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Perry what difference does free movement make, UK immigration will almost never be under "tens of thousands" as even after the UK regains control of the border, there will still be too many attempting to come here as they think that the UK is the promised land. Oh, and whats an election got to do with it? nothing.
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Tadd, the benefit system may be attractive to migrants, but unfortunately thats as far as a migrant researches the UK. Even within the EU many think that the UK has a fantastic level of living, and compared to their homeland that may be true, but thats as far as it goes. The migrant never researches the costs of living in the UK which if they did they would be mostly put off coming here solely to claim benefits.
If migrants took into account the true cost of UK living instead of their pie in the sky notions, that in itself would deter migration from anywhere in the world, let alone the EU.
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PP,
Tens of thousands is old hat now..... it's regaining control of numbers and skill sets that has been identified and part voted for, so why keep referring to that?
Robert,
You say "Politicians , and good business sense don't go hand in hand", so what is your solution if not to aspire to make politicians more accountable and rational in their policy making process? Continue with the status quo where member state's citizens are being scapegoated in this ideological experiment, without due regard to their best interests, and in that process live through growing unrest and division, all for the sake of ideological unrealistic aims?
As for the reason why migrants come here, does lack of corruption and regulated systems with greater accountability and better educational opportunities and health provision and a safer society come into their psyche at any point, do you suppose?
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Ads, you say, "what is your solution if not to aspire to make politicians more accountable and rational in their policy making process?" The thing is, quite apart from the UK leaving the EU, my view is of any politician in any power, is that they constantly make bad policy, and somehow there needs to be a way of holding them accountable for their decisions. Perhaps you have some idea of how to do it as i dont.
You also say, "As for the reason why migrants come here, does lack of corruption and regulated systems with greater accountability and better educational opportunities and health provision and a safer society come into their psyche at any point, do you suppose? "
I would quote again, The migrant never researches the costs of living in the UK which if they did they would be mostly put off coming here solely to claim benefits. The cost of living here would outweigh the benefits you mention and it is these state benefits (not just financial) such as education and health care thats give them a distorted vision of how easy living is in the UK.
As for a safer society, it is often these very same migrants that are causing the worst cases of rape, violence and thieving in this country right now, just look at the news, it is rarely a person from the UK perpetrating some of the worst crimes reported.
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Ads.
I agree it's the thought of a better life that attracts immigrants to our UK country. I also agree they don't do much research into what happens when they get here though.
In the end they become trapped
So to avoid disappointment why make it easier!!!
_______________________
Best wishes, Brian
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Brian they dont do enough research BEFORE they get here, and therein lies a good proportion of the problem. Unfortunately theres no provision for this with current politics, as Politicians only see the destruction for all at the end, rather than events leading up to that point in the first place. Shameful.
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Robert,
That was in part my criticism of the EU bureaucrats who were failing ( intransigence) to review the impact of differentials in their free movement policies and their failure to preplan and make allowance ( flexibility) for fair transitional control mechanisms when negotiating with the UK ( or any member state suffering irregular compromising patterns of immigration/emigration for that matter). Shameful.
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Robert, all research goes against what you are saying regarding immigration and crime. There are loads of good articles that reach exactly the opposite conclusion. Here is the conclusion to one.
The immigration crime wave is largely imaginary. In fact, the evidence suggests that in overall terms, diverse migrant communities actually lead to lower crime rates. Highly paid migrants are less likely to commit crimes than locals; and all migrants have an additional incentive to stay on the right side of the law because they may risk deportation if arrested.
The real connection is between crime and poverty. This means arrival of some poor migrant groups in a neighbourhood – such as asylum seekers – may lead to a marginal increase in crime. But it is still poverty – rather than any inherent “criminality” – that is the main driver, and it is especially important to recognise that in the case of asylum seekers, such poverty is the result of deliberate government policy.
