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Tadd1966 Scotland will not be able to simply change the rule's as you said, for people coming from the EU David Cameron tried to do that pre Brexit and the EU stopped him ..... the EU will allow a change of rule's but the change would also have to apply to the Scottish citizen's as well any ....EU member state must offer the same to other member States citizens as it gives to its own citizen's that's the rule's as they stand at the moment. This message was last edited by windtalker on 14/02/2017.
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Mickeyfinn,
You made another wrong generalisation I'm afraid when you suggested
"It is now clear after the Brexit vote that there exists a huge divide in British society. Not along political lines any longer but one brought by economic disparity.
The well off and comfortable generally speaking voted to remain. The less well-off and struggling voted to leave. I believe they did that not because they believed they would be better off outside the EU but because of the traditional resistance among many of a certain social class to any form of change."
as the actual map results show a quite different picture to the one you suggest as the mix was split across "well off and less well off".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
Leave polled the most strongly in 270 counting areas, with Remain coming first in 129.
The turnout was high at 72%, with more people turning out to vote than in last year's general election. Over 30 million people voted.
Overall the Leave campaign came top in nine of the UK's nations and regions, with the Remain campaign coming top in just three. The West Midlands had the highest vote share for Leave, with Scotland highest for Remain.
Nine areas voted by over 70% to leave, many of them in eastern England including Boston, South Holland and Great Yarmouth.
The Leave campaign triumphed right across England and Wales, winning in large northern cities including Sheffield, the Welsh valleys, across the Midlands including Birmingham, and the south and east of England.
The Remain campaign, in contrast, dominated in London, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The highest share of the vote achieved by the Remain camp was in Gibraltar, which is not shown on the map above.
Seven of the 10 areas with the highest share of the vote for Remain were in London, including Lambeth, Hackney and Haringey, all of which polled over 75% to stay in the European Union.
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Are you suggesting the geo populations you quote don't have diversity of social class within them? I have no issue with the statistics you quote only the assumptions
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Nobody can justify anything whether leaving the EU will make things better or worse
Then why tell everyone that it will make things worse if you have no idea why?
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Are we getting value for money?
No
Will we be able to better control any contributions or Spending?
Yes
Coukd we direct spending decisions better ourselves rather that EU officials in Brussels?
Don't mention the bus!
What will the EU do once any UK contributions are removed or reduced?
Can't see the EU spending less. So, either it borrows, takes more from current members or tries for a 'divorce' settlement.
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Wish they would put all edited messages in a bin where we could amuse ourselves looking for them.
I will be forever wondering what Elsie said.
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Hugh Man - As we've been asked nicely by the Mods not to do the immigration issue to death,
My post was not about immigration as such. I was suggesting there exists an endemic resistance to social change in Britain in some sectors of the population and across social classes.
That resistance has led to the calamity of Brexit and represents complete political failure by those in power both now and in the last thirty years.
Mickey, I wasn't suggesting your post was about immigration, I just thought another topic may be of interest.
Having said that, I do feel your ot others use of populism a little insulting as a modernist way of thinking.
You appear to live in the realm of Communism being equal for everyone, integration being an ideal and oerfect scenario.
Sadly, you are right in your other assertion that citizens need to change and move forward, my experience tells me we are keener to do this in parts of the UK than in some traditional parts of Europe, the rural Spanish and French are far more averse to change than the city dwellers, who become more used to integration.
Human nature though is akin to much of the animal kingdom in that our first priority at times of stress or troubles is to our family, our neighbourhood, or tribe our village, our town.
We are inherently defensive especially after a major financial recession and continued mass immigration from abroad.
This is not populism, it is self preservation to an extent.
Whilst economies are growing, and life is priductivecand easy, we are all only too happy to integrate and embrace the changes that apparently improve our lives with technology.
2007 changed much of that and people all over Europe, look at polls are in favour of restricting immigration from abroad.
Please don't put it down as populism, it is what it is and until jobscand work is provided in Europe or elsewhere many countries and individuals will revert to looking after what is closest and dearest to them.
Human nature
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It is sad how certain people demonstrate a strong tendency to generalise without due consideration of the many and widely varying reasons why people voted to leave. This was captured by the majority of live debates during the referendum campaign depending on the region from where they were transmitted, and demonstrates how diverse a mix of people we are across all social classes, which in the main is a positive to our evolved society, and perhaps why it's so important to safeguard our cohesion, our tolerant and caring society, and not let those with intent to "divide and rule" succeed?
