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For me,the most important thing about today's judgement is that it pretty much guarantees that a parliamentary vote will be taken on the final negociated deal - can't say fairer than that. Mrs May had already said there would be but now it should be added as an amendment to the current bill.
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'The UK government should not have to much trouble getting the Brexit approved in the house of lord as the majority of the none elected house of lords are Conservative through and through'
Not the case.
Many of the hereditrys were removed and the place stuffed with Labour and Lib Dems by Blair and Brown. The Government does not have a majority.
What's more the remoaner lords do not have Brexit constituents threatening to vote UKIP breathing down their necks.
If they do cause trouble then we will have all parties looking to reform the upper house.
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I wonder how much all that fiasco has cost the taxpayer. A dam good earner for some, nice work if you can get it.
NHS in financial crisis, who gives a toss.
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Elise - Micky UK parliament grants our rights in the UK and will have no jurisdiction in the EU. The EU grants rights to EU citizens. We will not be EU citizens, we have jacked it in, don’t you get it.
You do still not understand the actual legal situation. I'll explain. All EU council of ministers agree treaties together. UK parliament ratifies said treaty providing UK citizen the legal rights previously agreed. That's the legal entitlements we have enjoyed for forty years.
UK parliament agrees Brexit terms INCLUDING UK citizen rights based on negotiations to be held and agreed by EU. Then 27 parliaments also need to ratify the agreement. UK citizens may get some rights restored within that agreement and maybe not. Whatever takes place it must now be approved beforehand by the UK parliament.
I hope I have made it clear. Parliaments are sovereign not governments or their negotiating ministers..
'Fiasco' is a strong word. All the citizen has between it and anarchy and dictatorship is the rule of law.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 24/01/2017.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I can't help but think that there will be a general election if the MP's and lords ignore the wishes of the electorate, deselections will happen and hopefully the legal system will be reformed after the dust has settled. Suffice to say, if the commons and lords agree to trigger Article 50 the remainers will still cry foul play, we've all witnessed the anti Trump demonstrations following the US election, so much for democracy.
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Vote Mickey for UK President, whilst he knows better than everyone else.
Politics are nearly always close to fiascos because you can never satisfy all of the people all of the time.
So someone is bound to object and protest, whatever decisions are made, only sensible answer is take the majority view.
Oh I forgot, not if it doesn't suit a vociferous few.
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Best wishes, Brian
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Hugh - whilst he knows better than everyone else.
No I don't. I simply have an opinion contrary to yours.
Labour’s shadow Brexit minister Matthew Pennycook MP said yesterday after the Supreme Court judgment one of five amendments to be tabled by the party, will be to guarantee the legal status of EU citizens in the UK before the start of negotiations.
Campaigners are now hopeful that increased public pressure on opposition parties to include the rights of EU nationals in tabled amendments will help to secure their status after Brexit. Of course that does nothing to protect the rights of expat Britons whose fate lies now in the hands on the Europeans.
Hopefully it is inconceivable that if the UK grants legal rights to their expats prior to negotiations Europe would not follow suit.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Yes Micky. That's true.
I find it inconceivable that this type of negotiation has not been put on the list from day one also.
Bringing things like these to the publics attention is good, as long as it doesn't spoil any negotiations already taking place, because as you say, we can only vote on the one side of things in our parliament. If we look to be trying to force the EU to take any decisions now, it could have a negative effect.
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As one of the main topics many voted on was migrants, how do they feel about all EU citizens currently residing in UK (and those who will come over to UK before brexit is complete)?
Do the exiters want them to remain or not?
How do the exiters feel about the proposed amendment to protect EU citizens in the UK?
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This is exactly why TM said this could not be a unilateral decision and had to be a bilateral agreement.
All manner of other issues arise from this. When do these continuing rights commence from, in other words if there is another sudden influx of people to the UK, post triggering article 50 will they be excluded? How do we ensure that this does not act as yet another swift migration pull factor in the interim?
The UK should ensure that all of the aspects being negotiated take into account the many reasons and concerns that led to people voting for Brexit.
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And that is precisely why a White Paper on Article.50 is required.