It’s also true that newly arrived migrants can put a strain on police resources, especially if they need help with translators or are more likely to be the perpetrators (or the victims) of new types of crime. But this is a question of resource allocation, which needs to be considered in terms of migrants’ broader fiscal contributions.
In the final analysis, it’s easy to declare that no migrant should commit any crime, and that the best way of achieving this is to only admit the highly-skilled and the highly-paid. But there’s no evidence low-paid migrants are any more likely to commit crimes, and we need them too. The real links we need to pay attention to are the complex long-term links between social integration, poverty and crime. And that’s not just a question about immigrants: it’s a discussion about citizens too.
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And another from one of your tabloids.
Crime levels are at their lowest for 33 years. Rates of murder and violent crime have fallen more rapidly in the UK in the past decade than in many other countries in Western Europe, researchers say.
During a period of mass migration between 2003 and 2012, the UK peace index, found UK homicides per 100,000 people had fallen from 1.99 in 2003 to one in 2012.
The fear that immigration generates racial tensions and hence increased crime levels has been fuelled by right-wing politicians including UKIP leader Nigel Farage who warned that Britain was facing a “Romanian crime wave”.
But in the first few months after the borders were opened to Romanians and Bulgarians the number of arrests has barely changed and the number of charges has actually dropped.
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Nigel Farage is just a drum banger and is on the side of pure romanticism, just as many years ago the National Front was, with much more physical venom. Nigel Farage is the modern enlightened troublemaker.
Nigel Farage aside, i feel that your last thread is in my opinion flawed, in that everywhere you look for lawlessness there seems to be a reporting of immigrants at the root of it. I have seen potential lawbreakers even before they reached our shores and unfortunately they were Romanian, so possibly Nigel Farage was right there.
The Romanians were in a Romanian registered car waiting for a ferry to the UK, and by their demeanour they were obviously up to no good. One of their group was walking behind the parked cars, casing them for anything in the cars of value, it was so obvious you could not miss it. Once we were on the ferry he appeared in the lounge and as he walked around he was closely inspecting peoples shoulder bags and anything carried, again so obvious his intention could be clearly seen. I expect they were a team that it is known Romanians operate as, usually in Oxford Street in London, picking pockets and shoplifting. They have been shown doing this sort of crime on TV often.
Unfortunately benefits in the UK gives them a basic "wage" and this type of person comes here, topping up benefits with the proceeds of their crimes.
Perry, you can do anything with figures and percentages if you are inclined, such as your quote,
"During a period of mass migration between 2003 and 2012, the UK peace index, found UK homicides per 100,000 people had fallen from 1.99 in 2003 to one in 2012."
This is just such an example, so in 2012 the rate had fallen to one in 100,000 but how many of that one in 100,000 were immigrants and not UK born offenders? Your statistic does not show this, and if the Migrant figure was removed, how much lower would that statistic be? I am sorry Perry you are attempting to paint a picture vastly different to reality, to the polar opposite of Nigel Farage's rantings. Both of you need to stop, stand back and take a look at reality, which would be somewhere in the middle.
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I strongly agree with Ads:
"What is required now are role models in both the UK and EU who demonstrate a greater moral compass willing to review the need for flexibility and review built into systems and policy making, that better balance citizen vulnerabilities and sovereign requirements, with good business sense to the mutual benefit of all, instead of a dogmatic approach that only alienates and divides ( leading to unnecessary unrest)".
_______________________
Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA
Lawyer
Director www.costaluzlawyers.es
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Maria, do you know of any politician who is not dogmatic, as i dont.
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Yes violent crime has been falling for some time now, there are some concerns about the way it's reported and stats are gathered though. But all in all good news.
Hesrtening that it's a better state of affairs than the EU, thanks for stating that.
The peace index isn't a good source of research though PP. try other areas.
And....it's the composition of the crime within the figures, not the reduction in crime number that would be most interesting. I can see you gathered some opinions but if you can tell us how many crimes are committed by which nationality and what they are, it will be really good research PP.
i would avoid tabloids though.