We have already seen how negative fear mongering tactics were used in the lead up to Brexit, so to see it re-emerge in the guise of proliferating division, intransigence to seek out workable flexible solutions to uncomfortable realities, with a negative tendency to scapegoat and bully those who follow the democratic process not in line with their own federal principles, as opposed to striving for mutually beneficial outcomes, begs many questions of certain EU Commissioner's commitment to retaining cohesion amongst its member states citizens and how democratic they truly are.
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Tteedd
There you go again
your reputation as a forum troll gathers momentum
Nobody can justify if the uk will be better ir worse after brexit but guess what people are entitled to a view and an opinion based on many things
Shame when you forum trolls
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Tadd
If I make a statement, I normally use some fact or reasoning to back it up.
For instance: If I were to say that 'the sky will be orange tomorrow' I would probably follow it up by saying, 'because we are expecting a dust storm from the Sahara' or similar. If I just say 'the sky will be orange tomorrow' I would expect the response why?
I have challenged others several times on this thread. I suppose Micky the most. He either tries to answer or ignores me. But whoever I have challenged in the past, they have not normally replied by calling me names.
However I will take one of the traditional meanings of the word which is 'fishing for something', rather than the recent derogatory one. I'm fishing for truth or meaning.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 14/02/2017.
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Forums like this cannot do anything else but generalise points. The alternative would be a thousand word essay which I'm sure would never be read.
Social history is my subject so I understand that resistance to change is nothing new. It's a natural human emotion to believe life was better in some mythical childhood memory. Each generation also hand down that concept to others and so continuity flows.
People feel threatened by things they don’t understand. Political movements like the EU and globalisation brought social changes too rapidly for some sections of our societies to fully embrace the benefits. That leads to marginalisation and loss of hope for the future.
I agree it’s not just in Britain where this is taking place. The Brexit vote and Trump are the first manifestations of a political backlash. Reactions to frustration and social changes many think are unacceptable because the benefits are unequally shared. That may or not be the reality but it’s the popular perception which matters.
These popular perceptions are created in the minds of people by politicians and media with their own particular ambitions. It is very easy now to influence people who spend much of their time staring at screens instead of reading books.
Political life in western democracies has been reduced to the form of a giant coconut shy. Whoever puts their head over the parapet becomes a target for destruction. The EU is no different, all institutions striving for the public good are at risk. A section within European society and in other power blocks will not rest until it’s destroyed and then what will take its place?
History has the clues.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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** EDITED - Inciting **
This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 2/15/2017 9:48:00 AM.
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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** EDITED - **
This message was last edited by tteedd on 15/02/2017.
This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 2/15/2017 9:49:00 AM.
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Sorry, no Bob Hope as long as this thread continues.
_______________________
NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER: A mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others.
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Mickeyfinn,
I recognise the points you raise but what is equally important is to understand that citizens are reacting against realities that have been directly affecting their lives and we should never be dismissive by adopting a generalised approach without willingness to genuinely review the circumstances that have led to their immediate concerns and in that process again demonstrate a willingness to show flexibility , where relevant, to adequately resolve those concerns.
Sometimes this just requires a "tweeking" of a system, but where concerns reflect a far wider geographical base, it becomes essential to seek out a workable reform mechanism.
To ideologically defend any system that fails to heed the growing concerns of citizens in a dismissive or arrogant manner or without willingness to review and reform, to seek out mutually beneficial outcomes, only adds to the insecurities of citizens that you make reference to.
IMHO, The EU Commission have much to do in this regard if they wish to regain the trust and respect of its EU citizens.
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IMHO, The EU Commission have much to do in this regard if they wish to regain the trust and respect of its EU citizens.
IMHO, The UK govt have much to do in this regard if they wish to regain the trust and respect of its UK citizens.
The same applies in any country and you could even go as far down the "polictial chain" as you wish (e.g.local councillors) or any organsiation with an elected committee from govt to golf clubs
Mind you some on here will want full justification, blood tests, xrays, doctors report, police reports and concrete facts to back up opinons posted
Maybe starting every post with IMHO might satisfy them or simply communicate via PM
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Tadd,
The UK Govt are responding with ongoing reforms (and David Cameron stood down) but the EU Commissioners are not.
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What ongoing reforms (other than berxit) are the uK govt doing now?
Yes DC resigned becasue of Brexit which is an ongoing reform but the EU have not started any reforms yet. One commisioner has resigned and his replacement won't have long in the post
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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