BREXIT

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19 Jan 2017 2:28 PM by windtalker Star rating. 1949 posts Send private message

If you want to blame some one for the Brexit then that some one should be the president of the EU ,the EU claims to be fair and Democratic ,this is not so many other countries including the UK,  in the EU are concerned about mass uncontrolled migration and yet the only so called educated response they are giving is that migration is good for a country it leads to growth and prosperity ,all the UK is saying is that we are prosperous and grown enough and we want to send the mass migration to a poor part of the EU that is interested in growth and prosperity we are not greedy hear in the UK just sensible.

 


This message was last edited by windtalker on 19/01/2017.



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19 Jan 2017 2:34 PM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Quite right Windtalker...

How selfish are we (or come to that the EU)?, if more immigrants lead to prosperity and growth etc, what are we doing to Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc by stripping their moneymaking resource, ie. their people?

 


This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 19/01/2017.



Like 1      
19 Jan 2017 2:35 PM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

I dont think democracy is when 27 states have to agree on one item the other one proposes is it?    That sounds more like a gangland mentality.



_______________________

Best wishes, Brian

 




Like 3      
19 Jan 2017 2:52 PM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

Brian,  

Funny that you said that, the UK is the only EU nation without an official Mafia, it's not for the lack of trying, but the Krays and the Richardsons were too tough for them

😉

 

 

   



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19 Jan 2017 3:24 PM by hughjardon Star rating in Jaywick Sands. 418 posts Send private message

hughjardon´s avatar

Well Im looking forward to the day when we as a country make all our own decisions and not have to answer to a KANGAROO court 

Love Hugh xx



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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK



Like 4      
19 Jan 2017 3:37 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

ads Is it beyond the remit of EU bureaucrats to comprehend this undeniable reality of citizen discontent?

Again I'm not necessarily supporting that view only pointing out the réal politique. Britain allowed Eurosceptic attitudes to grow instead of addressing the root causes of discontent. Lack of investment in public housing, social care and the NHS. Governments of all colours did not address the benefits of EU membership or try harder to reach a consensus to remove the negatives.

The result is all to plain to read on this thread. I am very glad I no longer consider myself British.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



Like 3      
19 Jan 2017 3:47 PM by hughjardon Star rating in Jaywick Sands. 418 posts Send private message

hughjardon´s avatar

 I am very glad I no longer consider myself British.Mickey Finn

Thats fine with me I dont want to be surrounded by negative people trying to bring others down to there level when a democratic vote decided the future of the UK

PLEASE STAY IN FRANCE 

Hugh



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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK



Like 7      
19 Jan 2017 3:59 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message


Tteedd your last post reads like we will be all walking about the UK with our arse hanging out of our trousers withing two year's

Windtalker. The Italicised part is a quote from someone else - in that case Mickyfin. Likewise the italicised part above is a quote from you.

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 19/01/2017.



Like 0      
19 Jan 2017 4:05 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message


I am very glad I no longer consider myself British.

 

Then why did you start this thread and become the main contributor to it? It should be of little concern to you.





Like 4      
19 Jan 2017 4:11 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

How will it damge them more I don't see that

They export much more to us than we they. Tarriffs work both ways.

Indeed because of their external tarriffs (which we need no longer enforce) we will be better placed to substitute trade with the rest of the world.





Like 2      
19 Jan 2017 4:29 PM by windtalker Star rating. 1949 posts Send private message

Mickyfinn you have got to be kidding with that remark ,I am sure you will   consider yourself British just like the rest of them when it comes to claiming your OAP.

 


This message was last edited by windtalker on 19/01/2017.



Like 8      
19 Jan 2017 10:03 PM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

 I am very glad I no longer consider myself British.Mickey Finn

Thats fine with me I dont want to be surrounded by negative people trying to bring others down to there level when a democratic vote decided the future of the UK

PLEASE STAY IN FRANCE 

 

And let's hope you are legal in France, have applied for residency and are contributing to their health systems, which are severely stretched.

No doubt you are still accepting your UK State Pension and Heating Allowance for good measure to ensure you can have a comfortable life in France.

Bonne chance.....