_______________________
Best wishes, Brian
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Brian that info is available on the net, just research it and you will see how lame the immigrants=crime argument is. It is just not true, never has been and was invented by racists to further their position.
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Excuse me Perry? Racist? i am not a racist nor will i ever be, so dont even go there or i will make a complaint to the EOS moderators. I also have no position to further, what will happen to the UK with Brexit will happen without any influence from me.
My comment was based purely on what you can see on any night on the local and national news reports. Maybe you should take more notice of crime reports in the media.
*edit* I also suggest you supply definitive evidence to make your claim verifiable too. *edit*
*further edit* By definitive evidence i suggest you show government and or police data and statistics, not newspaper incitements. *further edit*
This message was last edited by robertt8696 on 05/04/2017.
This message was last edited by robertt8696 on 05/04/2017.
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I'm also sorry to disappoint you PP, but I am very far removed from a racist or a person with racist views.
Its the second time I have had to pull you up on things like this, the last time was concerning anti gay comments, and now accusations of racist comments.
Are you begining to show the true face of EU ideals and values in your own little world?
Sort yourself out PP.
_______________________
Best wishes, Brian
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Perry, i also dont see how racists attempting to "further their position" has any influence over the Brexit negotiations. Immigration will always be part of the UK even after Brexit, and has nothing to do with Brexit in the way you are trying to infer.
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Robert,
As far as dogmatic politicians in the UK are concerned, I think there are still many politicians with good intent but somehow the system can become too " tribal ", too defensive, too blinkered to the wider perspective and in that process leaders lose the ability to establish that fine ( and fair) balance between protection of citizens best interests and sound economic business practice. Swinging from one extreme to another, each undoing specific areas of progress attributable to party political beliefs, is incredibly inefficient and highly frustrating for "ordinary people", hence growing disillusionment in the political "establishment".
Perhaps more political coalitions are required to establish greater balance, but I wouldn't write off all UK politicians!
As for the EU, there is too much power in the hands of the few ( mostly ideologs) in terms of the Commission where new initiatives and policies are created, too little accountability when policies fail, too much defensive intransigence to reform and remain flexible to counter significant compromising impacts on citizens.
Hence looking to the wider perspective we all really need trusted role models to achieve a greater balance, and with the advent of the internet where greater communications exist between citizens, where debate such as within this forum etc, what better way to advance reform and make our Politicians of all persuasions more accountable?
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pp
Check this out
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/albanian-drug-gang-manchester-wanted-10936079
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I will not be silenced for speaking out against racism or homophobia. If you are neither of these you cannot possibly be offended by what I say. Those who attempt to silence people who speak in favour of equality are the people who do not belong on this site. British Expats living in Spain or Egypt or Japan rely on the goodwill of the native people in their host country to protect them against racism EOS moderators know that to be a truism. People in the UK need to protect immigrants and refugees too.
Brexit has given people in the UK the false belief that being racist is okay. They imagine they are defending the country against East European gangsters or Muslim radicals from Africa or the Middle East. The truth is that the worst crimes being committed in the UK right now are violent attacks against harmless refugees (Croydon) by British thugs. Or the terror attack in Westminster which was carried out by a Brit born in Dartford or the British couple sentenced today for torturing, raping and holding hostage a vulnerable woman in unbelievable conditions for eight years.
When people try to stir up anti-eu feelings by saying they saw two Romanians acting suspicious or that they know someone who knows someone who overheard someone say that they heard that a Polish person did something criminal then they need to have the truth put to them very bluntly.
Brexit was supposed to make us better but is bringing out the worst in many. I have no problem having my contributions to this thread referred to EOS mods. I have no problems in EOS mods deleting my comments if they see fit. But as an immigrant and an expat I am not going to be frightened Into silence because we don't want to face the hard truth about how the British are giving up the moral high ground they once proudly occupied.
This message was last edited by perrypower1 on 05/04/2017.
This message was last edited by perrypower1 on 05/04/2017.
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