future relationship as well as the detailed exit arrangement, so that we can give greater certainty for people and businesses who want to live and work in each other's countries," a Downing Street source said.

Independent 3rd February.



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03 Feb 2017 4:48 PM by Elsietanner Star rating in Alicante & New York. 164 posts Send private message

Elsietanner´s avatar

Whatever next

Mickyfinn  EOS news, live, Valletta, Malta.

Maybe Sky News or CNN?wink



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03 Feb 2017 5:13 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

However, an MP abstaining in any vote in parlaiment is a disgrace

Have you voted in every general election Tadd?





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03 Feb 2017 5:33 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

tteedd

no and for many reasons but I am not elected by anyone to vote on their behalf or represent them



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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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03 Feb 2017 5:49 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

There are many reasons that MP's might not vote.

They are paired at a division.

They have moral, ethical or religeous principles that will not allow them to vote with their party but will not be disloyal and vote against.

They are very ill.

They wish to vote one way but face de-selection if they do so.

They feel that they do not have the tecnical competence to judge the issue (I think this excuse should be used more often).

Whatever they vote it is up to their constituents to decide if they are fit to be their representitve at the next election.

Likewise, Tadd, it is your right not to vote at an election. A person chosing not to vote is only saying that he accepts the choice of those that do.

I have voted (in person or by proxy) at every election since I was 21. I respect your decision not to vote and (in the right circumstances) I would respect my MP's right not to vote if he had good reason.

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 03/02/2017.



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03 Feb 2017 7:18 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

tteedd

you make some good points but an MP is representing the voters and abstaining is wrong and simply ignoriing those who appointed him.

If they are ill and not in attendance fair call (not sure if they are allowed a proxy vote or not)

morality, ethics etc should not come into it - they are representing others NOT themselves. One could ask themselve why they would vote for someone who had so many problems that they coudl not vote but as we know many voters vote for the colour not the MP

I wonder how you would feel if you asked for assitance from your MP on a crtical issue to you, your family, friends, neigbours etc but because of his/her moral, ethcial, religous, fear of de selection, going against the party, illness, slrf (or conflict)of interst and personal reasons refused to take up your cause

facing de selection - wrong again they should not be in politics if they live in fear of doing what they have been voted in to do i.e. represent the voters

Technical competence - they employ experts, advisors and have committees to advise them, if this is the case then they should not be in politics simple

yes voters can get rid of  them but often that is too late for the matter in hand and a consequence of an action (or inaction) after the horse has bolted etc.

I accpet if I did not vote I have to accept the votes of others but the only person I have let down is me and nobody is depedning upon me to get their opinion across etc. or make decicons on their behalf

How would you feel if your appointed proxy voted differently to how you instructed them to or if they abstained on your behalf

 



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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03 Feb 2017 11:19 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Early days of course but good to hear of at least a little positivity Mickeyfinn. 





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04 Feb 2017 10:30 AM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Ads - “I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will.” Gramsci

The governments of Australia, New Zealand, Canada and India have indicated that they will be looking for easier immigration access for their workers to come to the UK as a condition of any trade deal.

After Brexit the likelihood of any reduction in immigration numbers looks virtually impossible. With a weakened economy post Brexit Britain will require all the cheap labour it can find.

People who backed Brexit in the belief it would lead to a cut in immigration into the UK were voting for something that is in effect impossible. Europeans will still keep coming but you also need to add to that arrivals from new trade deals nations around the world.

The only issue that may prevent it happening is a massive downturn in the UK economy which is also a strong possibility.

This may be a pessimistic or realistic view depending on your point of view. but when the ‘outers’ realise they acutally voted to make their country a great deal weaker economically and politically, what then?



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Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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04 Feb 2017 11:20 AM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Interesting comment Mickey.

Doesn't seem so long ago that Brits were falling over themselves trying to obtain visas to work in Canada or Australiacas there were few opportunities in UK,

Have things turned?

 


This message was last edited by hugh_man on 04/02/2017.



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04 Feb 2017 11:34 AM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

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So much for the experts forecasts previously.

 

Optimism quickly returned and figures last month showed Britain was the fastest growing major economy in the developed world last year – leaving G7 rivals such as the US, Germany and France trailing in its wake.

A senior Bank of England official yesterday said the election of Donald Trump has boosted financial markets around the world – giving the UK economy a lift.

The Bank this week said the economy was set to grow by 2 per cent again this year – more than double the 0.8 per cent rate of expansion it forecast in August.

It marked a humiliating U-turn for Bank governor Mark Carney who before the referendum warned that a vote to leave could tip the economy into recession.

IHS Markit said its index of activity across the economy, which takes in builders, manufacturers and services companies, dipped from a 17-month high of 56.5 in December to 55.2 in January.





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04 Feb 2017 12:26 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Yes Hugh I agree at the moment the UK economy has proved resilient to the Brexit vote. However there are valid reasons for that.