 

Autre Hugh





Like 3      
19 Jan 2017 10:33 PM by bobaol Star rating. 2253 posts Send private message

bobaol´s avatar

What's all this with the OAP? If someone's paid into it, surely they should be entitled to it no matter where they live? Or should they give up all rights to something they've paid into all their lives? Just because you live in Calle Toledo instead of Hyacinth Close doesn't preclude your right to getting a bit back to what you've paid in.

In my case, I still pay over £4,000 to the British tax man. I also pay to the Spanish tax man. And? 

This thread has been silly for some time but it is now like an untouched girl appearing in the Little Britain series. Virgin on the ridiculous.

(Oh, and you don't get the heating allowances in France or Spain, nor do you get pension credits, pension top ups or any other type of benefit unless you're one of those who think a pension is a benefit instead of an entitlement for what you've paid in).

 

 





Like 0      
19 Jan 2017 10:38 PM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

Thanks for putting the story straight on those points. 

Didnt someone say people can be illegal in foreign parts though, so are there lots of people claiming from the U.K. And living abroad?



_______________________

Best wishes, Brian

 




Like 2      
19 Jan 2017 11:31 PM by bobaol Star rating. 2253 posts Send private message

bobaol´s avatar

What, you mean like people from UK living "under the radar" in Spain? Not declaring themselves as living there? Not paying into the Spanish system? Not telling the UK so they keep getting their winter fuel allowance? Driving UK reg cars forever with no MOT or Tax (so probably invalid insurance) ?

Best you ask Hugh Jardon that one.

 





Like 2      
20 Jan 2017 9:42 AM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

Yes.  They're the ones.   



_______________________

Best wishes, Brian

 




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20 Jan 2017 10:07 AM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Mickeyfinn,

 

You state “Governments of all colours did not address the benefits of EU membership or try harder to reach a consensus to remove the negatives.”

 

In making such a statement you fail to have taken on board the problem of the EU to adequately manage and oversee, which is outside the remit of individual member states, so I will repeat a posting in which I tried to explain the problem.……..

 

And once entered into this “club” ,such little thought has been given by those professing to “manage and oversee” this club, originally intended to be a common trading entity ( but subsequently changed with different intent as to its political nature, its raison d’etre, supposedly taking into account differences in currency, benefit systems, Govt debts, standard of living, socio - economic structures and standards, etc). All without sufficient thought and forward planning as to how it moves forward in such a manner to fairly and rationally accommodate its citizens’ best interests, each with their own differing needs, priorities and aspirations.

 

Under the nature of agreement EU citizens supposedly came to the UK for work, and reciprocal arrangements were put in place to allow freedom to move across member states in such a manner as to act as a mutually beneficial counter balance for those states suffering high unemployment levels as opposed to other member states with  businesses/industries suffering labour/skills shortages. The intention being from the outset to devise a mutually beneficial system from which each side gains in equal measure.

 

Unfortunately as has been demonstrated under the existing system certain member states appear to have suffered as a consequence, not benefitted, leading to growing citizen unrest when their voices were left unheeded.

 

I would ask the question, what does every logical “counter balance” system have inbuilt as a prerequisite to successful functioning?….IT HAS PREDEFINED CONTROLS AND CHECKS IN PLACE, A WORKABLE EFFECTIVE MONITORING AND REGULATORY SYSTEM, WITH TRUSTED OVERSEERS TO ACT IN A FAIR AND COMPETENT MANNER, WITH SUFFICIENT INBUILT FLEXIBILITY TO CATER FOR CHANGING CIRCUMSTANCES, BUT WITHIN PREDEFINED TOLERANCES (STABILITY MECHANISMS) TO COUNTER ABUSE, TO ENSURE THAT MUTUAL BENEFIT IS RETAINED SUCH THAT NO ONE MEMBER STATE IMPACTS ANOTHER IN SUCH A MANNER AS TO DESTABILISE.

 

If such a counter balance system fails or becomes open to abuse, then it's essential to pinpoint where it is failing and fine tune the system to ensure that the original intent for a mutually beneficial outcome is not compromised.

 

The EU system in this case appears to have failed miserably on several counts.