Posters on this thread and the Government have made a big point that the Government won the Supreme Court case on the matter of Devolved Government Vetos unanimously and that the Article.50 Parliament Act decision was split at 8 to 3 and thus made a case that the Government's Decision to attempt to side step Parliament was valid and in need of consideration. Well just as long as all those who support this view also accept that the referendum result to start the process was lower that 13 to 12 which is a darn site tighter than 8 to 3 and therefore needs even greater consideration.
The Government expected the Supreme Court outcome to be 7 to 4 so they did far worse than they expected.
The Leave position is "we should get rid of the Supreme Court" because we are unhappy with their decision. The government is doing everything they can to avoid a White Paper and thwart Parliament's righ tto fully debate the issue even going as far as saying Mrs May's speach at Davos is good enough. Well it is not good enough. 16,141,241 people voted against starting the process and the Government of the Day was also opposed. Anything less than a White Paper with the ability of MP's to add, debate and vote on amendments to Article.50 Parliament Act is a failure to accept the Right of the People through Parliament, at which point the Government should resign and call for a General Election.
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ads,
I would also like to know the breakdown of voters by employment status, we can be fairly sure that the public sector were in the main remainers, however I have been surprised by the admissions of folk that I know, and their reasons for making their decision.
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ads. It is exactly why the UK parliament has to debate these issues and not leave it to a group of ministers to decide on their own account what they think is best for the rest of us.
In truth the UK economy is now dependent to a degree on the EU migrant labour in place and legally resident in the country. Forcing them all to leave would be ridiculous. If they refused which is most likely what then? Mass deportations? If they try that the EU is likely to retaliate.
I think in all practical aspects a unilateral agreement by both side to ensure all existing EU citizen rights continue after Brexit is long overdue. I think the reason it’s not yet been done is to avoid a massive rush of inward migration to defeat any cut off date.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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There cannot be any cutoff date for Free Movement prior to the completion of Brexit, so anywhere from two to five years. It would be illegal to do so. The right to Free Movement is ingrained in our unwritten constitution. Remember, EU migrants can only stay if they have work and can only come if they have offers of work. The idea that we would deport legal EU migrants working or retired in the UK after completion of Brexit is so far fetched that I would expect riots against the government on a scale that would result in the equivalent of a civil war.
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perrypower1 Remember, EU migrants can only stay if they have work and can only come if they have offers of work.
In theory yes, in reality no.
I recently watched BBC programme REGENT STREET. There were coach loads of eastern bloc EU citizens arriving in central London on a daily basis ‘’Pennyless’’. Living in the subways and using the local parks as toilets. The only action taken by the police was to move them on down the road.
The problem with this thread and many other situations throughout the world is that people are mostly quoting the mythical rule book and not the actual reality. Living in cuckoo land.
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Once an EU citizen has been in the UK for more than five years, they are given permanent residency rights. Estimates by the Home Office reveal about 80% of the current EU migrants have those rights already. The others no doubt will qualify by the time Brexit happens. So perhaps this is a none issue for all practical purposes.
However parliament needs to reaffirm it and cement these rights as a condition of invoking article 50. Sadly I expect the Tories to defeat Labour’s amendment.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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rights as a condition of invoking article 50.
I do not fully understand this. Is it like handing in your notice at work but stating you still want to keep the company car and your office? Is there actual options to trigger article 50 with conditions or is it a simple goodbye document and any new arrangements will have to be dealt with separately from scratch.
Or did you mean the UK goverment giving rights to current EU citizens in the UK.
This message was last edited by Elsietanner on 25/01/2017.
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Once an EU citizen has been in the UK for more than five years, they are given permanent residency rights.
The question is what happens if you have been here for one week or four years and 51 weeks at the time Brexit is a done deal. What will be the status of those people?
Of the estimted 3 million EU Migrants living in the UK, about 2.5 million already are entitled to residency...it is their right and that will not change. A further 320,000 will have reached the residency threshold by March 2019. Something like 200,000 may fall one year short but all those who came since March 2014 and remain might have an issue. It is a complicated mess that really is absolutely inhuman to be used as a bargaining chip.
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Elsi - Or did you mean the UK goverment giving rights to current EU citizens in the UK.
Not government but parliament via the Labour Party's ammendment as a condition or article 50.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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