1. Interest rates remain low so consumer spending and borrowing has increased.

2. Sterling has depreciated 20% since June as predicted, so exports thrive in the free market.

3. Britain remains a full member of the EU for two years.

Given these economic factors it is hardly surprising the UK continues to perform well. However unless Sterling depreciates further to parity with the US Dollar and even below parity with the Euro I don’t see growth being sustained once Brexit fully takes place. The world trade deals the UK may obtain will never replace the advantages of the EU single market or customs union which the UK has to leave.

Unfortunately the pre referendum campaign has left the Brits believing they have escaped the doom laden forecasts.  

They were technically right except the rhetoric should have indicated more clearly the consequences of leaving would not be fully felt until the UK actually was no longer a member of the EU.

 



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Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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04 Feb 2017 1:26 PM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

Yes mickey I follow your argument.

i have some further comments about this though.   Given that the UK is the one with the best returning figures and the confounding nature of its performance, I wonder if there are any experts left in the world, or if they are just pinching a living.

After all, the UK is doing all this in spite of the turbulent times predicted, whereas the other countries around the world, and including the might of the EU with its power and single currency, are not doing as well, and they have no 'were doomed' scenario hanging over them.   

So what's to be scared of?



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04 Feb 2017 1:35 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Where your analysis might be flawed Mickeyfinn is your premise and generalisation that Brexiteers wanted to cut immigration without taking any account of them wanting to retain some  CONTROL of that process such that  the process should be MANAGED AND ANALYSED and take adequate account of the SPEED at which it is accomplished and the magnitude of movements.

Time and time again in open debates this was brought to the forefront of concern by British citizens, amongst other aspects associated with sovereignty and desire to retain control of their own destiny rather than be dictated to by a sadly unaccountable intransigent inflexibile elite.

Many wanted to regain control as they distrusted the EU bureaucrats who demonstrated on all too many occasions their unwillingness to listen to concerns, to review their policy etc. All of this played a major factor in Brexit.

Aspects requiring greater analysis and control were highlighted such as.... 

Analysis of national  and regional shortfall of labour, skill sets, intellectual prowess, seasonal or longer term shortfalls, timeframes to realistically address the shortfalls and strategies to accommodate for such ( forward planning educational directives , skills development etc). Although it may be argued that this is a national requirement to address such matters it is essential to reflect upon the speed and magnitude at which the UK was being impacted by EU strategy for open and mismanaged uncontrolled migration.

Analysis of infrastructure, health system, educational system, penal system, housing and benefit systems etc and ability to cope. Again speed and magnitude of the inward flow of people played it's part without adequate or realistic analysis on the EUs part for the need to forward plan, control and manage in such a manner to adequately  tailor unrest, disharmony, division etc rather than perpetuate/ exacerbate the problem.

Greater analysis of differentials between member states to take account of pull factors ( such as country's unemployment levels, wage differentials, country debt and austerity measures to manage debt, benefit system differentials, cost of living and spending power differentials, differentials relating to civilised and established caring structures,  citizen psyche with emphasis on a desire to retain a caring and balanced structure, (developed over many decades but in the process of  ongoing reform to incentivise work alongside fallback mechanisms to tackle poverty etc. )

By failing to recognise or demonstrate a willingness to respond to growing citizen concern, by failing to review and reform EU policy to reflect and allow adequate time to better accommodate and control swift large scale migration, by intransigent rhetoric on the part of EU Commissioners, all these factors only accentuated citizen distrust and alienation against the EU bureaucrats.

And in the interim the question was being asked has the EU effectively analysed and created policy for growth strategies to encourage greater self sufficiency within member states without undue reliance on other member states etc. Again what forward plans were in place to tackle large scale unemployment, the need to encourage diversity of economies, rather than exacerbate problems elsewhere?

Has the EU system failed to reflect such complexities into its policy decision making, has it effectively failed to analyse and establish fair  "factoring mechanisms" and realistic timeframes, growth strategies to tackle unemployment, but most importantly has it recognised the impact on citizen and member state cohesion if it fails to do so?

I would suggest it has not and sadly the losers in this sorry saga appear to have been citizens of all member states.

But it doesn't have to be like this!

IMHO it's now time for reform, greater intellectual analysis, willingness to seek out mutual benefits, curb unfair or unjust practice, stem intransigent inflexible political ideological dogma that sadly has the potential  to cause downward spiralling effects, division and unrest in its wake.

It's time for change post Brexit, and IMHO I suspect success will depend upon putting aside unrealistic ideological intransigence ( bullying and making scapegoats) and replace such negative divisive rhetoric with a more positive approach, a coming together of leaders intent on finding mutually beneficial outcomes.

I live in hope!

 

.

 


This message was last edited by ads on 04/02/2017.



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