 

There has been insufficient thought and forward planning given to the differentials between member states to realistically account for the “pull factors” that distort the balance mechanism and result in swift movements of people. Too little thought given to the need for adequate timeframes to realistically prepare for such mechanisms to work effectively. I.e. sufficient time to make provision for, on the one hand the inevitable demands on a recipient state's ability to accommodate an incoming labour force i.e. forward planning of housing, education, health provision and the like, whilst on the other hand make adequate remedial plans to tackle large scale unemployment, I.e. diversification of economies, strategies to promote growth for member states stripped of their labour force.

 

IMHO, neither of these essential prerequisites given all their complex differentials have been effectively managed or adequately accounted for in the form of balancing mechanisms, so in hindsight it was always bound to fail.

 

The UK benefit system being just one example where the differentials between member states appears to have sadly led to a call for a standardised system which fails to take into account the major differences in social structure and means by which a fair balance is attained and retained. For instance the UK has at its core a caring benefit system designed to make provision for those on low incomes or families suffering  hardship for whatever reason, but wherever possible to incentivise their nationals into work ( in-work benefits, tax credits, housing allowances within predefined criteria) to make provision for families in the form of child benefits in line with UK living standards, whilst at the same time with intent to disincentivise abuse of the benefit system (major reform currently in progress).

It was not intended for those non nationals whose own system did not make equal benefit provision for their own workforce and families ( without some form of differential inbuilt factoring). Nor for those non nationals whose main  income was not assisting the member state in terms of TAX CONTRIBUTIONS AND SPENDING POWER  etc. (without effective monitoring of money transfers). Nor was it intended to become a tourist benefit system.

 

 

The UK when trying to bring such aspects to the attention of the EU bureaucrats has sadly been met with intransigence and on several occasions, derision, which is no way to treat a member state that was genuinely striving for reform. 

I sincerely hope that the EU take on board these factors for the remaining member states and don't repeat the mistakes from which the UK has suffered.





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20 Jan 2017 10:44 AM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

Well the middle of the road liberals have all but had their day, the UK has swung to the right, as has the USA, France and Germany are leaning that way. The EU is about to lose circa 10 billion Euros a year, how long will it take for them to realise that the likes of the PIGS nations are no longer affordable?



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20 Jan 2017 10:50 AM by perrypower1 Star rating in Derbyshire/Fuerteven.... 647 posts Send private message

perrypower1´s avatar

Mr Hammond is in Davos telling World political and business leaders that he did not threaten to cut business taxes if the UK does not get the trade deal with the EU that it wants.  

Instead he was putting forward a case that if the UK does not get what it needs from the EU it will reinvent itself, again.

i have no idea what he is on about with this reinvention thing.  I know Dubai reinvented itself by doubling its population and becoming a major tourist destination and a building programme like no other, but how is the UK going to reinvent itself.  

I went looking to see how we had reinvented ourselves before and came across this resource...http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/endofempire_overview_01.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/endofempire_overview_01.shtml

Sadly our past reinventions are not really anything to celebrate.

Do any of you understand how we are going to reinvent the UK?

 





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20 Jan 2017 10:52 AM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

I am a fully legal European thank you very much. I will remain so until my mournful day. It is possible to consider yourself a European first and British by birth even after Brexit.

ads. Britain entered the EU club as you call it by treaty approved and voted upon by it's parliament and the peoples representatives. I presume they will leave it in the same way.

The consequences of membership including the negatives were considered acceptable once for all the advantages it brought the nation. That has never actually changed. Perhaps the EU should have moved it’s position to accommodate dissent but in doing so would weaken what it stands for and lose credibility as an institution.

It's the UK voter perception that changed and I respect that. I believe its wrong but being a democrat first and foremost the majority must prevail to wherever that takes them. Respecting the opposition opinion but not agreeing with its message is the democrat’s mantra.

I have never argued against the referendum result or its legitimism. That is a misunderstanding of my purpose. I argue against the principal of leaving the EU not the right of the people to vote for it. 

Britain is a divided nation on this subject and remainers will not give up. In the future Eurosceptics will be replaced by Euro-enthusiastics. (forgive the pun). Remember the majority of MP’s in the parliament support the EU.

Britain in future will now have to compete in a globalised economy dominated by Trumps protectionism and China aggressive method of doing business.

If people truly believed they would be financially better off outside the EU because of labour market competition and free movement they aint seen nothing yet.

 

 



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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